So...asians...are we really that screwed?

Applying to College
21

<p>
[quote]
I've been hearing that colleges expect more from asian americans? That sounds pretty screwed up. What is a "typical asian?" and why can't he/she get into top colleges? How do you get out of that category? I just thought this was...interesting. Any comments?

[/quote]

One simply cannot lump colleges, even all top colleges, in one categary and make blanket assumptions. The acceptance rate for blacks is much higher than the overall rate at MIT and Penn. At Rice and Hopkins, the admit rates are the same. Wake, WUStL, and Emory have admits rates for blacks that are below the overall admit rate. </p>

<p>As azsxdc said, the best you can do is to work hard and hope for the best. Don't get worked up about others "stealing your spot." That's just silly. Find a way to make your application stand out. </p>

<p>If you're looking at a school like Duke or Brown, you have roughly a 8% chance if you're in the top 10% of your class; your chances are much smaller at HYP. If you're in the top 5%, you have roughly a 15% chance. Admissions is getting harder every year. Colleges are raising the bar- for everyone.</p>

<p>That said, what about it? More than 95% of colleges accept a lot more students than they reject, and Asians are considered a minority at quite a few decent colleges. Having a Harvard-or-bust mentality only increases anxiety and is stunting in the college search process.</p>

22

<p>Snoopy, so that there is money to give scholarships to those who need them.</p>

23

<p>proletariat2, I'm trying to say, if you gain benefit from this system, you don't have the right to blame the people who'are at a disadvantage for some un-controled aspects. </p>

<p>Suppose someone is born rich, he/she benefits from this "luck" as I put it.
He can enjoy his wealth, but I don't think he has the right to blame the poor people for being born poor. You get what I mean?
Poor: people who are screwed in affirmative action
rich: people who benefits from affirmative action</p>

<hr>

<p>I can understand people saying wealthy people have more advantage, so we should leave chance for the poor. But that has nothing to do with race! It's illogical. if an asian happens to be rich, and get rejected b/c he's rich; has more resources but didn't take fully advantage of it, and didn't perform as well as he ought to, then if he gets rejected, it's b/c of "him", not b/c of his race. I don't know if I expressed my opinion well enough, but my point is that you can measure by stuff that's controllable by applicants (eg. diligence, work ethic, achievements...etc) but you can't measure it by stuff they can't control. </p>

<p>After all, isn't it the most stupid thing to not accept someone just b/c they're too tall or too short? (I'm not talking about sports)
Same with skin color!</p>

24

<p>Does anyone think that CC seems to be overblown with the whole AA working against Asians? It seems like every month, there is another "Woe is my Asian race!" I think we have to consider, as I said before, that many CC-ers are Asian. </p>

<p>Yes, colleges should accept people solely on merit and talent. But I wonder. College is meant to be a time of experimenting and meeting new people. It would be odd to have Asians take over like half of the entire college population like at many UCs. <em>shrugs</em></p>

25

<p>than is it odd to have over half caucasions?
and why is UC odd?
you seem to give a lot of assertions.</p>

26

<p>actually, I've came up with a new idea.</p>

<p>Just like some caucasions like to whine about URMs, and asians like to whine about Affirmative actions.
If you're an asian american, think about international students who hae it MUCH worse than u do!
That'll make your life easier. :P</p>

27

<p>Asian International Students have it worst I guess :P</p>

<p>I think colleges look more from Asian students because they all do the same thing really -- asian parents really only push 1 goal -- one that some other asian has already completed. They believe in the magic formula: "Oh! This guy got in like this, so you can do that too!" Of course, every asian copies this after reading something like that from the asian newspaper. </p>

<p>Also...regarding that asian list...I'm Korean so I'll make some comments:</p>

<p>At least 2100.
True, most asians do strive for that, and it almost feels like a necessity since the smart asians do have high scores. I have 2200 composite myself.</p>

<p>4.0.
Err...a perfect gpa? That's hard for anyone, especially for Asians who don't do as well in the humanities. </p>

<p>Top 10% class rank is minimum.
Not as important as the other categories IMO...but yeah, asians do need at least that. Yeah I'm top 10% as well.</p>

<p>Plays an instrument or five.
LOL you guessed perfectly -- I do play 5: Bass Clarinet, Clarinet, Alto Saxophone, Tenor Saxophone and Baritone Saxophone</p>

<p>Awards in musical competitions.
Indeed -- Eastern, All-State, Region, County Band/Orchestra + Marching Band + Jazz Band</p>

<p>Science and math awards.
Asian Parents push for this -- so it's common on asian apps. Also, asians aren't really known for strength in the humanities anyway</p>

