<p>It seems like this board has become a mish-mosh of ferocious debate between people who view Wash U as a second-tier insitution with no class and people who see Wash U as an academically strong school that's trying to move up and establish itself as one of the nation's top universities. The Wash U dissenters seem to largely be complaining about Wash U's marketing and admissions strategies. There seems to be a general consensus that Wash U is acting the way it is because it is trying to "move up". Which leads me to my question:</p>
<p>Since when are institutions (schools, businesses, hospitals, towns, colleges, laboratories, stores, etc.) that are trying to improve themselves and establish themselves as leaders in their area seen as inferior. Yes, many insitutions use advertising glitz and market-savy but sometimes unorthodox methods to achieve their improvements, but why is that a bad thing? Shouldn't the fact that Wash U is trying very hard to become one of the leaders in higher education be a good thing? They may use some questionable means (eg. waitlists and junkmail) and some less controversial means (eg. construction of new dorms, hiring of new facutly) to move up, but shouldn't fact that Wash U is working so hard on improvement be a big point in it's favor?</p>
<p>No one accepted complains, neither those who just threw their applications to see what happen and didn’t get it.
It seems that the problem is being waitlisted. I see the waitlist as a new chance for those who want to be part of the school, and a way to show the applicants they are good but since the spots are limited, there is no room for everyone.
No top 25 schools is a safety unless you are one of the president’s children. Advertising doesn’t mean you are force to buy the marketed product unless you are a compulsive buyer. Marketing is the best tool to attract the best candidates (and the future buyers) and doesn’t mean that it has to come from unknown places, Coca Cola advertises all the time, and there isn’t a single soul in the world that doesn’t know Coca Cola.</p>
<p>Well, WashU's massive marketing campaign last year sure got our attention! A flood of brochures and mailings showing up at one's door on a weekly basis over a long period of time is an experience open to interpretation. A mature adult might look at this and think: "Hmmm. Slick, smart promotional campaign; they're sure getting their name out there in an effort to attract top applicants." A less worldly teenager might think: "Hey, this is really encouraging--they must be very interested to send me all this stuff!" One or two informational mailings would have done quite nicely, would have saved the school money, and would have diminished the "tease factor." As it was, WashU lavished expensive and flattering attention on thousands of high school seniors, encouraging them to believe they had a legitimate shot at admission when, in fact, they probably didn't. </p>
<p>I think WashU is a great academic institution--no doubt about it. I just question their misleading promotional style. For WashU (and undoubtedly many other insitutions of higher learning), it's a numbers game. To the kids who get their hopes up only to have them dashed, it's a heartbreaking dose of reality.</p>
<p>All the schools send lots of mailings, my house was filled with brochures from Caltech, Georgia Tech, MIT, the Ivies and Olin, and even overseas universities, they always target those kids that they might be good for their school, but that doesn’t mean they would accept those kids once they gather all the information about them. Many people forget that the mailings are sent before having all the stats, recommendations and essays from that specific student, so the student is potentially good, but maybe is not what they were looking for, or he was, but there weren’t enough vacancies to accommodate every good student and they just have to guess who would be better among them. About 2% of the United States population is gifted, that means that a huge number of excellent candidates would be applying to what they considered being the best schools, shouldn’t we, as parents, warn our kids before applying about the real scenery? We make frustrations in our kids by telling them they are the best in the world, we should be more realistic and telling them they are very good and they have the chance to compete but that doesn’t mean they are entitled to get what they want because there are other kids in the same condition.
