Skipping a grade in a HS subject--advantage or not?

Parents Forum
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<p>Jolynne:</p>

<p>Community college courses vary a lot in terms of quality. It is very possible that a college algebra course is essentially a remedial class, aimed at students who failed to master it while in high school. </p>

<p>There are some math enrichment programs out there, for example the Bay Area Math Circle, the Boston-Area Math Circle, etc... these are usually weekend programs. They are more likely to be found in cities than in suburbs. Schools are not necessarily aware of these programs, so a little local sleuthing is necessary.
The Math competitions in high school can also provide enrichment opportunities. Your son could join the Math Club at his school, or, if there is not one, he could try to found one with the help of a math teacher willing to act as a coach. The Club could prepare for competitions and/or work on interesting problems. The best known competitions are AMC and AMTS, which can lead all the way to the Olympiads. The Harvard-MIT Math Tournament, the Stanford Math Tournament (both modelled on the Rice Math Tournament, as Texas pointed out) allow high schoolers to compete in different math fields. I know the HMMT has published past problems.<br>
Some of the teams that enter competitions are virtual teams, with members contacting one another via email. Such a team was organized to compete in the HMMT where it flattened all other teams, including TJHSS, Exeter, Andover, and many other strong teams.</p>

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<p>Marite,</p>

<p>So, do you think that it's not really beneficial, in terms of getting into a competative college, to take college classes (as long as the student is ready, etc.)? Just curious about your post above... :-)</p>

<p>Thanks for the lateral idea, Donemom!</p>

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<p>If your S can take standard math classes (usually through Calculus) at his high school, he should do so in preference to taking the same courses at the community college. If, however, he takes Calculus in 10th and 11th grade and wants to take more math, he can do so at the community college (and by then, chances are that the course will not be seeking to fill holes in the students' high school education).
In general, colleges prefer students to be taking AP classes to community college classes because the AP classes have a standard and well known curriculum, and the AP exam score can be used to compare students from different schools. Colleges, however, especially community colleges, vary a lot in their curricular rigor and grading practices. It would seem that your GC does not have a high opinion of your local community college.
If you live in CA, different rules may apply, as the community college classes may count for credit in the UC system.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
am thinking a nice compromise might be to take some college classes in math, beyond the traditional alg II--precal--calc progression. Maybe during summer after 9th and/or 10th grade.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>if you are thinking summer, there are wonderful summer math programs out there. PROMYS, USA-Canada Mathcamp, Ross Young are the best known. PROMYS and Ross Young delve heavily into number theory. Mathcamp is more of a hodge-podge of math realted subjects, most of it outside the usually sequence.</p>

<p>good info on math camps, as well as competitions, at <a href="http://www.artofproblemsolving.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.artofproblemsolving.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Donemom

[quote]
Marite: once my son had exhausted the district's available math courses in 8th, there was no further requirement on the part of our high school to take math

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Wow, you are lucky... Both our districts did not count anything taken in middle school towards the graduation requirements, and I know that some districts do not like accelerating because "then there will be not enough classes for the kid to take in high school", and he will not have enough credits to get the high school diploma!</p>

<p>Our current district also does not accept either community college or EPGY credits (in fact, there's "no outside credits" rule with the exception of one particular hs/university program). So, S had his EPGY courses listed under the "notes" section in his transcript, but did not get any credits for that... That's why it is so important to discuss everything with the school district beforehand. </p>

<p>Jolynne: Discrete Math might be another interesting course from outside the traditional sequence... Many community colleges have it, but in some cases it's a very basic course.</p>

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<p>Marmat103-So interesting to hear about how different school districts handle things. And you're so right about discussing everything with the school ahead of time. We made sure that my son's h.s. courses taken in elementary/middle school would not only be on his transcript, but would be counted in his average and weighted just as if they were taken in h.s. However, we never asked to have the EPGY courses on the h.s. transcript, (because he got no h.s. credit for them) so we had them listed on my son's resume and as I said previously, the Stanford transcript was sent separately. I really feel our district was terrific in the way this was all handled...I may not have mentioned this, but my son was given individual tutoring provided by the district( a math teacher came to his school 3 times a week to work with him) beginning in third grade--it wasn't til 7th that he was bussed over to the high school. And because he did the EPGY from home during h.s., he took a full load of other courses, allowing him to substitute computer and research classes for the math.</p>

