Smaller school with merit aid for Jewish girl B+/A- premed [really 3.95 unweighted HS GPA]

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Ok, just spent a little time on Google and came up with UMD’s med school Class of 2025 stats here:

6244 Applications
492 Interviews
259 Acceptances (that’s good odds if you get an interview)
140 Spaces

There’s more on the page with GPA (3.72/3.79), etc.

Here’s what they say you need to apply:

https://www.medschool.umaryland.edu/admissions/Your-Path-to-Medical-School/

CC courses are allowed as pre-reqs. That makes sense because the schools we went to for pre-med sessions (in high school) said they allow them for students who decided later that they wanted to go to med school (vs knowing it from the beginning). If they didn’t allow them, they can’t allow them for anyone (as @WayOutWestMom said earlier). Still, that means your D isn’t sunk because she took some there. She should just take higher level courses at whatever 4 year she goes to in order to prove she can still get the As she needs. (Plus, of course, essentially all of her CC course grades ought to be As since med schools include those in their GPA calcs too.)

But don’t look at the second link as a minimum. One is going to be hard pressed to get one of those “can’t progress without it” interviews with just the minimum unless there’s a great back story lurking somewhere. Stand out at whatever college she ends up at. Be the person the school would want to write about if they did a written profile like UR.

You also wrote this:

Beware that if any of the aid is need based, many schools won’t stack scholarships. The 1/4 could reduce the 1/2 instead of adding to it.

You’ve got the right frame of mind to apply broadly and make decisions based upon acceptances and finances. Then she needs to do her part at the college.

Plus… it’s ok if she changes her mind. Many do, and it’s not always about being weeded out. Make sure she knows it’s ok to not have her plan written in stone just yet. You only want to be making sure her path remains open by making the choices you’re making.

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My daughter was accepted to UMD, out of state, with merit, to the honors program. She had premed intentions but they did not know and she was not entirely sure. She applied as a nutrition major and never took AP bio in HS.

In HS she took a few non-science classes through Syracuse and Albany. AP classes were permitted to begin junior year, and she took physics, chemistry, Lang, calc, Spanish, and one more (forgot what). She took honors biology- not AP (she took the subject test in biology but I believe subject tests have been discontinued).

She attended an out of state public school and switched to a biology major, with chemistry and Spanish double minors. The school accepted all of her AP and college credits (she received 5’s on the AP tests) and she took higher level classes in the sciences, as well as other subject areas. She did not repeat classes. She met with an advisor and there was no confusion about classes (she did not have CC courses).

Along with these classes, she did shadowing during breaks, medical volunteering, worked a LOT with underrepresented populations, did research etc. She was very, very busy.

Guess what? All of this work …a ton of work…and she did not apply to medical school during her undergrad years (not uncommon). She accepted a two year “gap” type of job to continue her work in underrepresented communities. She spent those 2 years interviewing medical students, PhD students, and a few other paths…and then she made her decision. It was a 6 year process to get to where she is today.

That’s why I am suggesting that you put premed on the back burner for now. Right now… find an affordable school that she likes, meet with a premed advisor, be prepared to take advanced classes and do well, get involved and meet new friends, and have a plan B.

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https://students-residents.aamc.org/media/7041/download indicates that some medical school require or recommend calculus as a pre-med course (“recommended” should be treated as “required” in most cases). So she may want to take calculus 2 at a four year school after having completed calculus 1 at a community college (assuming that she will not be a math major or other major that will automatically include more advanced calculus-based math).

Also, knowledge of calculus can be useful in some medical contexts, and having learned it in college prevents having to rediscover it, as shown at Medical researcher discovers integration, gets 75 citations | An American Physics Student in England . Knowledge of calculus can also be helpful in understanding statistics (commonly used in medical research) and physics.

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@momsearcheng wrote:

I know that almost all premed students at UMD take AP Calc, Physics, Psychology, Chem and Biology in HS. Somehow they are fine with admissions to medical schools… They do not retake these classes in college. In fact unless you finished AP Bio you cannot even apply for Honor program at UMD for premeds… So something does not add up.

The students are fine because they don’t retake the same classes they already have credit for; they take higher level elective classes in those same disciplines to supplement their AP credits.

Also I have noticed that Physics 1 (Fundamental of physics) from CC will transfer into Phys 121. On the other hand Bio and Neuroscience majors are required to take Phys 131 and 132. Phys 131 is considered physics for Biologists (so it is physics in Biology context). Will this considered to be repeat?

No. PHYS 121 and PHYS 131 are considered different classes. Their content is different, although there may be overlap in the topics covered by both classes. Taking PHYS 131 if you already have credit for PHYS 121 won’t be considered a repeat.

