<p>see post below....duplicate</p>
<p>It looks like my DDs tough decision will come down to Cal vs a small top-rated LAC in NY. A large part of her final decision will be based on a visit with coaches & teams in the next month. I am wondering what other things those of you in the know might consider as pros & cons, so that she can have her eyes open on the visits.</p>
<p>Her basic pros & cons are:</p>
<p>Cal: </p>
<p>It is in the general vicinity of the area where she grew up, but left 5 years ago, so there is sentimental affection- 3 hours from G'rents, has many friends in that area, etc., </p>
<p>Sun again, after 5 years in the rain :); has a few friends who already go there from high school; cost is appealing. In general the loaction feels comfortable, though far enough away from home to feel like she went away to school.</p>
<p>But:
Huge school, no real personal attention to undergrads. Sister goes to a UC, so we know all about those big classes and the lack of personal attention, thought sister is on track to graduate in 4 years with a double major, so the scheduling has not been the issue we feared it could be.</p>
<p>Off-campus housing prices after the first year. The off-campus UC housing costs more than tuition and books!</p>
<p>Vassar:</p>
<p>Great small school- she attends a small private high school and loves the "cheers" factor, knowing all her teachers so well, she has thrived on this and I assume she would like that about an LAC.</p>
<p>But:
All the way across the country, she likes her family and likes being around. Expense depends on FA offered. Still in the cold north, for a Cali girl.</p>
<p>Both schools area fit in different ways and I am sure meeting the teams and seeing the coahes in action will have some affect, but can ya'll think of anything else to consider in the pros & cons?</p>
<p>You are out of state, so the tuition difference will not be a huge factor I assume. </p>
<p>LAC PROs= personal contact with profs, research opps, opps to participate in ECs, intimacy, residential campus with cohesive community, easy to get to decision-makers, ECs can usually continue
CONs= can be stifling socially if too small, hard to "get lost" if you want to, fewer courses offered, some departments will be 'thin'</p>
<p>UCB PROs = internationally well known, great offerings in Berkley & SF, huge breadth of choices, opportunities, lots going on, any class you can imagine is offered
CONs = impersonal, TAs teach manhy classes, little prof contact, less a cohesive community feeling, red tape if a problem crops up, may be difficult to do same ECs one did in HS</p>
<p>Is your D a "joiner" who wants lots of prof contact & social intimacy or a person who wants the big, broad, exciting city-like environment?</p>
<p>I movd across the country to go to college and I have to say it was incredibly broadening. </p>
<p>Now, admittedly, I needed a little broadening as I grew up in a very small town, and it probably would've been broadening to go somewhere a mere 100 miles away. However, I found that being in an entirely different part of the country was its own education, especially being at a college where the students were also from all over. It's continued to be something I value. </p>
<p>It's just a possible "Pro" to add to your list.</p>
<p>SomeMom, we're something of converts to the merits of the LAC's. TheMom has worked for the UC system for 25 years but we're both impressed with the quality of D's academic experience in ways that a UC could not match. </p>
<p>The biggest downside I can see to Vassar, from what I read, is that it's relatively isolated.</p>
<p>My son made that same choice - turned down Cal for an east coast LAC (not Vassar, but one that is very similar) - and dropped out after 2 years at the LAC. </p>
<p>There were many positive experiences at the LAC and he definitely enjoyed his first year & a half there - I think feelings of restlessness & dissatisfaction started to settle in toward the end of his sophomore year. The main issue is that he outgrew the LAC and changed focus; he later applied to transfer to UCSC as an environmental studies major, a major not offered at the LAC. He was not accepted -- one issue to consider is that the UC system prioritizes students coming out of the community colleges for transfers, and many majors have very limited openings. So it isn't all that easy to transfer back into the system; last year every UC campus was filled to capacity and turning away qualified students. </p>