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<p>Donemom, I agree that students need to learn study skills but I often wonder how an admissions officer views an A in Calculus versus a C in Calculus. Does he/she think - this student is good in Math and the C student isn't - or does he/she think - this student turned in all his homework and this student didn't! When my son went to a Catholic prep school for his freshman year, he lost 10 points for having a stray pencil mark on (no kidding - so light that I had to put on my reading glasses to see it) on a term paper. I wonder, does the admissions officer know that a stray pencil mark caused my son to get a B instead of an A! Maybe it would be better to have a grade in the subject and a grade in the student's homework/organizational (dare we say maturity) skills? Anyway, my point was that practicing the manipulation of equations was important. </p>

<p>I agree with marite who noted that the CC math courses may not be as rigorous as the ones given in honors high school courses - that seems to be our experience. I also agree that students who stretched themselves and took college level courses at institutions like Harvard and BU did not necessarily have better luck in admissions.</p>

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<p>Turning in a less than pristine paper is not the same thing as being weak in the manipulation of equations. Colleges have no way of knowing by what criteria a teacher awarded a certain grade to a student. Personally, I would have raised a stink over the grading policy of your son's teacher, but that's an issue for the school and the parents, not for the colleges. In fact, this would be an argument for taking college classes as I doubt that a college prof would lower a grade for something as extraneous--in all senses of the word--as a stray pencil mark on a paper. </p>

<p>I did not say that students who took courses at Harvard or BU did not necessarily have better luck in admissions. Around here, many students do take classes at the Extension School; but they do so because they run out of classes to take at their high school. They're not taking College Algebra, but courses such as MVCalc (53 high schoolers out of a class of 83). Having MVCalc on one's transcript is surely more impressive than merely having AP-Calc. And for all the huffing about grade inflation at Harvard, getting an A or A- in one (or more) of its courses is more impressive than getting similar grades in high school classes.</p>

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<p>a random thought on teacher's grading on homework submission, etc....</p>

<p>I also had kids who wouldn't do "stupid" assignments, hated keeping binders, felt that as long as they could ace the test, the rest was busy-work.... but as I watch both of them in "real" jobs this summer, I'm glad they both had teachers who penalized them for the stupid things even if they got the right answer. The world of grownups is filled with such stuff.... the IRS wants the AGI calculated THEIR way, not yours, and it's due by the 15th of April, not when you remember. My bank reserves the right to foreclose on my house if my mortgage payment is two weeks late... my boss makes capricious deadlines all the time, and why is it that he likes the Powerpoints going east/west not north/south, regardless of the topic or the graphics????</p>

<p>That's life, and I'm glad my kids had teacher's who gave them B's instead of A's when they didn't follow the rules, even though in my mind they were the smartest kids to have walked the halls of the school. My son, who had to be physically rolled out of bed in the morning during HS manages to get himself shaved, dressed in a coat and tie, and onto public transportation early in the morning... why? 'cause his boss said so.</p>

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<p>marite - we definitely raised a stink and transferred back to our town's school after that and a few other ridiculous things, not to mention the size of the classes and the nightmare of commuting. But, that is a long story. </p>

<p>I was not comparing the equation issue with the stray pencil mark issue but was commenting on how some teachers overemphasize homework or organization in the grade, at least in my opinion, but, more importantly, that grades are not necessarily a reflection of one's ability or success with a particular subject matter. If we grade students in a specific subject, say, "Math", what percentage of that grade is the ability to "do math"? If I asked one student what she got in Biology (and I know I am not supposed to ask) I would assume she was great at Biology if she got an A. OTOH, I would assume that someone who got a C struggled a bit with this subject matter and might wonder if science was his or her game. Think about how that C student would be counseled regarding future coursework, future college aspirations? But, if that C is because the student got an F on a fabulous project he turned in a day late and this mistake was averaged in with the only test given that quarter.....how would anyone looking at grades know it was largely the late paper and not the student's ability that yielded the C? Kids' futures are being determined by someone's review of their grades (along with a few other things of varying interest to varying colleges) - shouldn't it be clear that Math is Math and stray pencil marks, late papers, etc. are, well, just stray pencil marks, or late papers. These are other problems. Maybe I am not saying this very well - it would be more accurate for teachers to grade on knowledge of the subject matter and find another way to "grade" students in neatness, organization and timeliness. Yes, these are important attributes and necessary for success in anything but these often reflect maturity and not ability or accomplishment. Most people do not think about organization, timeliness or neatness when they look at grades, they think about the subject matter. </p>