If class in CC was remote due to COVID (all classes are remote at this point) will this still be repeat? Will somebody expect student to take Physics major class? I strongly doubt it.

Remote learning has nothing to do with how colleges and med schools will view the CC physics class. (Except that online/remote lab-based science classes taken during non-Covid times are not accepted by most medical schools.)

What makes the class a repeated class or not is how it confers transfer credit at her undergrad university. If the CC physic class is marked on her college transcript as equivalent to a particular physics class (PHYS 121, for example) offered by her college, then if she take the same [PHYS 121] class as the one she already has credit for, the second PHYS 121 class will be marked as a repeated class. If she take a different class (with a different course number–like PHYS 131), that class will not be marked as a repeated class.

If what you described is recommended, all potential premed students will take all AP classes and will not take exams for any of them…

It certainly a fairly common practice among students who plan to go pre-med. It’s also common among student who attend elite colleges & universities which don’t allow AP credit for coursework in a student’s major.

My younger D–who wasn’t planning on being a pre-med --didn’t take her Physics C AP exam because she knew her chosen college wouldn’t allow her to use the credits anyway.

She also didn’t take her AP Spanish exam because she knew she wasn’t going to pursue the language in college and her university didn’t require any foreign language for graduation.

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There are about a half dozen or so medical schools that DO require calculus 1. And they also require Calc 2. And there are 2 or 3 that require Calc 3 and/or differential equations as well.

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Thanks a lot for your info. Older daughter also did not take AP Stat exams since we new that GaTech does not take it. Younger daughter will probably do same next year give info above :). No need to pay for class in CC if it cannot be used…

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Oh, the CC classes can be used–they can fulfill her HS graduation requirements and will allow her to jump ahead to UL elective coursework quicker once she gets to college. Using CC credits will allow your D more space in her schedule to take elective classes to explore new areas ofr dive deeper into her chosen field.

D2 who took Calc BC as a HS junior took Calc 3 and diff eq at her high school as asenior and was able to use those transfer credit to fulfill 1/3 of her math degree requirements. (She didn’t get credit, but she did get advance standing.) She had all her intro level math classes done and was able to start taking UL electives (what D2 called the “fun stuff”) right away. By doing so she was able to complete a double major and still graduate on time and without taking any summer classes.

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You are paying for these? Wow…guess we should consider ourselves lucky. DE courses used to fulfill HS graduation requirements were paid for by our school district.

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We had to pay for CC courses here too and were envious of places where people didn’t. It was full price when my guys took them. At least it’s half price for high school students now.

Otherwise, to clarify on CC, the problem is using them as pre-req classes. An example would be a History major taking Bio, Chem (or whatever) and considering that enough for med school. That’s where the red flag comes in. It’s enough for the college degree if the college accepts it. It’s not enough for med school - or rather, it’s not ideal for most med school applicants.

If someone is a Bio or Chem major and takes additional classes which clearly show their ability afterward, it’s not a big deal. If someone is a History (or whatever) major and took pre-reqs at CC it’s highly recommended to take additional 4 year classes in those subjects.

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One last point I think readers should be aware of… while this student, by our standards, is “merely” a high school student, med schools consider anyone who has started college level classes a college student. APs are considered high school classes (grades aren’t reported to med schools).

Medical school is it’s own category, and while those of us who have a fair number of years behind us might know plenty who got into medical school in our era without much difficulty, the leader of one of our “how to get into med school” sessions a decade ago told us all he was glad he came of age in our generation because with his grades/stats/ECs he’d have been lucky to be accepted as a janitor now. He said he interviews kids far better than he ever was as a candidate and they still don’t get accepted.

It’s only gotten harder over the past decade since I started learning about it.

In a way, it’s a bit like college costs - not so bad in our day, but one wants to be fully prepared ahead of time now.

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I think if your daughter loved the vibe of Wooster, eliminating it for seeing poor reviews is not wise. There’s not a school in the country without poor reviews - even those that you never hear a bad word about on CC like Pitt. If it’s not right, i get it - but I think basing that on on-line reviews isn’t wise. I looked at Niche…most are positive. I would also caution to go back two years because with covid last year, it wasn’t representative of what an experience will likely be. From the two I know who have attended, I’ve heard nothing but great things.

Per what Wooster publishes the national acceptance rate for med school in 2019-20 was 41% and they appear to be above that although with small #s because it’s a small school.

I guess, overall, I read your comment about you read this or figured that (like partying…that’s nearly everywhere)…so if your daughter loved it, I would recommend getting in your app, seeing the offer, and if it works doing a deeper dive.