<p>A lot of community service hours.
Well, I wouldn't say hours -- I would say similar community service. Typical asians do hospital work.</p>

<p>Leadership positions in a lot of clubs.
Maybe some clubs -- but Asians aren't the dominant force at schools -- students will often vote for the popular caucasian. I've lost twice like that...although I was nominated by the teacher...</p>

<p>Usually plans to major in a type of science.
Many Asian parents will kill you if you don't...some threaten to exile you from the family -- scary. I'm planning engineering/pharmacy</p>

<p>Mostly has names like Andrew Wong and Sarah Ming.
Funny enough, I've never heard those names in my life.</p>

<p>So I fall into a good majority of those categories -- in other words, asians will need those to have a chance of being considered. They can't really get in any other way --</p>

<p>Legacy? Not to common yet
Athletic Recruitment? ROFL I've never seen an asian recruit.</p>

<p>So what't left? The hardest courseloads (sciences) , good grades and standardized testing. </p>

<p>Now the bar line comes down to the recs and essays -- I bet these will make it or break it.</p>

28

<p>In Response to:
Claims that Top-Tier Colleges Are Purposely Rejecting Top Applicants</p>

<p>Your thinking is illogical, based only on your own unreliable assumption. What do we call this? Ethnocentrism. Why? You are placing one culture on a pedistal and diverting the argument to fancy that culture, in this case its the Asian culture, and downplay ethnicities different from yours. </p>

<p>Furthermore, your line of thinking is illogical, as it is a stawman fallacy. It misses the point that though that applicant may be a brilliant Asian person, it's the attitude of this kid that turned off the admission committee, not his ethnicity. </p>

<p>Let us get real here people! Princeton does not have the time to sit down and say, 'Oh God, that's an Asian student, toss that app in the can stat!" No. Princeton does not do that--they do not have the time and furthermore patience to single out and destroy the lives of teenagers.</p>

<p>Your argument is unprincipled and lacks substantive evidence that must be present, as without proof that all Asians were rejected, that kid (kid is representative of his immaturity) does not have a peg to stand on. </p>

<p>Princeton is a very selective institution and it is unacceptable that anyone would use their minority status as a crutch to stand on, rather than being mature enough to admit that maybe it was not meant to be--maybe there were better things for him or her. </p>

<p>If I were Asian, I would be offended by the fact that not only did this kid embarrass himself, but also he knowingly, willingly, and intentionally, acted solely to defame and indemnify the name and ethics of a well-respected top-ranked college in the United States of America, Princeton University. If that does not say attitude problem, I do not know what does. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, we are forgetting other things. </p>

<p>Yale is a great school, why not be happy with that? No. This kid wants revenge. He maliciously prosecutes the institution that rejected him to make waves, to bring attention from media, and attempt to 'shock' us into dispair--so much, that we would avoid the very institution that many other successful Asian people have attended. No. This kid is immature and arrogant because he did not have the moral boundary or maturity to handle rejection. Get over it--that is what I have to say. If he is so bright, he should have no problem with that. </p>

<p>By the way, I concur with the previous post; this kid obviously has an "attitude." I have the same to say about the kids who send in the ten-page resume or "brag sheet," hoping it will cover up for a few wrong turns in their life. A bit of college advice: You are far more appealing to a potential college when you are less self-serving and more caring for others. Volunteer abroad, work at a Nursing Home, or work at a political even--do something other than whine. </p>

<p>Embarrassing yourself, not to mention knowingly, willingly, and intentionally, acting solely to defame and indemnify the name and ethics of a well-respected top-ranked college in the United States of America, Princeton, is not only immature, its firsthand evidence that the kid did not belong there and probably would not have done well with an attitude and immaturity.</p>

<p>That is My Perspective--well argued and supported, unlike your post.</p>

<p>For more see my commentary on: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=260420%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=260420&lt;/a>,
That post is regarding the Wall Street Journal Article on an "Asian student filing complaint against Princeton for discrimination."</p>

29

<p>I've noticed this phenomenon with the Chinese parents at my Chinese school.</p>

<p>After two girls got into Harvard, I would work in the office with one of the mothers of the lucky student. </p>

<p>Everyday she would be deluged with Asian parents asking exactly she had done to make her daughter so successful. She was always very modest (she was a great lady), and told people: "X just did what she liked. If she didn't like it, she dropped it. I've never pushed her to do anything." She even refused to give out her SAT score.</p>

<p>She did note that there were parents of very, very young children begging advice from this Ivy League mom so they could better raise their own children. Seriously. Asian parents (and most people unschooled in hyperselective admissions) just don't seem to realize there is no magical SAT, no magical EC that will get their child in a certain school. That is the major problem.</p>