<p>I know two boys who took math courses at Harvard after blowing through their high school options, one is my nephew. It might be impressive on a transcript but neither one got into any of the schools of their choice yet other students from their high schools who did not go beyond their high school's courses did. Obviously, there are many factors here but I don't think parents should presume that it is an important step if one wants to be accepted by a very selective school.</p>

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<p>Riley:</p>

<p>You raise an issue of grading policy. These will vary from teacher to teacher, from college prof to college prof. Many profs dock half a grade for each day a paper is turned in late; some refuse to accept papers after a certain date; and some do not penalize or penalize very lightly even if the paper is a week late. Even in college, there is some acknowledgment of effort, though I doubt it is as explicit or as important a part of the grade as in high school.
In my French schools, we had a separate entry in our transcript for behavior. Teachers' comments were included as well. " Performance leaves something to be desired;" "scatterbrained;" "daydreams in class." Yup, that was me. I was bored.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
it would be more accurate for teachers to grade on knowledge of the subject matter and find another way to "grade" students in neatness, organization and timeliness.

[/quote]
That's the type of grading system that I had back in the old days in the L.A. city schools. You would receive a letter grade for the work (A to F) and an E, S, or U for both "Habits of good work" and "Habits of Cooperation." The ideal report card would have a series of AEE's on it. Because I was something of a "talker" in class, I think some of my teachers delighted in giving me A-S-S's.</p>

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<p>LOL - I actually think that would teach more to the students to have separate grades. I am thinking mostly of my 9th , now 10th grader. We take great pains to go over his grades with him so that he can see the influence of a late assignments or lost homework. We learned this the hard way when first semester grade 9 he told us he was getting all As but actually had 2 Cs and 3 Bs. He was clueless. He aced all of the exams.....but.....he was missing homework, had late assignments, etc. We literally sit down each quarter and do the math because otherwise, he thinks he is doing well based on tests, or, after getting a "C", he thinks that he is bad at the subject when he really just needs to improve his organizational skills. Sometimes self awareness is a long time coming.</p>

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<p>Late papers show a lack of caring and respect for the school in my opinion. "Oh well, I am special so I can turn it in whenever". And yeah points should be taken off for late papers. That kid had extra time to do the homework. Is that fair for kids to managed to get it done on time? If there were circumstances, ie an emergency, that caused the papers to be late, that is one thing, but to not be able to finish it, not be able to find it, or having left it at home is not an excuse.</p>

<p>In math, every mark means something, and a stray mark can be important. </p>

<p>As for science, many mistakes can be made, important mistakes, from sloppy notes and sloppy writing. </p>

<p>As for the fabulous project turned in late, why was it late? If it was so important, why didnt the student get it done? A deadline is a deadline, and most of the time, the students are given days if not WEEKS to do it. Maybe an F was harsh, but for instance, when my Ds physics teacher gave them a project over a weekend, he said, if it is not here on MONDAY, it is an F. Turning it in on Tuesday, an F. </p>

<p>Now imagine if your child worked like a dog and turned in project on time and someone used and extra day or two to make theirs better...or say, got an extra hour to do the same test (not considering lds), or was told, well, you get extra time on your homework tonight, cause gee, you are special?</p>

<p>It plays both ways. Kids get to know what teachers expect very quickly.</p>

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<p>My S's cousin has borderline Asperger's. He is extremely bright but has major problems with organization. He frequently turns in his homework late, even if it is in his knapsack, all completed (and perfect).</p>

