"Slipping into Irrelevance: When Exeter Reduces Rigor" - What do you think?

Prep School Admissions
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<p>This is a definitely interesting discussion and dilemma for Exeter. My opinion is that if you are going to attend Exeter or even apply to the school you should know it well enough to realize that it is one of most rigorous high schools in the country and entails A LOT of work and effort. An education at PEA is obviously going to be stressful but applicants should realize this and not attend if they feel like they aren’t ready to handle the pressure. There are hundreds of students who were waitlisted or even rejected who could handle the workload at Exeter without complaining about the rigor. I realize that the Saturday classes must suck at times but if the students are really going to complain about them, wouldn’t it make more sense to apply to schools that didn’t offer them?</p>

<p>If the school really wants to reduce depression and anxiety amongst the student body then the admission office should work on selecting students who have demonstrated academic skills AND who have the capacity to handle and cope with large amounts of stress. There should be some kind of short essay question which asks students how they handle times when they are overwhelmed with balancing academic and extra-curriculars or at least put something on the recommendation forms for teachers to fill out their perception of how the applicant is able to handle stress. Anything to weed out the students who can’t handle the demands ingrained in the Exeter culture.</p>

<p>Edit: I agree 100% with Parlabane’s last paragraph.</p>

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<p>okay, so I think I’ve mastered logging out and logging back in with the correct user name, yeah!</p>

<p>Now, here’s my point: Exeter is not the Navy Seals of Boarding Schools. Let’s not get carried away. I posit that there are many hard working students at all prep schools who challenge themselves rigorously in academics and sports and music, etc. whom you might refer to as “seals” at every institution.</p>

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<p>RBGG: nice to hear someone familiar with the school note that PEA doesn’t “stand alone” in every way. I certainly don’t want to downplay the seriousness of the issue–as apart of broader BS culture–but it does get weary to continue, year after year, to hear PEA students/alums complain about how theirs is absolutely the MOST grueling experience anywhere. By refusing to acknowledge that kids at other institutions also grind out their hours–but maybe somehow also find effective methods of stress relief and humor?–the “woe is me” fraternity becomes an entirely self-referential discourse, with little currency either to those in the know (the PEA sneetches with stars upon thars) or the rest of us (without). :D</p>

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<p>RBGG - other than a therapeutic boarding school, I’ve never heard of a school where 25% of the student body seeks counseling. That’s what makes me use the SEAL analogy. I agree that there are tons of other students at other fantastic boarding schools who challenge themselves with the most rigorous courses and after-school activities. It’s just that I don’t believe those same schools have 25% of their students in counseling. Something is unique about Exeter.</p>

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<p>@PelicanDad, I hear ya.</p>

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<p>Don’t fix it if it ain’t broken. :D</p>

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<p>I found the following through Google: [Ivy</a> League students flock to therapists | Yale Daily News](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2002/mar/26/ivy-league-students-flock-to-therapists/]Ivy”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2002/mar/26/ivy-league-students-flock-to-therapists/).</p>

<p>Same writer: [For</a> some, Yale is a mental health risk | Yale Daily News](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2002/mar/28/for-some-yale-is-a-mental-health-risk/]For”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2002/mar/28/for-some-yale-is-a-mental-health-risk/)</p>

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<p>Pelican Dad: My sense is that most of the kids at Exeter–some who post here regularly and my kid, for example–also find the woe is me attitude over the top, and just roll their eyes when yet another “We work too hard/we don’t work hard enough” editorial surfaces." </p>

<p>Parlabane. Based on the little we know from the original article, that 25% of students receiving counseling could include juniors and seniors seeking advice about colleges. However, even if it is all mental health related counseling, there is absolutely, certainly, NO stat about 25% of students needing counseling specifically because they are, in your words, “clinically miserable.” Jeez. </p>

<p>From the Exeter website:</p>

<p>“Our licensed professional counselors work with students around a variety of normative adolescent developmental issues and other mental health concerns. Students may seek help around issues such as adjustment and homesickness, stress management, depression, anxiety, grief and loss, eating concerns, substance use, sexuality, and relationship and family issues”</p>

<p>Responding to D’Andrew’s suggestion that we brainstorm: I think about the divorce rates and even higher infidelity rates and how those things affect children I know; about students being given the choice of drug/alcohol counseling over suspension/expulsion; about parents who continue to struggle with addiction and the effect that has on their teens; about how difficult it is to be a gay teen in America; about the early pressures kids feel to be sexually active; about all the medications we give children these days to “solve” their problems; about the tornados and earthquakes and other calamities affecting many students in that geographically diverse school population; and yes, about the high stresses that come with a highly competitive and challenging academic environment…and it wouldn’t surprise me at all to learn that a quarter of all kids at Exeter might be referred by a caring adviser or teacher to a counselor at some point in their four years at the school…for one of many reasons. Not because they’re miserable; because they need someone to talk to, and the school supplies a number of well-trained ears.</p>

<p>It doesn’t strike me as stupid or blindly fan clubbish to feel glad my kid goes to a school with a strong counseling staff that can meet those kinds of needs. It feels realistic about the lousy state of the world in general. Won’t stop Parlabane and I from disagreeing about Exeter though.</p>

