Smaller school with merit aid for Jewish girl B+/A- premed [really 3.95 unweighted HS GPA]

College Search & Selection
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Data that can be seen by all from the AAMC is here:

It gives actual odds, among other things, for MCAT scores, grades, etc. There are several things that can be looked at. Getting into med school is tough.

Our school warns students not to take pre-req courses at CCs.

From my own personal experience with colleges, my medical lad applied to and was accepted at Furman. They wanted the most $$ from us of any of his acceptances. 33+K more annually. Their acceptance quickly got declined. They weren’t a better school than his other options.

This was back in 2012. Perhaps they differ now with their awards or perhaps they’ll want the OP’s D more than my guy, but my guy had much higher stats if the 1400 SAT is their range.

Obviously he liked Furman enough to apply, but if finances are an issue, don’t count on that one.

When we visited Furman, nothing seemed close enough to walk to as far as “town” was concerned. Perhaps that’s changed too though. Greenville (nice enough at the time) was driving distance away, not walking distance. A quick google calculation puts it 6-6.5 miles away.

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This is U Rochester’s Medical School 2025 Class Profile showing what they look for in successful applicants. I’m sure they’re not alone - I expect if most schools printed profiles they’d be rather similar in matriculant details. I’m thankful they share theirs each year allowing me to let pre-med wannabes read it so they’re forewarned about how competitive med school is. It’s easy to assume because one is excellent in high school that it will be a “given” to get into med school. I find it’s far better if students have more info rather than just their own thoughts about what will work.

They received roughly 5900 applications for 105 spots. 711 got interviews for those 105 spots.

Personally, I wouldn’t be trying for “minimum” qualifications if I truly wanted a spot. From the AAMC data I posted earlier Chart A-23 tells me that those with the highest MCAT scores and grades were only 84.2% were successful.

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Will she have a car?

It doesn’t really matter how rigorous the CC is though, the first cut is made by an algorithm and there’s no algorithm that disregards CC classes “except at Montgomery college” (using an example).
She WILL need to take the appropriate required courses, without repeating anything she took at your local CC, ie., upper level science classes. If she does, she’ll be okay. The algorithm will check she has the requisite number and type of classes taken at a 4-year college; their goal is to cull as much as possible so you really want to have all the requirements and all the “recommendeds”.

For reference, this is what she should take in order to cover all med schools’ pre-reqs:

  • General Biology 1&2 → if she takes more advanced Bio classes she’ll be ok, especially if she takes Anatomy&Physiology and Neuroscience
  • General Chemistry1&2, with lab + Organic Chemistry 1&2 + Biochemistry, I assume taking 1 more advanced chemistry class shouldn’t be a problem
  • Physics1&2: if she didn’t take this at the CC she’s okay. If she took Physics 1 this semester she should save Physics 2 for the 4-year college. Biophysics might work if she does need to take an extra “Physics for Bio major” course.
    -Math: she’s okay taking biostatistics at the 4-year College and either calc 2 or a calc-based more advanced stats/biostatistics class.
  • she’ll need to take 2 semesters of English at the 4-year College typically, typically a writing/professions or writing/science junior level class plus one more class (interpersonal communication can be a good choice)
  • it’s easy to find accessible sophomore level psych and sociology classes
  • further science classes, bioethics, fluency in a language useful in a clinical setting, a diversity-focused class can all be taken either at the CC or the 4-year.
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Those tables are great! Nothing better than actual data!

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I’m confused. If she took some of those classes as DE, does she still have to log a certain number of semesters at the four year college in those same subjectsv

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Yes, she compensates with a higher level class in the same subject and does super well, thus showing the CC content was in-depth and her mastery as strong as any 4 year course “A” would indicate. Usually one advanced class is enough to compensate.
Not all med schools want the same thing and it’s important to be able to apply to as many med (MD/DO) as possible since it’s so incredibly difficult (“recommended”=“required unless you’re a truly special case”)

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U Pitt?

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Where do you see “except at Montgomery College”? Just curious
 DD is actually taking classes at Montgomery College. Anyway I do not see a problem taking classes now.
Is student taking AP Physics and repeating it in college, is he/she repeat the course?
You can ask to not transfer classes
 I think intro Chem and Bio, Math, English, Psych and Soci are not a problem for most schools. DD can retake same physics in 4 year college, but she will be better prepared by taking classes in CC now. Anyone can retake class not taken in a particular school. Some classes do not even transfer.

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There is no problem taking dual enrollment classes. My daughter took AP classes as well as classes through Syracuse University and SUNY Albany.

It becomes a problem when you think you can take your medical school prerequisites at a CC while still in HS (or after).

I can’t help but feel as though you are diminishing this process (not trying to be disrespectful).

MYOS explains this beautifully below. It’s also very helpful (and humbling) to read Creekland’s post (2025 Class Profile).