<p>In hindsight, I do not know whether or not my son would have done better at Cal -- he really wanted small classes and personal attention, and may have been very frustrated at Cal ... but things do change. My son also felt out of place and was unhappy with the lack of diversity at his campus -- he had a small group of good friends, but coming from a California public high school, he really found the lack of diversity (including economic diversity - a lot of rich kids) - somewhat disconcerting. Also, in the end he felt that the small classes and close attention wasn't all it was cracked up to be -- basically that it is a very good thing if he liked the prof and the class, not so much otherwise. He formed close friendships with a couple of profs that he could not possibly have had at Cal. </p>
<p>Sometimes you need to go away to find out what it is that you like at home -- so for my San Francisco-born son, I think there was value to going to the east coast even if it didn't work out in the long run. </p>
<p>I guess in the long run it comes down to a gut level choice & fit - these are very different academic environments. The other disadvantage with the LAC was money -- not just in the higher tuition & fees, but in other small costs as well.</p>
<p>My DD is faced with a similar decision between Vassar and a West Coast LAC, and I'm a Cal grad. From what I've heard recent and current Cal students, there are many small classes and many opportunities to work with professors; one of the main differences between Cal and a LAC seems to be in the area of students needing to fend for themselves and go after what they want at Cal, whereas LACs make things happen more easily for students. I have some other concerns for my child: how much of a shock it will be to her relatively laid-back, West Coast experiences to be in a much more intense, driven environment; whether she won't mind the significant female/male imbalance, which right now she says doesn't concern her; how she will like being in a school where athletics are not that popular; and how she will feel being so far geographically from home.</p>
<p>SomeMom - what is your Ds sport and how skilled is she? How interested is she in her sport? Also, does she have any areas of study in mind?</p>
<p>My daughter's sport is women's rugby, she has had national experience and will continue to do so. Both Vassar & Cal have programs in the top 20 in the US. Since it is an emerging NCAA sport, it is club in some schools and varsity in others. Her sport is important enough to her that is has defined our list of schools-must be quality play in her sport, ranked top 20 in the USA or one of the best in Canada (they are farther ahead than the US in rugby.)</p>
<p>She will probably study something in the sciences- she si a math/chem kind of kid, though enjoys humantities, too, she's just one of those love to learn people who would do well at an LAC. Very few LACs have rugby, so Vassar is the only one on our list.</p>
<p>She would likely enjoy big huge Cal football games & that true sports experience, but she also loves her current small school experience & I do not know how much she will get out there & fight for herself at Cal.</p>
<p>How intense & driven are the students at Vassar? I am clueless about the "back east attitudes" other than what I have read on college boards. I perceive there are higher percentages of the population driven to be the top </p>
<p>Both schools have a big city area available within an hour or two, so that is a plus for each.</p>
<p>My S. is at CAL after attending a small public high school in CA. He's having a great time; he was really ready for the change to a big school. The freshmen and sophmore seminars are a chance to meet professors in a small group situation. He has only one large class this semester.</p>
<p>As for housing, the dorms at CAL are very expensive - 13K for this year. The coops, where he will likely live next year, are half that amount. After the dot com bust, housing is much more available and affordable in Berkeley.</p>
<p>As a W. Coast girl who went E. to college, I would encourage you not to shelter your children from the opposit coast. We live in an increasingly global environment and you will keep your kids from being competitive in the long run if you attempt this. Have faith that they will quickly adapt to any cultural differences and be happy for the experience. Thet may even find, as I did, that they relate to the other coast better. At the risk of being flamed (again) by those whose children chose to stay close to home for college, IMHO, evey child should experience the opposit coast!</p>
<p>let her get out of her comfort zone COMPLETELY, i wanted too, didnt, have come to my senses and am trying to get out of here</p>
<p>so people should attend college on the opposite coasts?