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<p>Classical - I respect Exeter. I would want something different for my own kid, but that’s just a personal viewpoint. I think it’s great that you and countless other parents and students have loved (do love) the School. It’s one of the truly great secondary education choices in the world; that’s undeniable.</p>

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<p>Personally I think Exeter is “fine” although like any institution there’s room to improve and it’s a meaningful discussion among the current students, alums and the school admistration. If it’s true that more students are suffering “depression and anxiety” in a school like Exeter than those in peer schools, I think it’s because there’s a high concentration of the most motivated and capable students competiting with each other. Many of them used to be “big fish in smaller ponds” and have high expectations of themselves. The competitive mode is a natural tendency, and it’s exacerbated greatly by the increasing competitiveness of college admission. The school can definitely do more to address the concern but I don’t think decreasing academic rigor is the answer, unless instead of - say 1/3 of the class - 2/3 are getting A’s from now on, which I think would effectively change the “mood” of the students. I don’t think they’ll do that and if they do then the “slipping into irrevalence” would be a true possibility. Just my 2c.</p>

<p>As for people outside the school or propsective students/families, knowing and preparing for a school like Exeter from early on is a good exercise. It’ll be tough. There’s no doubt about it, and it is certainly not for everyone.</p>

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<p>The stress and drive to counseling is not limited to Exeter. I find it is unfortunately a function of the nature of BS, which is to have teens responsible in an adult-like way that is often asking for too much too early. They are not mini-adults like in college (where even there many can’t handle). Rather there should be a better recognition that these are still developing adolescents who need adult in parentis loco. In my S’s experience (not at Exeter), adults are there once they fall, for sure, and to enforce rules, but I wish there was more upfront investment by adults to avoid getting to a point of stress, need for counseling, or after they decide alcohol/drugs are the answer. A contrarian thought for BS-believers, but a reality nonetheless.</p>

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<p>

I agree, and I agree that’s a rather common problem in many BS’s.</p>

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<p>I had the opportunity to sit in two classes during the spring revisit at Exeter, one math class and one physics class. Most students were uppers and seniors. In both classes there were two to three students who never talked during the entire time (unless specifically asked by the teacher). The discussions at most time were dominated by three to four students. I talked to other parents afterwards and during lunch time. Many of them had similar observations. </p>

<p>I was wondering if those kids who seldom participated in the classroom are the ones who are prone to seek counseling. I can imagine a kid spending 2, 3 or 4 hours on their math or physical sciences homework but still cannot grasp the concept before the class, thus getting distressed, whereas he/she may need only one hour to finish the homework if it was already taught. </p>

<p>For all Exonians out there, please chime in but don’t be defensive. I have real personal interest in this discussion.</p>

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<p>sometimes the kids who talk most actually have the least to say. still waters run deep. but, yes, it is unfortunate that some really bright and well prepared students are not always full participants in harlness discussions. however, remember that you had a snapshot of just one day. on the next day, it was likely the case that there were some role reversals as to who were the most active harkness participants.</p>

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<p>I would guess that to judge a class’s participation pattern, you would have to visit it for several days. Kind of goes together with the comment that if you are going to draw conclusions from the Exonian, read it in total for a few weeks. </p>

<p>I don’t know if the school itself has changed that much in 30 years, but the expectations may have. As I said earlier, I am relieved that there are some level-headed parents who have sent their children to the school in order to get the education. I wish that all the parents thought the same way. </p>

<p>To the extent that the kids are pushed to snag the brass ring (college brand name), we are far more involved in their lives than our parents were in ours. Not sure that teaches the independence of mind and vision that were/are the hallmarks of BS as I knew it, and want for my kids. </p>

<p>To a great extent - I got left alone. It was “send us your grades, always do your best, we’ll send you a plane ticket for Christmas and Spring breaks, and we’ll be glad to see you home in the summer - but otherwise, it’s your show now.” Note - nothing about “you are the best and the brightest” - which you might take as a put down - but in fact allowed us to set our own level of competition. And we did push each other, I guess - but on our own terms, working with (and against) each other, but not against each other plus parents. I think it was better that way.</p>

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<p>Lol, the discussions at my school sound like Exeter’s Harkness discussions then. Usually only 3 or 4 people participate regularly, a few people occasionally participate, and everyone else just sits there.</p>

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<p>ssacdfamily,
Very level-headed and fair comment. Degree of helicoptering parents has, indeed, gone up everywhere. Sending D2 to BS has (refreshingly!) eliminated much of that, but some of it is around even at BS …</p>

<p>D2 had a little breakdown tonight, first ever in 3 years (at BS, but not at PEA). She has never sought help from her advisor ever. After hearing her stress-level and her situation, I suggested she try a chat with her advisor, but no advisor available. Going through Junior hell week of hell month---- SAT’s, SAT 2’s, AP’s, regular course work, finals and final papers… MUCH STRESS…
It was the only time I have ever needed to console her, give her advice, and help her think through a possible solution. But because she is at BS she first had to reach out to me, ask for help, and now it is up to her to execute. This is all good to me- building character, growing, learning how to deal with these situations… This once, she reached a point outside of her comfort zone in a uniquely pressured moment, and reached out for help. She realize that she was going to have to compromise: she could not get everything done. Is that such a bad lesson? If this happened regularly, I would of course question whether BS was a good place for her.
Also H or I do visit her at school more often than my parents ever did (which was never!)</p>