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Dual Enrollment classes at a CC are an excellent preparation for college and well-respected for admission purposes, especially if the CC is good.
However, med schools are different from colleges. (In fact, med school admission rules are often counter-intuitive.)
They do NOT want CC classes to “replace” classes at a 4-year colleges, just like AP’s don’t count as far as they’re concerned. In addition, classes can’t be “repeated”, which puts students in a bind when they’re dual enrolled at a community college. AP courses are technically HS classes so they don’t count at all for med schools and aren’t considered “repeats”. CC classes are in-between :frowning: .
You cannot “hide” your CC classes: from the moment you register at a CC, you’re entered into a national clearinghouse. All the CC classes and CC grades will be reported to the AMCAS. Trying to hide them = immediate cut for dishonesty.

Taking intro Chem, Bio, English, Psych, and Soc at a CC is good for college admissions and isn’t a problem for med schools as long as the student takes one, more advanced, class at the 4-year college in each subject taken at the CC.

Since Physics is often taken junior year, it’s possible one Physics class taken at a CC while in HS wouldn’t “count” as the same as a Physics class taken junior year in college at a 4-year college, however it’s typically better to take the “intro to physics” class (ie., one-course, intro Physics for non majors) at the CC, then the “Algebra-based Physics for Natural science majors” sequence at the 4-year college.

There are hundreds of applicants per spot in Med School. The “first cut” is made by an algorithm. The algorithm doesn’t care what college the applicant attended, what major s/he has, etc. It just cuts anyone that doesn’t match its parameters. Only then do applications get to human eyes that get to evaluate subjective criteria.

Will your child have a car on campus?

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Which are both 4 year schools and not a problem for med schools.

The problem can come from CC classes.

@twogirls, I’m sure you’re aware of this - just clarifying for readers.

Eons ago when my lad was considering med school we went to two programs for high schoolers looking to go to med school. Both were led by med school admissions from two different med schools. The CC and summer classes for prereqs came up in both sessions. Both answers were the same too. They said they didn’t like seeing them, but would make exceptions for those who decided to go to med school after having done those classes. If they saw someone taking them intending to take the “easy” way to med school, it was a flat no because they don’t like the trait of “looking for easy.”

Since the OP’s D is already doing this, her fate is set for that aspect. She’ll have to see how it plays out and go the route of taking more advanced classes at the 4 year. If she gets to the interview stage and it comes up, she can rightfully say she didn’t know if the subject comes up.

For anyone reading and contemplating med school, I really don’t recommend that path. Take other courses at CC. Take AP to prepare yourself for college classes and skip the test (if you can) to avoid conflict with first year courses at college if that might happen. Self study to prepare for college if you prefer. Learning to study as a high schooler is a good trait to have for med school.

Also note as @MYOS1634 said, ALL classes (and grades) from a CC will count for medical school. None get hidden. You want As in everything. My own medical lad took 3 courses at CC while in high school, Public Speaking (highly recommended for all students, esp future doctors IMO), senior English, and Microbio (also a great course and not a pre-req, so helpful on many fronts with getting into college and med school).

None of these courses counted for college as his U didn’t give credit for CC classes. We didn’t care. It was the education we wanted - prep for college and prep for med school. The med schools still cared even if his college did not.

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Thank you, yes. I should probably stop writing posts at 2 am lol. Thank you for clarifying!

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This is a really interesting discussion – I have had very little exposure to medical school admissions, and it sounds like the rules and requirements about pre-med courses are definitely something that any potential pre-med HS student and their families should know about, but I bet that many do not. Do the HS guidance counselors know about these complicated rules?

For the OP, it sounds like, based on previous posts, that her daughter is a HS junior this year and that she is in her first semester of DE and is taking Calc 1, Psych 101, and a sociology and English course at the CC.

It also sounds like she has to report these courses to medical school, regardless of how well or poorly she does in them, even if her four-year college will accept them for credit. The same holds true for any other CC course she attempts and/or finishes.

If she does well in the CC courses, she has to take a more advanced course in the same subject in her four-year college. If she takes the same level course, that is a problem because it will look to the medical school like she repeated the CC course.

How does that work if the college doesn’t take that particular CC course for credit? For example, let’s say the college won’t take CC Psych 101 for credit. The student may not be allowed into Psych 102 , because they need the college’s Psych 101 as a pre-requisite and the college didn’t give credit for the CC Psych 101. But if the student takes Psych 101 again in college, then does the med school think she is repeating a class and that’s a problem for her cumulative record?

And
if this student is truly a first semester HS junior right now, it sounds a good strategy might be to get some really targeted advice about what courses to take next semester (whether at CC or her HS), and then (again based on above comments) should consider switching to the AP track at her HS for senior year (if possible) and NOT take the AP exams, so as to preserve the ability to take the required premed courses at her four-year college and do well in them, without having issues of “repeating a course” on her record.

@MYOS1634 and @Creekland is this accurate? I am just trying to rehash this for myself, as this is all new to me.

Thanks!

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Once this student gets to undergrad school, they will very much need to work with a premed advisor to map out courses to take during their undergrad years.

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MMRose- in the US, nobody needs to start worrying about med school admissions while still a HS student. That’s the system in many other countries, but not here. HS kids need to worry about fulfilling their own state’s requirements to graduate from HS (which might include things like Phys Ed, which college’s won’t care about) AND making sure they’ve covered off the “recommended” list for the college’s they are interested in.