I don't see those from the east coast rushing to CA despite the superior weather.</p>
<p>emeraldkity4,</p>
<p>Yes, some East Coast states are the biggest "exporters" of college students in the country--and they go ALL OVER. Not all to CA, of course, but plenty do. And many go south, and many go to the Midwest, and to the Pacific Northwest.... and so on.</p>
<p>I didn't say all east coast students stayed on the right coast but from reading these boards it did seem like a large ( majority?) percentage do
Example- most of competitive boarding schools seem to be on right coast- isn't one of their claims to fame that they send a goodly percentage of students to ivies?Last time I looked all the Ivies were in the same general area</p>
<p>While I generally ascribe to the "other coast" advice given by kirmum, in this case I don't feel that way - mainly because Cal is such a diverse environment. I think Cal would be a broader all around experience than Vassar, both in terms of location and programs. Cal is a fabulous place for a science student who can also play sports there...wow! A great opportunity!</p>
<p>somemom, there are several books available about making the most of a campus visit. "Looking Beyond the Ivy League" by Pope has a chapter about the campus visit, although he is biased towards LACs. When you write she will be meeting the coaches & teams and this will affect her decision, I hope she also is planning on sampling the overall student life (preferably with an overnite visit). I guess the difference is whether she is a college student who also plays a challenging sport, or a budding athlete who also happens to be in college. </p>
<p>Which school is right depends so much on the person; with these 2 you couldn't have starker choices! The student who suceeds at a UC is one who is self-motivated and doesn't need or want a lot of personal attention, who doesn't mind larger classes, who will take the initiative to get to know profs by going to office hours, who is willing to make big decisions with limited guidance or support (indeed viewing suggestions from other adults dismissively as "handholding" is a plus here since you won't get it at UC!), who is willing to keep plugging away until they can find the person who can help when they have questions (and isn't too intimidated to start approaching these people), who is outgoing and willing to take steps to meet and maintain a circle of friends such as joining clubs, approaching other students in various setting.</p>
<p>BTW there was a thread a while back with postings that said some kids who insisted they pick a college strong in some EC (music, sports, etc) within a year or so changed their focus. Maybe someone reading this will recall which thread it was. Anyway, there's no way to predict what will happen with your D, maybe this is an impossibility, but if not she should also consider which school she would pick if she was less involved in rugby.</p>
<p>Mikemac:</p>
<p>Yes, I have heard the "if you break your leg and cannot play" would you still pick this school? question...that is very important.</p>
<p>She is outgoing and gregarious and will not have a problem with making friends. Being in a small group (sport team) in a big school would shrink down the size quickly, as those are instant initial buddies. She has no problem seeking out extra help, but she does love knowing her teachers well, and would likely enjoy that about a small school.</p>
<p>Before we realised her ability and commitment to her sport, we were looking at many smaller and private schools and NOT thinking UCs. Cal is top 20 in her sport, UCSD is top 10, that brought them right into the mixture.</p>
<p>She does not want to be an athlete who happens to be at university...she is a student first which is one of the appealing things about Vassar, they are very supportive of academics. She asserts, already, that she will not plan to skip classes at school- she has always been that way, hates to miss a single class.</p>
<p>That being said, she wants to stay of the calibre to play on the national team, so her sport is important to her, too. Basically, she wants it all. If she cose to give up rugby for siome unforeseen reason, and still wanted to do sports, she could do one of several sports teams at Vassar, I do not know as much about the other club sports at Cal.</p>
<p>
Somemom, I have spent half my life on each coast and gone to top schools on each coast (including Cal). I would urge you strongly to put aside any such stereotypes in helping D choose. That is all they are - stereotypes, and she will find attitudes of every stripe, as well as "drivenness" up and down the scale from laid back to type-A-max at top-ranked schools on each coast. It's so easy for our S/Ds to worry that kids will be "different" depending on which ocean they're closest to. They won't.</p>
<p>So continue in the wise course of D visiting both and spending time with coaches/team members, gathering ideas on what else to consider - as you are doing here - but don't worry about these characterizations people try to make of what "they" are like.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't see those from the east coast rushing to CA despite the superior weather.
[/quote]
Not easy to do. For its size, Ca. is very short on college opportunities for those from the right coast. There's the Claremonts, Stanford, a few in the next tier down, and then the UCs. UCs are not really an option for non-residents. Even though I'm a Cal legacy, I could never really get a fix on whether my S could have a chance there. He chose not to apply, but my Ca friends basically told me the out-of-state spots were reserved for international, recruited athletes, etc. S applied to Stanford and Santa Clara (safety) but wasn't so keen on H. Mudd. He's planning on engineering, but doesn't wan't a pure tech school (CalTech, CalPoly) so what else is there?</p>