<p>*Last year, 2010, approx 86,200 people took the MCAT. There are only about 18,000 slots total at all US med schools. *</p>
<p>The above was posted in another thread. </p>
<p>What's the number of applicants each year? </p>
<p>Now we know that it's not as if most/all of these applicants have similar/strong stats and just didn't happen to win the SOM Lottery. </p>
<p>So, who are these folks that don't get accepted to any SOMs? Are they people whose stats were so low that they really shouldn't have wasted their time and app money? Are they people who only applied to reach SOMs?</p>
<p>In 2010, there were 42,743 applicants and 18,664 matriculants. (So only about half of those who took the MCAT in 2010 actually ended up applying.)</p>
<p>This is a grid for 2008-2010 showing the gpa/mcat combo of applicants vs. matriculants at US med schools.</p>
<p>There are apparently some individuals with low MCAT scores or low GPAs or low scores AND grades who apply every year. (35 applicants with GPAs below 2.0 AND MCAT score below 15!)</p>
<p>I’m sure there are also individuals who fail to win the SOM lottery because they applied too narrowly or to the wrong suite of schools. (All reach, or all too low ranked vs their stats). There are also individuals who have --shall we say personality flaws–that get weeded out in the interview process. There are some who fail to get their applications done in a timely manner (whether because they don’t understand the process, are misinformed or are just disorganized) so get winnowed despite what appears to be a fine application package.</p>
<p>There are so many ways to get winnowed out of the acceptance pool…</p>
<p>There are apparently some individuals with low MCAT scores or low GPAs or low scores AND grades who apply every year. (35 applicants with GPAs below 2.0 AND MCAT score below 15!)</p>
<p>I have seen the links that show those stats. Makes you wonder why they would spend the time and money. </p>
<p>I’m sure there are also individuals who fail to win the SOM lottery because they applied too narrowly or to the wrong suite of schools. (All reach, .</p>
<p>Oh yeah, I get that…the ones who either are prestige hounds or their parents are (Top 20 or nuthin’)</p>
<p>or all too low ranked vs their stats)</p>
<p>I guess that that is theoretically possible, but why would someone do that? …unless they were suiciding at one or two schools for a personal reason. </p>
<p>*
There are also individuals who have --shall we say personality flaws–that get weeded out in the interview process. *</p>
<p>^^^ Makes you wonder how they ever got the LORs to get to the interview process. </p>
<p>*There are some who fail to get their applications done in a timely manner (whether because they don’t understand the process, are misinformed or are just disorganized) *</p>
<p>Now this I totally understand happens. I have an OOS niece who twice applied too late (two cycles!!!) and this will be her 3rd attempt. Don’t know when she got her apps in this time. (and she went to a well-known LAC…you’d think that she would have been better advised. Maybe she was, but stubborn disorganization prevailed).</p>
<p>I also was very surprised to learn that a friend’s D graduated from college in May, but didn’t take the MCAT until Sept and then did her apps (not sure if she had to wait for scores or not) to get things going. That seemed like either self-sabotage or ridiculous advising. What’s the point of taking a Glide Year if you’re still going to apply late?</p>
A young man’s or a young woman’s priority may be different from those of us who have been through most of our lives. For example, I heard that Steve Jobs at young age went to a jungle somewhere in Asian in order to find his soul or the purpose of his life. (I bet he would be glad he had done so when he was on his death bed – otherwise he had been working well too hard throughout most of his relatively short life.) There are plenty of people (especially those who have been well-sheltered their whole life) at that stage of the life may care about something else that we may regard as unimportant.</p>
<p>I think DS may know several who would spend a couple of years just trying to figure out what their next stage of life would be.</p>
<p>Maybe you didn’t understand my question. My question was…Why would someone take a Glide Year (with the absolute intent of applying DURING that Glide Year) and still not get their act together to get their apps in on time (and take the MCAT at a more timely date)? </p>
<p>I can somewhat understand being late when the applicant is still a student, but the purpose of applying during the Glide Year is so that you don’t have school distractions and you can get things done on time.</p>
<p><a href=“with%20the%20absolute%20intent%20of%20applying%20DURING%20that%20Glide%20Year”>quote</a> and still not get their act together to get their apps in on time
[/quote]
Some may say they have the absolute intent of applying during that glide year, but actually they do not. Also, it is not always very easy for many people to get their act together to get things done in time. If everybody can get his/her act together, there may be much fewer failures in the world.</p>
<p>In our family, if a member could get his/her act, say, a little bit more than 50 percents of time, we would think he/she has led a relatively successful life. An anecdotal example: DS had a glide year but he had not taken MCAT till the second half of May (around the time he graduated.) He did not get his act together to complete most of applications in June/July. But in the end, in spite of all these imperfections, it is still a “happy ending”: He managed to get into at least a medical school. What I try to convey is that, by human’s nature, there are more slackers than non-slackers in this world. As long as you slack a little bit less than others in your position, it may still be good enough. Boy…I get a little bit philosophical today :)</p>
