Our HS does include HS level course taken in 8th grade on the transcript and they do count as HS courses for college admissions. That is something the OP’s guidance counselor should advise them on.
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Remember that what the HS counts does not mean the college counts it the same way. As a published example, UC does not count science classes taken in 8th grade as fulfilling their a-g requirements.
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As a senior who applied for a business major at top 20’s/schools with huge scholarships and only had 3 years of science, I say take the extra year. I absolutely HATE science, and so I only did honors bio, honors chem, forensic science (honors level). Skipped out on AP Chem, AP Bio, and Honors Physics (strongest sciences my school offers).
My counselor said max rigor for me, though. I’m 3rd in my class, was fine elsewhere with rigor. I have noticed though with a lot of major full-tuition and full-ride scholarships that schools want strong rigor, even if it’s outside of your interests. I truly think not having that 4th year of science hurt me. I wish I would have done Honors Physics.
I haven’t heard back from any of the super super hard schools I applied to (like Harvard, Stanford, Vandy, Duke) so I’m not sure what they will think of my course load, but I was deferred from UChicago EA, accepted into Purdue CS (never even took CS courses at my school like dual credit which we have), and then I got into Notre Dame. I don’t remember what the common data set says for those schools, but at this point I think I’m just getting lucky. I think they could see through what my guidance counselor put.
That 8th grade course probably won’t count for some schools, and people I know from other schools across the country almost all have experience with physics. It may be absolute HELL but I would urge your daughter to take it. I so wish I would have just taken it, because now I’m looking at common data sets and seeing rigor as super important, or statistics from my schools that 82% of students took 4 years of science. Like the 82% statistic is from Washington and Lee, where I applied for a full-ride scholarship. Definitely doesn’t help my case to be in that bottom 18% when the scholarship goes to students in the top 10% of admitted students.
It also depends too on what schools your daughter is looking at. I think 3 years of science is fine at schools like Villanova, Richmond, UMiami…didn’t hurt me I don’t think as I was accepted to all those. Only taking 3 years though of science is one of my largest regrets––I would take 4 years if I had to do it all over again.
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A few thoughts…
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Did she get A grades in the high school science courses she took (and yes, I know she only halfway through this one).
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The middle school course will likely not be counted by the colleges.
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For those top schools, she will be competing for admissions with folks who do have four years of high school science (taken in high school….not middle school).
All that being said…if she will have a varied and well rounded list of college applications…not all reachy schools…then I think she is going to get accepted someplace. Build her college application list from the bottom up. Find those sure thing and affordable colleges that she likes first. Then add the others.
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I’d take physics and the shark tank class. AP CS isn’t very rigorous so isn’t a substitute for physics.
Then I’d remind the GC come application time that she challenged herself by taking physics in order to be well rounded not to be admitted to a college.
Or take what she wants and accept that it might harm her apps at some schools. That’s a fine choice too, as long as she’s okay with the safeties.
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I just need to add….there are plenty of wonderful colleges outside of the top 50 that do not require four years of high school science.
This student needs to look for options like these.
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All other things equal, rigor rigor rigor for this level of schools. That said, this might put more pressure on SAT math to substantiate quantitative reasoning skills.
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My 2 cents…I don’t think it really matters that much. The admission process from these schools are ridiculously subjective vary widely from school to school. Taking one course over another really won’t make or break anything. It’s all purely speculation at this point. Just have her do what makes her happy and see what happens.
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Yeah, I don’t think my test scores helped much. I submitted a 1460 SAT (740 RW, 720 M) to schools like ND, Chicago, and the others. But then I got a 34 ACT in December (36 R, 36 E, 33 S, 31 M) and submitted those to Stanford, Duke, Vandy, Harvard, and updated my other schools. The math is subpar though for all of them…guess I’ll have to see. There are so many other factors at play though too, my area never really sends anyone to ivies.
Also just remembered my two grades that brought me below a 4.0 UW were a B+ in honors chem one semester, and then an A- in honors precalc/trig. So not the best there either as those are science and math. I wish I would have taken honors physics though, as I know people who were comparable to me academically getting an A or A- so I could have scraped by.
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But you’re not selling yourself as a STEM, so math just needs to be “good enough” IMHO…
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Fair point about D22 being a legacy, it seems to be a thumb on the scale for UVa OOS. I truly don’t think her EC is a “spike” for elite admissions, as it didn’t result in any quantifiable awards or achievements or publicity of any kind. It’s just unusual.
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Hi! I’m a senior right now and I had a similar dilemma at the end of my junior year when selecting classes. I had completed my three-year world languages requirement for graduation that year, and although I got straight A’s in my French classes, I decided not to continue with the language in my senior year. This was because I planned to take 5 other classes (5 AP, 1 student newspaper class) in subjects I was passionate about, and felt like a seventh Honors class would be too much for my senior year.