<p>If they did, they would probably push their children to become profession fireeaters or something. Those crazy Asians.</p>

30

<p>Indeed lingbo -- in a couple of years asians will be trying to cure cancer in high school -- anything to get into a prestigious university/college. </p>

<p>Parents like that are screwing their kids futures...</p>

31

<p>LOL wow, how ridiculous can you fools get?</p>

<p>Asian parents are screwing their kids future because they want them to do good in school?</p>

<p>That just about ends it... I've heard a lot of B.S. coming from you non Asians BUT that JUST ENDS IT.</p>

<p>I don't even know HOW to resopnd to that kind of ignorant ******** coming from you racist, stereotyping asses who think discriminatory practices based on the color of one's skin is okay...</p>

32

<p>One question...is an Asian with a greencard an Asian 'American' or just an Asian?</p>

33

<p>Every parent would love his/her child to get into Harvard. It is the ultimate symbol of intelligence and success in high school. Getting into Harvard does not mean you are one of the best high school students of that year, but it symbolizes that. Harvard is a brand name and nothing more. It smbolizes a parent's goal for getting their child into a good college. Asians, more than other races, push their children to succeed in school and apply to top universities. That creates more competitinion at a select few colleges. A college as small as Harvard or Princeton does not want to be more than 30% Asian, unless there are that many amazing Asians in one year. They will try to keep the number of Asians down, while also searching for URMs and keeping places for top legacies. These colleges have the luxury of choosing who they admit and do not go crazy over perfect stats. The 4.0 2400 asian who plays violin and has a few academic awards will not stand out as much as the 3.85 2200 asian who plays varsity football and is class president. Admissions is not emperical and there is no telling who gets into the Ivys after passing a certan GPA and SAT cutoffs (you can get in if you miss those cutoffs, but will need a little more than the average person) becasue so much relys on you fitting the profile the college is looking for.</p>

<p>Also, the URMs at top colleges are very qualified, but may not be as spectacular as an Asian or white. I hate when people knock the URMs and say they only get in for their skin color. That is not 100% true. Also, I would not like to go to a college that is less than 5% combined blacka and latino. </p>

<p>Legacies at top colleges fall under 2 categories: big spenders and normal legacies. The big spenders are 10 generations and/or have donated millions to the college. They get big boosts in admissions, but do not always get in. One of Bush's daughters did not go to Yale and JFK Jr did not get into Harvard. They must have been really really dumb though. Frist's son got into Princeton, mostly because of his connections, but wasn't that horrendous of a student, and these sorts of people take limited seats every year. The normal legacies are like me. My dad went to top U and has done nothing. He has not been an active alum and has donated less than 1k since he graduated 20 years ago. He is very proud of his degree, but has not done nearly as much as some alums. I doubt the fact my dad went there will help me much. </p>

<p>Being Asain just means that we need to do a tad more than the average admit to a college. For 99% of colleges out there, we just need 50 points on the SAT more (tops), and only if the college has a lot of asians (there are many college lacking asians). For top colleges, you need to stand out. It is harder to stand out doing stereotypical asian stuff, but possible if you are tops in the country.</p>

34

<p>venkater- excellent post</p>

<p>jh12000- Permanent residents are considered domestic applicants rather than internationals. </p>

<p>karupt- Calm down. Nobody is saying that parents who want their child to get into a good college are wrong or stupid. lingbo commented that some Asian parents push their children to emulate their successful peers. For example, my sister has an Asian friend whose parents are forcing her to work at a lawyer's office after school, although she has no interest in law. These actions, good-intentioned though they may be, are usually not conducive to a successful application process. Any applicant who stands out in the applicant pool by "breaking the mold" has better chances than the applicants with laundry lists of similar activities, grades, test scores, and career goals.</p>

35

<p>"than is it odd to have over half caucasions?
and why is UC odd?
you seem to give a lot of assertions."</p>

<p>For the taking over of colleges, I was referring to top colleges that would admit students with blind eyes towards race. That is why I referred to the UCs which does not or is not supposed to fill race quotas. A good number of UCs have Asians as half the population of their schools. If all colleges were blind to race, wouldn't you think the Asian admittance at top schools would increase? </p>

<p>And I am guessing that many CC-ers are Asian seeing that many who post in "What are my chances?" describe themselves as Asians.</p>

36

<p>What people seem to forget is that there are a handful of amazing people in every grade. They do everything. Captain of varsity sport, class president, amazing internship, great personality, 4.0 in hardest classes, 2400 without the years of prep some people do for SATs, and on and on without any push from the parents. These people are truly amazing and deserve to go where they please for college. However, it creates problems when an average student has to follow in those footsteps.</p>