<p>^ I would like to clarify that DS is definitely not a slacker (even though the “tone” in what I posted above may mislead the reader as such), considering the fact that he was one of those 1233 high-stats applicants between 2008 and 2010 in the “upper-right corner” category in the grid posted by WayOutWestMom above, and I am very proud of what he has achieved. I do not want to come out as an unappreciative parent.</p>
<p>Also, it is not always very easy for many people to get their act together to get things done in time. If everybody can get his/her act together, there may be much fewer failures in the world.</p>
<p>True…and it’s like that med schools use the “early bird gets the worm” strategy because they think they’ll get less slackers that way. </p>
<p>I know that you weren’t saying that your son is a slacker. It sounds like you’re just saying that he may not be the “earliest bird searching for a worm,” but he’s definitely not one of the last. :)</p>
<p>We may be facing this issue in our own family this next summer. Son is not a slacker at all, but for some reason, he’s not completely grasping the idea of getting those apps in early. He keeps lining up more and more things to do when Spring semester ends… :(</p>
<p>He was also shocked when I recently told him how much we’re budgeting to pay for apps and interviews. He had no idea the process can cost that much. He’s had his mind on the GPA/MCAT/EC’s part…but none of the “housekeeping” part.</p>
<p>D1 was also one of those who submitted later <cough–late august–cough=""> in the cycle apps. Mostly due to very bad advice from a source she trusted. Also she’s mildly ADD and this contributed to some mix ups about deadlines and timelines. Still like mcat2’s S, she did get her acceptance in the end and that’s all that matters.</cough–late></p>
<p>When D2 starts the process next year (or more likely 2013), I know she’ll be an early bird since she’s finishes everything way before deadlines. (She’s also much more likely to listen to her mother’s advice than D1 was.)</p>
<p>But with both kids, I was/will be hands off. It’s their life and they need to ‘own the process’ because in the end, they’re the ones who have to live with the outcomes.</p>
<p>Bad advice and poor/no guidance probably also contribute to getting no acceptances (when you have the stats to get one or two).</p>
<p>After realizing that my son had no idea of how much the app process will cost, it makes me wonder if that also causes some problems with kids whose parents haven’t thought ahead to make sure the money is there. I can imagine some kids get to the point of applying and then “do the math”. So, then a delay occurs while the student and/or family cobbles together the money.</p>
<p>*Also she’s mildly ADD and this contributed to some mix ups about deadlines and timelines. Still like mcat2’s S, she did get her acceptance in the end and that’s all that matters.</p>
<p>When D2 starts the process next year (or more likely 2013), I know she’ll be an early bird since she’s finishes everything way before deadlines. (She’s also much more likely to listen to her mother’s advice than D1 was.)*
Sounds like S1 and S2 for me. My S1 is like your D1 and S2 is like your D2. S1 will be applying next year, I am guessing (because he tends say nothing if he disagrees with me). Thanks for the GPA-MCAT table, quite informative. Anyone with *GPA<3.2 and MCAT<27 * has a less than 20% chance.</p>
<p>Would this cohort be included in any AAMC stats compilation? It seems to me that you were either a valid applicant or you were not.</p>
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</p>
<p>Must we be so judgmental? Perhaps there exist perfectly valid reasons for the choices people make. I plan to apply to several MSTP’s. My list contains a lot of well known names <em>because</em> they have the programs which interest me. I have recently decided that I will NOT apply anywhere else, including my state MS. Why? NOT because I’m a “prestige hound”, but because that’s not what I want to do. If I can’t be a physician/scientist, on my terms, then I will just be a scientist. </p>
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</p>
<p>Does this really happen? IF it did, how would schools defend themselves from lawsuits? Someone could easily make the argument that they are already behaving as an illegal cartel. So why would they do such things and bring further scrutiny?</p>
<p>I personally know of a case where someone went through this process, was accepted but instead chose to pursue a different opportunity. I’ve wondered how many others out there just change their minds, or had set themselves up for various (non-medical) options. If the numbers are significant, this could explain some of the stats.</p>
<p>Of course they would be included in the stats. In fact, I think the most common reason for a seemingly good applicant (with good MCAT/GPA) to not get accepted anywhere is because they applied late. The threshold for getting an interview rises throughout the interview season as a medical school’s interview slots get depleted. Thus, while you may have been able to get an interview by applying June, you may not get that interview if you apply in September.</p>
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</p>
<p>MSTP is different since only top medical schools even have MSTP programs. Even so, I encourage you to apply broadly as well, especially to MSTP. Yes, Harvard and Johns Hopkins have MSTP programs. But, so do lower ranked med schools like Northwestern or Mt. Sinai.</p>
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<p>I would say that your friend is the exception rather than the rule. Taking the MCAT is an expensive and arduous process, as is the process of applying to med school. Very very few applicants get accepted to med school and then choose not to attend.</p>
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<p>Lawsuits for what? Protecting their yield? A medical school has plenty of reasons for rejecting an applicant, including if they don’t think the applicant would actually attend. Yield protection becomes especially prominent when you apply to residency.</p>
<p>Ok, I get it. You don’t really mean “too late”, you mean “late” in the process not after the due date. Sometimes I take things too literally. :)</p>