My kids had frustrations with things they didn’t get, but they move on and I learned with them to move on too.</p>
<p>You make some valid points, Cressmom. Especially your last comment learning to move on. ... Our family didn't have the same experience you did with college brochures. We received one or two from a multitude of top colleges over the months, including Yale, but WashU was the only school that kept sending us one mailing after another. Encouraging? You bet. It was almost relentless: "Please--apply, apply, apply! You'll love it here! Look what we can do for you! OK, never mind. ..." I think we all understand (more or less) the very real potential for disappointment in the college application process--being waitlisted or rejected is a learning experience and a reality of life. Yep, you can't always get what you want. ...</p>
<p>I'm not sure why people say WashU is "over-rated." It's not. Clearly over the past couple of decades, it has become a very high top-tier school, with increasing numbers of Rhodes Scholars, etc. coming out of its programs. My only problem is its over-the-top promotional tactics.</p>
<p>I guess I don't really have a grasp on how much mailing WashU sends out. When I was looking at colleges, WashU sent me a good amount of mail, but no more than schools such as Carnegie Mellon, Lehigh, and Emory. Georgetown however, sent me even more mail than WashU sent me. I applied early action to Georgetown, visited the campus, interviewed, yet was deferred to regular admission, and later rejected. Did I complain that Georgetown was overrated? No. I just figured that I wasn't what they were looking for, even after the many mailings.</p>
<p>It's unfair to characterize the mailings as begging kids to apply. We got a lot of those mailings last year and what they said to us was: look closely at what we offer here. Simple as that. Consider this school, come for a visit. That's the message my son got. </p>
<p>Washu, if it could be moved with the same buildings, programs, and faculty to within a train ride of D.C., N.Y., Philly, or Chicago, would not have to heavily advertise to get the prospective students it wants to come and visit. I maintain that the excessive mailings are designed to get students and parents to make the extra trip out to St. Louis to visit the school because experience tells officials that those who visit are more likely to apply. It worked for us. The advertising, marketing, whatever you call it is not designed to beg underqualified students to pointlessly apply. They're designed to draw in kids like my S in CA who read in one of the mailings about a perfect program for him, which brought Washu to the top of his list and put it on our itinerary for a visit. Even as a NMF, he did not see himself as a shoo-in there and was relieved and happy when he was admitted. Anyone who actually reads the materials in depth would know how selective the school is.</p>
<p>I agree completely with JazzyMom. My D, who is #1 in her class and a NMF, was not originally considering Wash U because of the location. However, the mailings showed her a campus and an environment that seemed ideal for her, and a trip to St. Louis confirmed that. She was delighted to be accepted because, in spite of her qualifications, she never felt as though there was any guarantee! </p>
<p>As far as we are concerned, the school has a brilliant marketing campaign and ultimately attracts the kind of top students it is aiming for. Anyone who feels that receiving lots of brochures from a school means that they are assured acceptance is not thinking straight. All of the literature indicates that the school is selective and there is no implied offer of admission anywhere.</p>
<p>Congratulations to all who were accepted and good luck to those on the waiting list or those that have applied to other schools!</p>
<p>I notice that with a few exceptions, parents whose kids were accepted to WashU get defensive when a waitlisted kid rants, or a parent takes a protective stance in regard to his/her child. You personally have no reason to be upset with WashU and have every reason to be irritated when others say uncomplimentary things about the school. I fully understand that. But give them a break, OK? And try to have a heart.
These kids all know what a good school WashU is or they wouldn't have applied in the first place. Most, if not all, were interested in attending--some more than others. It's human nature to react negatively in situations like this; it's also human nature to heal and move on. Right now it's the reacting phase. These posters are young, disappointed, or downright heartbroken. The last thing they need to hear right now are adults singing the high praises of WashU, taking digs at them for having dared to be hopeful against the odds, and implying that the waitlisters are somehow just not "special" enough for the school. (Yeah, we all know that the Junior Swiss Yodeling champion of the world is a better, more exciting catch than the boring high-stats newspaper editor. Enough already!)