<p>There are teachers who impose unreasonable deadlines. Yes, they tell students well in advance that there will be a special project, but they don't tell them what it will be, so there's no way the students can start on them. One of my S's teachers was told several times, well in advance, that he was graduating early, and therefore his grades would be due at the same time as the graduating seniors'. About ten days before the due date, she announced the topic of the special project, which the juniors would have another month to complete. My S had a college final and a college paper as well as the finals for his other high school classes that week, plus the special project: a 15-page paper with 10 primary sources and 5 secondary sources, plus an oral presentation, plus a board game (he managed to avoid the board game). We haven't seen his final transcript, so we don't know what grade he got in that class or on that paper (which she did not return).
He could have blown off the assignment; after all, he'd already been admitted to college. Unfortunately, his mom didn't let him blow it. :)</p>

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<p>blossom - well, naturally, but imagine the kids who are counseled away from honors and AP courses because they were a bit immature and still getting the idea that accountability comes with life. Maybe there used to be a chance to catch up later but that doesn't seem to be true anymore, thus these students often miss their opportunity to develop their cognitive strengths over some relatively minor organizational issues. BTW, I am not talking about willful students who don't keep binders because they don't want to - but students who struggle with the organizational pieces, like my son.</p>

<p>I hate to say this and I know I will be flamed but cognition and creativity are much more valuable to society than filing (ugh, I hate those binders kids have to keep at 280lbs of loose papers), paperclipping and even turning everything in on time although we obviously need people who are skilled at both. Survival requires us to meet some deadlines (IRS!) so we learn to do that but focusing on deadlines, filing, perfectly organized papers, and the other substructures of "work" is not necessarily consistent with excellence, creativity, great problem solving, intelligence or success. For every IRS there is an organization. an employer, an investor, a patient, etc., willing to wait a day to hear a better idea or learn of a creative solution or, even for comprehensive and thorough work - why shut down thinking for filing or an artifical "deadline". Plus, I hate to bring up people like Einstein who never wore socks or Bill Gates who did not feel the need to dot every "i" or be accountable to his parents or instructors and stay in school. In my opinion schools are set up for one type of student, which is why so many honor grades or top 10 students are girls (no, don't flame, it's true). I am not an organized person (yes, my poor son gets it from me) but I have a doctorate, manage a multi-million dollar budget, and have a lot of responsibility and accountability in my position. But, my desk has piles and piles, sometimes I have to dig, and I have been known to turn in a late report or two. Despite these weaknesses, I am much more effective in my position than most and others come to me for my knowledge and skills, but, definitely not my ability to keep a binder. Fortunately, I have help - someone who works for me who is really good at organization! There is a role for both of us. I hear what you are saying -that we have to learn to get to work on time but this is not the same as grading the organization of a binder and calling it Math. You can see I have strong opinions on this.</p>

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<p>If you read this website, you will find a ton of kids who suddenly are doing badly in school because of bad organization. When the work was easier, the notes, the papers, weren't so important, but as the work gets tougher, they are lost. </p>

<p>When it comes to a class such as physics, which uses ALOT of math, having good math notes is very important. </p>

<p>I am not saying that teachers are doing picky things, its just sometimes things we may not see as important, can be. </p>

<p>If you are doing a science lab, and don't take good notes, the whole thing may be for naught.</p>

<p>If you know a project is coming up, but as of yet don't have a deadline, start</p>

<p>School builds upon previous lessons and skills, and if by 10, 11, 12 grade, the student still can't take good notes, still can't keep homework organized, still turns stuff in late, is it suddenly going to happen once they step on campus?</p>