<p>So I would say there is more parental involvement with BS kids than my parents had with me back in my day at PEA. But wayyy less than going on at our local HS these days, where D1 went.
I feel that BS for an already independent kid can strike a very nice balance in terms of parental involvement. But it is not enough for some kids, for sure. D1 would have struggled with the independence and is dealing with that now, a better time for her, in college.
But- back in the day, the level of college app mania and standardized test mania was about 5% of what it is now- that is in truth what is behind what is impacting my D this week, for sure. Without that, she would not have had the little stress attack, I am betting.</p>

<p>I still think that the college app race and all it entails is whipping everyone into a frenzy! If it were not so competitive… sigh! Helicopter parenting enhances the frenzy as parents push and praise and over-console and talk to teachers, etc., but it is both a cause of and a response to this college mania.</p>

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<p>As to the comments about the class participation in the Math and Science classes that Tolkien visited,
Tolkien, were both these classes around Harkness tables??</p>

<p>In my day, Sciences were in the labs, and the classes had more students in them. And were not discussion driven.
I had an amazing Math class (geometry) around a Harkness table with Dan Brown’s father- he was one of the most enthusiastic, interesting and engaging teachers I have ever had!
I had a non- Harkness style Calc class that was dull, taught by a very elderly male teacher who had coached the football team for many years (and did not seem to be very on board with the presence of female students). There was only lecturing in that class. We sat in rows.</p>

<p>Also, both my Ds’ HS (one private local and one private BS) have small classes in the round for all except Sciences, sometimes around a table. This classroom scenario is much more common these days.</p>

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<p>@JayPeeh. If I understand correctly, the advantage of Harkness method is for everybody to fully engage in the discussion. If “some really bright and well prepared students are not always full participants in Harkness discussions”, I am afraid its effectiveness would be greatly diminished. </p>

<p>@ssacdfamily. I fully agree that several days of observation would give a more accurate picture. Unfortunately I had to go with whatever was available to me.</p>

<p>@ifax108. Harkness method (or called by other names in other schools) is widely adopted for humanity and social science classes (also in business schools and law schools). However what makes Exeter unique is its use in every class, including math and natural sciences. I am trying to understand how it impacts a student in terms of homework and preparedness.</p>

<p>@performersmom. Yes, they were around Harkness table. Also there were 4 (or 5?) boards in the classroom. Classes were later broken up into small groups (with 2~3 Students each) and show their work on the board.
Your comment also reminded me another interesting observation during our spring revisit at Exeter. A math teacher gave a mock lecture for parents. It was just amazing. I guess the teacher is always the most important in any classroom, Harkness or non-Harkness.</p>

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<p>I think different schools serve different purposes but it’s hard for people outside to judge based on viewbooks and limited exposure from campus visits. I remembered Exeter as being extremely hands-off unless things spiraled out of hand. I remembered some “kid glove” issue with some of the wealthier students who were essentially warehoused there by parents, but for the most part - the school expected students to be self managing and advisors weren’t warm and fuzzy. </p>

<p>I just assumed all schools were like that until my daughter started investigating them.</p>

<p>Exeter (and BS in general) is perfect for independent, well adjusted, proactive, self-correcting kids who see educational experience as the primary goal.</p>

<p>I know I was “pooh poohed” a year ago about calling Taft “nurturing.” Governor’s seemed the same way based on comments from other HADES parents I talked to who took the road less traveled. Nothing much is getting past the faculty and the academic rigor isn’t harmed by the more familial like environment. When my daughter was stuck on campus for a long weekend her advisor asked if she wanted to spend it at her house. I overheard a Dean telling a full FA family that his home was modest but they were always welcome to stay with him if it would help ease the financial burden of traveling up for a parent’s weekend. And the grade reports include running commentary from each teacher, the advisor, and the dean with quotes from other staff members. On rare occasions when D is stressed, she calls home and just asks us to listen while she vents, then she forms a course of action and asks for opinions. She sees this as a growing/learning experience for life. But in the beginning days, the faculty were identifying the stress of adjusting to the new lifestyle proactively and approaching her to ask if she wanted help.</p>

<p>Which begs the question - would it kill many of the other schools including my alma mater to be a little more aware of their students and flex based on those individual needs? </p>

<p>I think - in these days of high pressure - the sink or swim mentality isn’t always the best ones - and many of those students are getting pressure as well from parents which makes things worse.</p>

<p>But as a side note - I sometimes found when I was at Exeter that the students who talked the most - were often the most troubled and tended to flame out the fastest because they were hyper focused on proving they were the best, or trying to maintain top grades. So its hard to judge based on one trip to a classroom what’s really going on. If that happened to be the day after many students pulled an all nighter to finish a project for instance - I suspect only the “bodies” showed up for class but their brains were still asleep.</p>