So, I dropped Honors French, and made a note on my Common App in the ‘additional information’ section, stating that I dropped French to take AP Art History, a topic I was passionate about, and that I intended to continue languages in college.
I can’t speak for its effectiveness in terms of college admissions, as I haven’t heard back from everywhere I’ve applied (I was admitted EA OOS to UMich, if that helps with the T-20/T-50 schools context), but I can say that not taking French allowed me to dedicate more energy to my other classes, and earn A’s for my first semester. Additionally, not taking a seventh class allowed me to dedicate more time to my college applications.
However, I know that sciences and world languages are different when it comes to college admissions. I don’t plan to be a STEM major, and my schedule this year is well-balanced with STEM and non-STEM classes. If she is intending to be a non-STEM major, demonstrating that she can succeed in difficult math and science classes shows her willingness to challenge herself and succeed.
I don’t think that her not taking Physics will be the reason she may be rejected from these schools. The process is so random that you can’t really tie it down to a single determining factor. I have a friend who was admitted ED to WashU and isn’t taking a science course this year, but I also know people who haven’t received a single acceptance who are taking heavy, diverse course loads. Colleges are looking for well-rounded classes, not well-rounded students, so crafting an application that showcases your strengths and characteristics is really the most any applicant can do.
I hope this helps!
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That’s true, but with business as my major I feel like math should be stronger. I did accounting for some schools that offered business, and then econ for those other schools except HOD for Vandy. So the question is if the 720 was adequate…I’m not Asian but also not a URM.
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Wow some great advice here. Thank you all. I know what she “should do” (take Physics) but I also know that it has to be her decision and understand the possible consequences.
I personally don’t think it would the the sole reason she doesn’t get into the two T21-T30 school she is considering applying to ED.
She has a nice story to tell and strong academic results that put her in the middle 50 percent of accepted students -but there are a lot of kids just like her.
We are meeting with her GC via Zoom this week for her junior year college discussion - I am going to ask him about what he is going to say about her rigor. Very curious as it’s a very competitive public school with lots of AP options.
I just truly want to believe that you let your kid do what they enjoy (encouraging them to appropriately challenge themselves) and it will work itself out in the long run.
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You’ve received great advice. My youngest saw me reading this thread and she wondered the same thing as me…competitive HS that doesn’t require that the first three years of HS science be bio, chem and physics? Our district requires all students take those three courses.
My eldest and youngest did/do not take an AP science senior year, though they each chose a science course.
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A more common HS graduation requirement is bio and either chem or physics. Or a life science and a physical science and then a 3rd year of either life/physical. Since OP mentioned Earth Science, my guess is she lives in NYS, where the typical progression is Earth Science, Bio, Chem.
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I grew up in NYS and even when I was in school, in the stone ages, college bound students took bio, chem, and physics. And to make extra spicy, if you were accelerated, you could go straight to the APs. ; )
@crankymom Same was true for our D’s HS - some level of bio, chem, and physics were required for graduation. She went to a college prep HS where everyone went on to 4 year college.
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Just replying on a side thought you mentioned. Being in the middle 50% of accepted students generally is not enough to be competitive absent other hooks. The bottom 25% is taken up with special categories, and it is largely the job of the unhooked to place in the top 25% and thus raise the middle scores. Back when scores mattered.
I never knew anyone who didnt take hs physics.
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In our school, very few take physics at all! My son and his friends found a book and taught themselves for AP Physics and got 5’s while the teacher slept during class (he had just had twins). I think only 4 kids took the class. And there was only AP physics.
@Glow271 I PM’ed you.
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It probably depends on the area with physics being a requirement. I live in almost the middle of nowhere, and attend a private school. Nobody really takes physics…there was 1 honors class this year and then 1 academic. The teacher is pretty awful, knows the material but can’t teach it. I know two people in the top 10 that dropped it at the semester.
Then again, my school isn’t CRAZY competitive in terms of college admissions. We usually send a couple kids to Notre Dame and that’s about it. Sometimes the val or sal will go to Duke, Vandy, maybe an ivy. Nobody really does amazing extracurriculars though either, everyone basically goes to 1 of our 3 major state schools.
So I was never encouraged really to take physics, and knowing my counselor was going to put max rigor for me I didn’t really care. But I think colleges actually investigate to see if an applicant is doing max rigor. My counselor only put it for me because she knew I wanted to do business and not pre-med, and I maxed out all the business courses at my school and did even more at local colleges. I never touched our two science APs, so it probably was noticed.
Might be a regional thing, I don’t know.
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