Good luck

Medical-School-MD-summary-2019-20.pdf (wooster.edu)

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My job was relocating me to Greenville (or Asheville) 7 years ago. We settled on Greenville because it was closer for most of my day to day contacts. We visited the reform synogauge. Coming from suburban Nashville with little jewish life, it was quite scary. Neat downtown, quickly growing area, but I was extremely fortunate to have found another job and not make the move. We were very concerned to move our kids there. Furman is definitely not the place for a student seeking a semi-robust Jewish life. I’d say it’s closer to Bob Jones U in mindset than say Yeshiva!!

Niche (how they rank and if it’s meaningful I don’t know) - but they rank 1700 colleges - the top half are liberal and the bottom half are conservative. They rank Furman 385th (1 being conservative, 1700 being liberal) - so it is likely very conservative. That said, most conservative schools likely skew pro - Israel although that doesn’t equal an inclusion for Jewish students on campus. That would be my biggest concern coming from an area without many Jewish students…it’s not that people will be against you but when they’re going to church every Sunday and you’re not and many of the activities in public school are yes, church related and that’s not your thing…you’re just not going to be comfortable there.

I do think it’s wonderful you have toured. It’s great your daughter didn’t like Oberlin. It’s great she loved Wooster. This is what trips are about.

I do think you need to allow for two things:

  1. You have a budget set - so which schools can get you there - and yes, it will be a lot of OOS publics. All classes won’t be large but many will. With Honors Colleges, you can get smaller. With smaller schools you can get smaller. In the end, if and I’m just throwing out names, Alabama gets you to budget but Muhlenberg doesn’t, the class size will be less impactful because you shouldn’t apply to the school you can’t afford or don’t see the merit getting you there.

  2. You need to let your daughter, assuming finances work, decide where interests her. You should go on campus, talk to - not the tour guides - but kids in the student union, on the quad, in the dining hall. Get a real sense about things that interest you - class size, weekend activities, and other things. While tour guides are great sources, they’re also often reading canned scripts. Online reviews - perhaps are helpful directionally but still need to be taken with a grain of salt - although I didn’t see overly bad ones in volume about Wooster. I do know their research program is fantastic.

What I’m saying is - truly experience the school best you can, don’t let the online chat boards make or break a decision, and know there are partiers EVERYWHERE. I mean, if that’s a concern, and I love W&L, but it’s known to be hard core and that’s on your list. It’s also a wonderful program. And if chat boards are going to be a guide, then you can eliminate schools before you even visit them…but again, I don’t think that’s fair to the school or your daughter.

So - just my opinion - but $$ first (make sure where you apply can work) and after that, let your daughter decide.

I find the entire pre-med chat fascinating and educational. However, given the # of kids that end up not pursuing that route and the #s that decide to and yet don’t make it - I would not pick a college based on pre-med (that’s just me).

Good luck.

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The OP stated that she needs half of the total cost to be covered through merit. This list of schools needs a major overhaul.

Huge merit will not happen for this particular student at GW, Rochester, Case, and Tulane. It just won’t.

Pitt may ? give her a small award, but it will not be half the cost of attendance. The students at Pitt are very impressive - as in many were published in science journals while still in HS. My daughter interviewed at this school- I have seen these students and it is a very humbling experience. I am not taking anything away from this student.

Furman’s large merit awards are highly competitive. Try if you want, but don’t count on it. The same can be said for Muhlenberg and W/L.

VCU was described as a safety. Is this school affordable? If you can’t afford it, it’s not a safety.

Dickinson’s top award ? is $35,000 per year, and it is reserved for those students at the very top. Looking at the data, this student appears to be at the upper end of the middle 50%. This means that the top award will be very, very hard to get. There will be much stronger students trying for this award. And…will this top award make the school affordable? The total cost of attendance is pushing $80,000 a year.

Let’s look at Gettysburg. The top award ? is $40,000 a year, and it goes to outstanding students who also help “transform” their community. According to the data, this student falls at the upper end of the mid 50%. 60% of the students at Gettysburg are in the top 10% of their HS class. Huge merit at this school will be highly unlikely for this student (a very good student btw, but likely not at the level for these huge awards). What does it mean to “transform” the community? Well…my D’s friend in college created a club in HS …and then took this club to a national level…while still in HS…where it continues today.

Next up is Rhodes. The top award celebrates academic achievement, as well as service and leadership both inside and outside of the classroom. Looking at the data- this school is an academic match and not a safety. And…one cannot underestimate the work that students do in their community. When my daughter interviewed for a competitive award, she told me about a student who was a pilot. He cooked in his “free” time and helped feed people throughout the country.

Denison looks for “superior academic achievement” among other things. The admissions rate is 28%, and this student seems to fall in the mid 50% ?. This school is a match/reach, IMO. I would NOT count on merit.

The OP was provided with many …many excellent options for merit. The issue with merit- for the most part - you need to be at the very top/ top of the applicant pool. This poster doesn’t want her D to be at the very top- it seems they feel that being at the very top will somehow reduce the academics too much.