... MomtoTwo--Nobody said that receiving lots of brochures equaled assured acceptance. I noted only that it could seem deceptively encouraging to a young mind, one that is not savvy to the ways of big business and mass marketing. You can tell a son or daughter not to get excited by a bombardment of promotional literature from a school that seems to have taken an almost fanatical interest in them--but will they listen?</p>
<p>hindoo:
It's human nature for people to vent. And it's human nature for people to defend something they're invested in (where my kid goes to college) against accusations that seem unfair. You call Washu's mailings "over the top promotion" designed to "tease" impressionable teenagers into applying without a thought to how competitive the school is. I don't see it that way. I'm not allowed to disagree? </p>
<p>I don't really know if their mail campaign is excessive or not. They have to advertise more than colleges located in the NE and around the biggest cities because Missouri and St. Louis is kind of a hard sell to a lot of people and Washu doesn't want to totally lose out on many students who might initially never think of even visiting. Whether they should send only a few materials or as much as they think it takes for students to gain interest is not something I can answer. I just take umbrage with the characterization that Washu officials are "spamming" kids, teasing them with false hopes, "recruiting" them when the mailings do not recruit but inform, and other negative depictions of what advertising is. They send out a lot of mail because people throw out a lot of mail and maybe someone will take a look the second time around. They have great programs to publicize and they want to reach a large number of students and encourage them to consider the school, visit, and apply IF it's a good fit for them. But any student who does decide to apply would have to have done enough research to know that Washu is highly selective and the type of school where admission is unpredictable (or a crapshoot as some like to say). That's not meant as a dig at anybody.</p>
<p>"You call Washu's mailings "over the top promotion" designed to "tease" impressionable teenagers into applying without a thought to how competitive the school is."</p>
<p>Do you really think these smart kids didn't have a thought as to how competitive WashU is? You're not giving them enough credit. In fact, many are high-achieving kids without a ton of life experience, who may have felt flattered and "singled" out for attention, and that the school was legitimately interested in them, rather than playing a numbers game.
Why take umbrage? You're not the one spamming kids. Nor are the WashU professors, students, etc. It's the marketing branch of the corporate empire. ... </p>
<p>The assumption that smart, quality students won't know WashU exists because of its obscure St. Louis location doesn't work for me. WashU is an extremely high-profile school in a very sizable, well-known city that has a lot to offer.
As for their many mailings, you're right. They do not explicitly "recruit," but implicitly "encourage." Receiving one lovely brochure might make a student think about WashU. Receiving numerous informative letters, brochures, cards, updates, etc., would seem to convey a rather extraordinary level of interest.<br>
Jazzymom--You are an articulate WashU supporter, and you should be! I appreciate that you've been helpful and kind in your postings, and never condescending to the waitlisters (as some others have been). At one point, I even referred one angry young poster to something you had written on a different thread. You are entirely, absolutely, 100% allowed to disagree with me or anyone else. ... Actually, truth be known, I'm far less annoyed by WashU's marketing campaign than I am by the cold, rather heartless tone of some adult posters here. I think that's why I've suddenly become belligerent and so incredibly verbose! Please, take no offense.</p>
<p>Just my two cents (as a waitlisted senior):</p>
<p>Everyone seems to be ranting about how WashU is trying to attract lots of students to apply, even though they will probably reject them. Statistically, the probability of getting an acceptance are low (~.18), as is true with all highly selective colleges. Rejection/waitlist should not really come as a total shock at this level, just looking at the odds. No one is entitled to an acceptance anywhere, EVEN to a school without a bumper-sticker name in the mid-West. I don't think that anyone should under or overestimate college admissions.</p>
<p>Furthermore, during my college admissions research, I read books like The Gatekeepers (Wesleyan) and Admissions Confidential (Duke), where the admissions officers confessed to enthusiastically encouraging as many kids as possible to apply, just to reject them later on due to selectivity. All schools want a low acceptance rate, and they also want the best kids. Marketing tackles both of those issues.</p>
<p>I agree that WashU's advertising was a bit over the top, and that they could have cut it down quite a bit and used their money elsewhere. However, I really don't understand the really vicious remarks that this has sparked. A bit wasteful? Yes. But not the great evil that people seem to be talking about. All those mailings may have gotten some kids' hopes up, but I think that at age 18, they should be mature enough not to fall for every piece of advertising and media they see.</p>