<p>One example would be me and a family friend. I am an above average student and poised to get into one of USNWR's top 30 colleges. One of my mom's friends is pushing her two sons to be like me. She wants them to do similar ECs and take the same classes. These two boys (twins in 10th grade, I'm a senior) do not have the same natural abilities I do (except all three of us do not take our instruments seriously). I have had very few Bs and am ecceling at several academic ECs. These boys have failing grades in physics and other tough classes, and are just average students. However, their mom wants to push them to get into top colleges when they are not the type and is possibly ruining highschool for them. Parents have to realize that not everyone is smart and not everyone is going to get into Harvard (my parents realized this long ago and have let me do my thing for the most part) and need to set realistic goals for their children. However, parents should nurture their children's interests and help them pursue ECs that cator to those intersets.</p>

37

<p>I'm Indian, and therefore am in the Asian umbrella....though it is definitely easier for URM's to get into college (Rutgers blatantly shows this as per their medical program, URM's need a minimum of a 1200(?) for a med program, while others need at least a 1400) but I don't necessarily think that there is a huge prejudice against Asians. Venkater makes two excellent points by saying that though we hate the fact that everybody else stereotypes us as the musically inclined, stat beasts...colleges will also have the same bias and thus will be more inclined for the asian that is less strong academically and more strong personably. We do need to stand up and show that we can excel in something else but math or science and instruments. Parents end up taking the safe route with us, going with the proven methods of excellence and end up taking less risks.
I wanted to try out for football, but my parents didn't allow me and wanted me to take up an instrument. I ended up dropping the trombone anyway. Everyone is different, but we're all being bunched up in the same way, abetted by colleges, parents, and public opinion alike. We just need to find ways of becoming or showing that we're different. The only problem is that it gets harder and harder to become unique year after year.</p>

<p>But we already knew that.</p>

38

<p>
[quote]
can asians like pretend they are black by checking it off on the admissions thing? They can then wear facepaint at the college

[/quote]
</p>

<p>good idea, seriously, all asians should consider this option if his/her name is not obviously asain. </p>

<p>Why???</p>

<p>because the applications always ask you what race do you mostly** identified** with.
you think Eminem is "identified" as white?
asains should identify themselves as whatever they choose to be identified with, it's a choice. </p>

<p>And F*** with affirmative action. it's simply not fair to whites and asians. what ever happend to equal rights and such things? how un-american can you get when you bar someone from college based on race?</p>

<p>sure, white people did some shameful stuff to the minorities( including asians) way back then, but it's really getting old. it's a new generation.
it doesn't make sense to classify people based on race when the goal is to eliminate discrimination.
if affirmative action is intended for solving social economical problems, then it should judge people based on their parent incomes and family hardships, don't bring up BS about disadvantage for URM.
cause they're not the only ones with disadvantages.</p>

39

<p>doesn't that Gratz v. Bollinger case about UMich admission policy say anything to counter Affirmative actions in legality?
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratz_v._Bollinger%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratz_v._Bollinger&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>ACLU really should consider protecting the majority for once.</p>

40

<p>"how un-american can you get when you bar someone from college based on race?"</p>

<p>Get a grip. No one is being "barred from college based on race." American principles are based on opportunity & access, but neither opportunity nor access necessarily equals results when there is a limited supply of anything. You are guaranteed opportunity to <em>compete</em> for those goods & services. If you don't happen to be chosen for the narrow range of Universities acceptable to you, you will be admitted to one of the excellent alternative 4-yr Universities which also offer a supremely good education.</p>

<p>And it is inherently racist (not to mention arrogant) to assume that everyone with superior "qualifications" who is turned away from the finite supply of seats at particular universities is necessarily Asian. It's convenient not to mention, or even be aware, that plenty of non-Asian students who are equally "qualified" as Asians are turned away in very strong numbers as well.</p>

<p>Some of you have no perspective, no understanding of the broader picture. And a mind like that is not ready for college, let alone an "elite" one.</p>

<p>As to the "ethnic idenfication/racial identification" questions on college apps, that was originally inserted to prevent complete domination by one race (previously, Caucasian). It was intended to be inclusive, not exclusive. Most universities is this country strive for a variety in representation. They don't have particular quotas; they just don't want sameness, and that would include not wanting a lopsided geographical representation, either. If you come from an overrepresented geographical region + an overrepresented ethnic group -- without originality, uniqueness apparent in your background, your accomplishments, & expressed in the application -- you can expect that it will <em>appear</em> harder for you to gain admittance, because of the "sameness" factor. It will be very hard for you to distinguish yourself in such a field.</p>

<p>But here's a radical thought: Gee, why not stop applying only to the exact same universities that similar applicants from the same region are applying to? Wow, never thought of that!</p>