<p>Many kids who had no problems in highschool get to college and struggle</p>

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<p>citygirlsmom - my son has an IQ over 130 but a processing speed (a visual motor problem that impacts his ability to put down in physical writing what he needs to say, and dysgraphia) at the 9th percentile, as well as a dx of ADHD. I did not believe in ADHD until I finally had my brilliant but seemingly uncooperative child evaluated and lived through several years of perplexing academics and behavior. My son frequently completes a homework assignment, laboring over it while getting up to pat the dog 100 times or clicking his pen 10,000 times, only to put it in the wrong binder. If it isn't in the wrong binder to start with, he forgets to bring his binder to class. Kids with ADHD often have significant organizational and memory problems. Teachers don't allow him to get it out of the locker and turn it in. You may believe that he will learn, if given an F, but he does not learn because it is about neurobiology and not behavior management. We are working with him to develop compensatory strategies but it is not easy - we are on the outside looking in - we can make sure he has his homework, his project, etc, but we can't be there when it is time to turn it in. His test scores are so high that he is not really eligible for help at school, at least help that will matter. Most teachers think they can improve his ability to remember by giving him zeros - well, he's 15.5 and so far, that hasn't helped. Neat papers are simply not possible for him - when he types he can be on a level playing field with the other students but writing an essay in class by pen or pencil creates a messy piece of writing, and what appears to many who don't understand, to be careless or disrespectful work. The neuropsychologist told us she has never seen such a huge split between IQ and his processing speed scores (which is not understanding as some might think). It took me a long time to really understand this - I don't expect you to understand it at all. But, the idea that he should be penalized for not being able to write neatly, or that others would be prejudiced against him for having his much loved project in a different binder, is one of those things that speaks to the problem of inflexibility. Your comments are just what we encountered in the beginning and, sadly, we agreed with the teachers then, whom we thought knew best, and we beat up on our kid as well. I don't know what his future holds but he has extraordinary strengths in many areas but being neat or keeping his stuff organized is going to be a real challenge for him, for the rest of his life.</p>

<p>Stray Mark - Cover of History Paper, nothing to do with Math, or content. This mark is so slight - it is ridiculous and I have saved it. It was the first and only time I told my son (older) that the teacher was wrong.</p>

<p>My younger son works like a dog and then some on all of his projects and homework - he isn't doing it last minute or trying to gain a day. It takes him longer to do just about everything because he is internally disrupted on a continual basis. Yet, he had the highest score on the biology SAT II of his honors class (our first SAT II) so what to do with him, hmm? citygirlsmom, he cries when he discovers that he is missing homework because he just doesn't realize it and it's always too late when he does.</p>

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<p>In my Ds school, the teachers would periodically check notes, binders, folders, etc. The first few times, the kids were told hey, good work, or hey, lets get it neater, like it is important to you.</p>

<p>Then the teachers would sometimes give a "pop" inspection. It was for a grade. Kids who were disorganized managed to learn how to get organized. And, in some ways were LESS stressed. They learned to spend a few minutes each day.</p>

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<p>I do understand ADHD. I do get it. I promise. And, I mentioned LDs in my earlier post. I am sorry if I am coming off as harsh. If you had mentioned ADHD, my suggestions would have been quite different. WHen I talk about highschool kids and organization, I think you know I was referring to those in the middle of the bell curve, kids without "issues and learning differences".</p>

<p>My Ds went to a little parochiol school, who took off 5 points if a comma or period was missing. Two missed punctuations would make an excellent paper a B. It was so frustrating. But you know, after two papers home, and me saying yeah, its unfair, but you were warned by the teacher, so now you know. </p>

<p>As for the marks on papers, kids were turning in messy papers and they were warned that messiness was going to be points off.</p>

<p>I was very frustrated because this school taught to readers, which my older D was, but younger D wasn't so much. She read the lessons to herself in the tape recorder. She came home every night and retyped her class notes onto the computer. She taught ME the lessons. Because the teachers way of teaching was read this and the test is tomorrow. It was terrible. But D figured out what she needed to do in order to compensate for the bad teachers.</p>

<p>Now, she has some systems in place. It may be having a planner with each detail on it for each class- double checking each morning to make sure she hasn't forgotten anything Double checking again in the car. Taking an extra ten minutes a night to be sure she is prepared. Those habits have gottenengrained and they work.</p>

<p>As for what you said, I was referring to kids who just couldn't be bothered to take any time, or who think, well, I ace the tests, so I don't need to do what the teacher has specifically asked me to. I think this is stupid, so I am not going to do it. That is who I was referring to, and I am sorry you didn't realize that.</p>

<p>I would never assume any child had ADHD, or a learning disability, because their parent said they were disorganized. How would anyone know that?</p>

<p>That is something that needs to be tested for, which you have done. </p>

<p>My point is that you complained about certain things at school, and then you bring in the ADHD. </p>

<p>Please do not judge me because I have no clue as I was responding to your complaints about schools and teachers, not to your child's specific situation.</p>