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<p>True, however, there are funded MD/PhD programs appearing almost everywhere you look. Even the tiny UT branch in my parents home town has one. The point I was trying to make was that I don’t just want to be an MD. If I have to choose between PhD or MD, I will choose PhD. That means I will not be applying anywhere that doesn’t have a MSTP.</p>
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<p>That would be my guess, but I have no data to support it. Do you?</p>
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<p>Sure. If a top student, for whatever reason, only applied to a few mid tier schools and didn’t get in to any? Sounds like a tort to me. At the very least, grounds for a demand for equity. But I’m not a lawyer, I just read a lot.</p>
<p>A med school is allowed to define the criteria for which they base their admissions. As you know, it is not a numbers game where the highest scoring applicants automatically get accepted. There are plenty of soft factors involved.</p>
<p>1) There is no grounds for any kind of a lawsuit in the first place for yield protection. Med schools are not obligated to choose the student with the best application. As we see with college admissions, if you’re an athlete or a legacy or a URM, you have an inside track.</p>
<p>2) Even if you can sue, it’s almost impossible to prove that was specifically the reason you were rejected. A med school can always claim it was your recs or your essays or your EC’s. A midwest med school is not going to admit they rejected you because you’re from California and no one ever chooses to go to the Midwest from California.</p>
<p>Happens all the time. Applicants whose stats/profile are too far above the average matriculants at said mid tier schools usually don’t even get interviews to them.</p>
<p>There are certainly many who believe this. I did a quick search of threads on this topic and found mixed results. There were certainly many who were convinced they were victims of this perceived practice, although some did admit that they may have had “other issues” with their applications. There were also many others who reported that they received “very quick” or “instant” interview invites from schools who’s average stats were well below theirs. (one even posting he was told he got the FIRST interview) There were even some reports going both ways from the same institution (RF in Chicago)? </p>
<p>There were also many posts from seemingly credible (moderators, school administrators) who were adamant that such things NEVER happen and some students posting that they were told in person by administrators (from Mich.) that they DID do these things. My only first hand experience was a smile and comment that these things are myths, from an east coast admin. So it appears there is no consensus on this. Maybe this occurs only at specific institutions? I can only hope the stories are myths.</p>
<p>@norcalguy, I read your post after returning last night from a party and started doing a point by point rebuttal.(complete with case law and citations It quickly exploded and I didn’t post it. So here’s a summary. </p>
<p>The Supreme Court has directed lower courts to give great deference to educators (under the concept of academic freedom, which includes the right to decide who may teach, what is taught, how to teach, and who may be admitted to study" (Sweezy v. New Hampshire, 1957, p. 263). However, these decisions must be “professional”, consistent with “academic norms”, but must not be “arbitrary”, “discriminatory”, or in “bad faith”.
Your point number 2 was interesting. I suggest that in your spare time, read a little about how the system works. Specifically how “discovery” works in law. </p>
<p>If you would like the long version of this post, just ask :)</p>
<p>There are a bunch of MD/PhD programs that are NOT MSTPs, and many of them are just as funded as MSTPs except that the funding comes from anything other than the NIH and these are typically lower ranked schools. There is only one reason to apply EXCLUSIVELY to MSTPs, and that is prestige of being in the NIH program. If money is a factor, as stated, there are other schools that can provide you with just as much money without the NIH name brand. There are even more programs that are MD/PhDs without having as much funding as the NIH such that if one really wants to be an MD/PhD, there are certainly enough schools to apply to have pretty good odds of getting into at least 1.</p>
<p>With regard to the whole “lawsuit” ridiculousness, as norcalguy said, it would be impossible to prove that you were rejected for “unjust” reasons seeing as med school admissions is not only about being good enough, but also about being better than all the other applicants. You would essentially have to find an applicant that you could unequivocally prove was a worse fit for the institution than you were. Good luck with that.</p>
<p>To what extent things like being from far away or being “too good” for a school matter is of course unknown, but they definitely do play SOME factor. I had interviewers ask me flat out why I expected them to believe that I (being from NYC and going to college in New England) would come to school for 7-8 years (I’m MD/PhD so I’ll admit this probably plays a bigger role than a 4 yr MD) in places like Ohio or Texas. I ultimately did not get in to any of those schools despite getting into “higher ranked” east coast institutions.</p>
Perhaps there exist perfectly valid reasons for the choices people make. I plan to apply to several MSTP’s. My list contains a lot of well known names <em>because</em> they have the programs which interest me. I have recently decided that I will NOT apply anywhere else, including my state MS. Why? NOT because I’m a “prestige hound”, but because that’s not what I want to do. If I can’t be a physician/scientist, on my terms, then I will just be a scientist. </p>
I just read a lot.</p>
It quickly exploded and I didn’t post it. So here’s a summary. </p>