<p>Sorry if I came across as harsh or whatnot, but that's the way I see it. I am glad to be offered a second chance at admission, and I will take them up on their offer.</p>
<p>Hindoo - what is it I'm missing? You have referred to the "cold heartless tone" of some of the posters on this thread, and I just don't see it. Several, including myself, disagree with you about appropriateness the marketing techniques of the university, but I haven't seen one message insulting the waitlisters. You mentioned people "taking digs at them for having dared to be hopeful against the odds, and implying that the waitlisters are somehow just not "special" enough for the school." Where was that? In fact, the only insults I have seen on the Wash U threads are those from the waitlisted people who say that they are more qualified than those who were accepted, which is clearly just venting. Obviously, since none of us are privy to the applications of the others, we have no realistic way to compare the applicants.</p>
<p>My child, for what it's worth, received as much if not more mail from other schools (including the University of Chicago and several other top institutions). Marketing is a tool, and different schools choose to use it differently.</p>
<p>It is upsetting that anyone has to be hurt by any part of the college admission process. I would never insult or belittle anyone who is going through this process.</p>
<p>I am upset that I wasted time and money applying. Yes, I got the waitlist, and yes, I believe it's because I'm one of the "overqualified" students. I will probably be accused of being pompous, but oh well. Fact is, I know at least five seniors at my school who have been admitted, all with worse grades, test scores, and easier courseloads than me. A friend with comparable qualifications to me was also waitlisted. Sure, there is more to the application than the numbers. But I really doubt they had essays and recommendations that were significantly better than mine...remember, I know these people.</p>
<p>I don't know why they would send me so many solicitations then not admit me just because they think I won't go. If they think that, then they shouldn't have sent me stuff in the first place to give me false hopes. No, I probably wouldn't have gone to Wash U anyway. But if midrange matches and safeties don't admit you, then that defeats the whole purpose of applying to them.</p>
<p>Arti, it probably does not matter to you whether washu accept or waitlist you, because you are likely to be accepted by some schools rank higher than Wash U. I have heard several applicants waitlisted or rejected by Washu and accepted by schools rank higher.</p>
<p>"Hindoo - what is it I'm missing? You have referred to the "cold heartless tone" of some of the posters on this thread, and I just don't see it."</p>
<p>Here are some samples from the various (recent) WashU threads: </p>
<p>"...The highest GPA ever means nothing if your are the kind of kid who only dabbles in ECs to look good on applications and never passionately contributes to the school environment."</p>
<p>"You could be valedictorian of your extremely competitive high school, but if it comes across that you're not going to contribute to the vibrance of the WashU community, they're not going to accept you."</p>
<p>"The interview ... the essays. If the student doesn't feel genuine ..."</p>
<p>"In the case of Wash U, there's a certain type of student--very smart, friendly, outgoing."</p>
<p>"WUSTL looks for students with the highest abilities to succeed, and it does a good job finding them." </p>
<p>That's just a sampling. There's plenty more of the same hogwash. So what are the waitlisters to take from this? That they don't have the ability to succeed, that they're not smart, friendly, outgoing, passionate, or "special" enough, that they only "dabble" in their ECs for the sake of their resume, that they are fake and ungenuine, that they are dull, stats-only kids incapable of contributing to the "vibrancy" of the college community. What a bunch of bull! It's not WashU I resent, but the arrogant spate of posters who think nothing of denigrating kids who are already dealing with a rejection of sorts.</p>
<p>Hindoo-
seeing as how the first couple of quotes are from me, I feel obligated to reply. I apologize that my words came across as "cold and heartless". I agree that they are harsh-sounding. In no way did I mean that the waitlisted people are not great people who won't succeed at whatever they do.
Yet the reason that those thoughts popped into my mind is that there seem to be a lot of posters who arrogantly assume that they are automatically "overqualified" to attend WashU if they were put on the waitlist. What do these kinds of statements do to the lucky applicants who were accepted into WashU? It kind of takes the happiness and excitement and turns it slightly less happy. In those particular quotes, I was rebutting some comments that people made, claiming that if you had perfect stats, it was impossible to get into WashU. It is the "I got into Harvard, but was waitlisted at WashU. WashU is evil, and a terrible school playing a game with people" commenters that those posts were directed at, and I should have specified it. I did not mean for my comments to be applied to the other applicants on the waitlist, who most likely would have been (will be?) great students at WashU. Again, I am sorry. Congratulations to all those accepted, and may those on the waitlist find success and happiness in wherever they end up.</p>