What gets things complicated is when a family wants the kid to graduate in three years from college and THEN be ready to be a successful med school applicant. That’s very hard to do. A kid with a lot of AP and DE credits? At some colleges, that will help a kid graduate in three years. But that’s not the same as being ready to have a successful med school application. And at other colleges which give minimal (or no) credits for AP or DE, it will make the student eligible to take higher level and harder courses- but won’t get them out any faster.

This particular situation seems even more complicated than what we usually see on CC (and the other wise med school parents have already weighed in with fine advice) because of the hunt for merit aid. Threading that needle, AND meeting the D’s other requirements, AND then making sure that at the particular college the student has fulfilled the necessary courses for a successful med school application- that gets hard.

I think that’s why parents have been encouraging the OP to keep an open mind about UMD, a flagship U which has strong med school advising, courses in every conceivable area and “level” to make sure that after four years, the OP’s D has the right courses in the right sequencing.

But even if the student goes elsewhere- again, many fine choices being discussed, keeping on track in terms of course sequencing is important. And being mindful that if a kid gets a C in a HS bio class that will have zero impact on med school admissions down the line- but a C in a Community College bio class (whether a med school “accepts” it or not) IS going to show up on the transcript. There’s the rub.

Am I helping clarify for you?? Hope so!

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Very helpful! Thank you!

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This part I’m not sure about as I’ve never encountered the problem. @WayOutWestMom might have the answer.

The rest you’re correct on - all CC classes count regardless of whether any other college counts them, etc.

I have to disagree here. This whole thread is a case of where it helps if high school students know what is desired by med schools. I’ve seen students take languages at CCs and get Bs telling me they didn’t put effort into those - just wanted to pass - because they “knew” it didn’t matter as much for getting into college as the main classes. That might be true for college acceptance. It’s not true for med school acceptance. Those Bs go into their GPA as 3.0 classes - not good when one needs a high GPA.

IME it’s also helpful for students to look at what successful applicants have so going forward they can have a plan for what they want to do in college. They also know to get a solid foundation in high school instead of easing along not really caring if they don’t understand it all as long as they’re still getting decent grades. Plus, it’s not all grades. ECs, medical experience/shadowing, and community service are also important - while getting stellar grades. They know to hit freshman fall quarter running which can keep them out of the party atmosphere. Majoring/minoring in party freshman year is a quick way to end plans to be a doctor.

With knowledge ahead of time they aren’t blindsided later. Knowing what’s involved, some go ahead and choose another choice. Nothing wrong with that. If you know the race isn’t your thing, choose something else. There are plenty of options in the medical world (or elsewhere) that they do not have to take the MD/DO route to be successful in life.

Any pre-med should have a Plan B anyway. If it’s not needed, great, but if they are in the majority who apply to med school and don’t get accepted it’s good to have rather than wondering WTH they’re supposed to do now.

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No, In fact many so-called pre-med advisors at colleges aren’t especially knowledgable about the rules.

It also sounds like she has to report these courses to medical school, regardless of how well or poorly she does in them, even if her four-year college will accept them for credit. The same holds true for any other CC course she attempts and/or finishes.

Absolutely true, AMCAS** requires every college course a student has ever enrolled in–including dual enrollment classes and audited classes–be reported when the student applies for med school.

How does that work if the college doesn’t take that particular CC course for credit? For example, let’s say the college won’t take CC Psych 101 for credit. The student may not be allowed into Psych 102 , because they need the college’s Psych 101 as a pre-requisite and the college didn’t give credit for the CC Psych 101. But if the student takes Psych 101 again in college, then does the med school think she is repeating a class and that’s a problem for her cumulative record?

If a student’s college will not accept the transfer credit and requires the student to repeat the class because it’s a pre-req (or whatever), then, yes, when the student lists their coursework on their AMCAS application, AMCAS automatically marks the class as “repeated”. However, there is usually a space on most individual med school’s secondary applications where they can explain any issues like this. (Typically under --“Is there anything else you you want to add?” type question.)

**Osteopathic medical schools (DO) have their own application system, ACOMAS, as do all Texas medical schools (MD and DO), TMDSAS. Each system has its own rules, but I believe both are very similar to AMCAS.

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@momsearcheng

It depends on if the student’s college assigns credit for a specific undergrad class for the AP score.

For example, D2 took AP Bio, scored 5, but her college did not allow bio majors to receive course credit for any courses required by the major. Instead, her AP credits appeared on her transcript as “4 credits of elective biology.” Those credits did not count toward fulfilling her degree requirements and her Intro Bio class (Bio 112) was NOT marked as repeated class.

However, her AP Calc BC does appear on her transcript as earning credit for MTH 161 (calc 1) and MTH 162 (calc 2). She did not take either of those classes over again. (She started with MTH 163) But if she had retaken calc 1 (MTH 161), then that class would have been marked as repeated by AMCAS.

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I’m familiar with vet school admissions, but not med school. I’ve learned so much from reading these posts. This information is so important, would the posters consider starting a topic sharing their med school admissions info in the med school forum under high school course selections if considering future med school admissions?

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