I mentioned earlier that UMD is a great school - with every opportunity you could ask for, at an affordable price. There is a good chance that this student will be there. If that happens, work hard, get very involved, get way out of your comfort zone (very important in healthcare), and have a Plan B.

I agree 100% about Wooster. Every school will have bad reviews if you look for them.

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I’ve probably said it before, but I’ll repeat it here. For pre-med, I’ve seen the most success getting into medical schools from students who went to colleges where they were in the top 25% (perhaps top 10%) both in grades and test scores. It gives a student a good feeling when they’re in class and feel as competitive as the rest of their peers. It gives most very negative vibes when they’re in class and feel woefully inadequate comparatively.

Med schools take the top of the college graduating class, not the middle, unless there’s a very major back story and usually years post college graduation.

That’s the only “specific to med school” advice I give to students. All the other aspects about colleges (big/small, public/private, location, etc) don’t really matter. Med schools take from them all if the candidate is worthy.

Admission rates to med school are not worthy of looking at. Those with high rates are almost always (if not always) those who cook the books by not letting the “maybe” candidates apply. That kills many dreams. Some “maybe” students make it in when allowed to apply. They don’t even get a chance to reapply later if their college won’t back their application as with high admission rate schools.

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We are talking about a HS student who very likely has not gotten out of her “comfort zone” yet, and that’s OK. That being said, if she wants a career in healthcare, she’s going to have to. What does this mean, exactly?

  • she may have a patient one day who is not “pro Israel” (I am Jewish, btw and consider myself to be “pro human being”)
  • some people teach yoga to the homeless, others invite the homeless to dinner …and are very happy to do it
  • I have walked up 10 flights of steps and sat in urine to work with children
  • I have entered buildings with bullet holes in the front door…to work with elderly patients who have had strokes
  • patients can hit and bite

Healthcare …medicine…does not always mean working with cute little kids with bows and ribbons.

This is what I mean by getting out of your comfort zone (there are many more examples). I do not expect a HS kid to have these experiences…but college students with premed intentions…and medical students…and other types of healthcare…will absolutely have these experiences. And they should.

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I think the advice here for AP or CC transfer credit is to take the non-premed APs/CC courses, like AP Gov, AP US History, and maybe English or Math (which will have higher level sections required in college- since those are more than 1 semester courses) and not take the science courses that will result in a transfer course that meets a premed req. How about Stats? Is Stats a premed req? If the student takes AP Stats and gets a 5 or CC stats, and transfers will get hurt her premed app if she doesn’t take it in college?

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Which is why they are mentioned so much and should be seen as needed to be a successful applicant as per U Rochester’s written profile.

My resident son has already been hit and knocked out by a patient. No one in the room saw it coming. Fortunately he was ok.

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Absolutely- and glad he’s OK. These experiences cannot be ignored if somebody wishes to be premed.

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This brings back a memory. My guy took AP Stats and got a 5. His college accepted it, but one of his majors didn’t so he had to repeat their course even though it ended up being the exact same thing (he wasn’t very happy about the time lost). I’m not sure how it all showed up on his med school application, but he had enough other stuff going for him that it apparently didn’t matter (at least back then).

That’s probably the key. Having enough good stuff on the application that you’re in the top whatever percentage to snag an interview. Being average won’t get you there.

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Still not sure of the lesson learned on Wooster - but since you mentioned partying, let’s go through your list and Niche is the only one I know that assigns a grade. How that is determined (likely surveys I don’t know but.

Wooster - eliminated for partying - B

Pitt - I think if you haven’t yet applied, you are too late for merit - they give theirs away early as - party grade A

VCU - A

GW - A

Rochester - B

CWRU - B-

Tulane - A+ (regularly a top 5 on any party list)

Rhodes - A-

Furman - B-

W&L A

Dickinson - C+

Gettysburg A-

Muhlenberg - B

Dennison - B

UMD - A+

Here’s others - for reference

Oberlin - which you made sound like crazy party (and I’m sure they have some) - C+

Harvard - A

Vanderbilt - A+

Duke - A

Vandy - A+

Listen, you didn’t like Oberlin - and that’s FANTASTIC - because that’s what trips are about. But I think partying - short of a school where it’s banned like a BYU - probably is present. Just like at a school like Vandy, while there will be huge parties, there will also be kids in the library on Saturday or playing board games.

Campuses have a wide swath of life.

I hope you keep an open mind and find the right school for your daughter - right meaning where she can grow and prosper but also that you can afford.

For schools like Maryland, Tulane - i hope she’s already applied because getting in after the early dates is near impossible. Well Tulane is near impossible any time.

Again, I wish you well and I love the thread you created - very informative.

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