<p>Upenn announced Class of 2017=31,219 total Apps. Rd =26,692 fighting for 1254 spots, ED Apps.4527 Apps. 1146 accepted. Thats 25% admit rate Ed!!! Please don’t bother claiming their all Athletes, Legacies etc.I wouldn’t want to be fighting those Regular decision odds.</p>
<p>No, while they are not **all ** recruited athletes, legacies, facbrats, developmental admits, but the overwhelming majority of the ED pool is made up of this population of students.</p>
<p>That’s is total nonsense. Please show me the source that would back up that conclusion.I would love to see it.</p>
<p>Only a teeny, tiny sample size, which as Xiggi points out has no statistical validity whatsoever, but as an exercise I checked on the ED admissions among kids we know personally for the school to which DS has been admitted. It’s one of those schools where ED acceptances rates are roughly twice what RD rates are.</p>
<p>6 ED applicants
Accepted: 1 nationally ranked athlete, 2 legacies
Deferred: 3 unhooked students</p>
<p>^ I have no idea what point you’re trying to make.</p>
<p>^Not sure I’m trying to make a point. Just thought it was interesting.</p>
<p>Ok, All stats have validity. What values you choose to give them are a different story.</p>
<p>UPenn also gives legacy consideration ONLY to ED applicants so that’s you can at least bet a decent fraction of those accepted ED are legacy, double legacy applicants.</p>
<p>^^<em>significance</em>. That’s what I get for posting 10 minutes after waking up :)</p>
<p>For UPenn, legacies are given some preference in admissions ONLY during ED. That is made very clear to alums. Every UPenn grad whose children go through the college process knows this. How many of those ED apps are ED kids? Athlete from my son’s school got into UPenn with SATs in the 1100s and not even a 3.0 average. I know this for a fact. He was the starting QB for UPenn’s football team for some years and from what I have been told, QBs are usually the brainy ones on that team. Got in ED. How many football players are on that team? My son was a recruited athlete, and both of his teammates went (and graduated) from UPenn and they both got iin ED with below mid range SAT scores and ummmm grades. So that ED pool is made up of a lot special entries. Your kid’s stats may even be bringing up the averages for that group. </p>
<p>My college which is a top 25 uni does the same, by the way, though they don’t give football players the pass UPEnn does, that I can guarantee. But at a recent reunion, we were told that the Legacy admit rate during ED is over 80% for that pool. During RD, legacies are given some consideration, but as a tip, not as a separate pool. Penn won’t give legacies even a tip if they do not apply ED, as Ivanka Trump found out when she was WLed RD and then denied. Had she appled ED, she was told she likely would have been accepted, and yes, this is a fact.</p>
<p>But I don’t think anyone is arguing that ED doesn’t give a student a better chance. You get that advantage for giving up the chance to compare offers and for committing to one school early. When it works, it’s beautiful. When it doesn’t, it can cost a student and family grief and problems that are not at all reflected in that blithe brainless statement that I read and hear all of the time, " you can just say no, if the fin aid is not enough". There is not enough information given and the ramifications are not gone into enough, especially families who can use the money. The opposite is pushed by GCs themeselves–“That ED offer is likely to be the best you get”, “colleges tend to give their best offers during ED”. All true statements IN GENERAL, but without the caveats I am bringing up. Heck, I’ve made the statements too. But two members on this board who have gone through this process at generous schools can attest to you, that their kids got offers differing in more than $10K from schools that are the tops in fin aid, do not tend to play games in fin aid or negotiate and supposedly use nearly the same methodology.</p>
<p>In your case, Rebel, $40K over 4 years is not an issue. You are in a position where you feel that it’s worth not getting that money for your student to go to Penn. Not all families are in that postion and they don’t know that this sort of discrepancy can exist. </p>
<p>You and others will find all kinds of articles and support for ED. Nothing new there. The GCs love ED and they get very grave faced when a family consideres backing out for financial reasons, and famililes go into contortions when they probably should have because they really can’t afford the price tag. A minority? Yes a very tiny portion of the group that is hit with a terrible problem and consequence that did not occur to them. </p>
<p>So yes, I hate ED. It puts families who don’t have as much money on the spot, and they are forced to make that decision in a vacuum. I don’t like programs that make it more difficult to those who have less, and give them extra pressure to make decisions that are not financially sound. Enough opportunities to do that. I feel that those families whose EFC is below a certain point should be allowed to enter the ED pool without baiing out on their other schools. </p>
<p>When I see an issue with something, it’s not just that it has drawbacks that make me hate it. Everything has its drawback. It’s when the issues are something that hurt most those who are the most vulnerable and least knowledgeable that make me use a word as strong as “hate”. </p>
<p>For those who are happy with their students ED outcomes including financial aid packages, it’s a wonderful thing. I am not taking anything away from you. For those who need financial aid for their kids and are contemplating ED, don’t take it off the possibilities, but just be aware that it is not so simple as “if it’s not enough aid, just say no”. Start by asking your self what “enough” is. If like most people, you don’t have a firm line as to what you absolutely won’t cross, and have to se it to know it, then you may be going over that true line of what is affordable for your family. (Yeah, I know, that ship’s done sailed for many). The college commitment is different from many others financial ones that are made in not only its magnitude but in the time it can lock you in. For the rest of your life with some loans.</p>
<p>Hi CPT, For the record, I don’t like ED either. I would much rather it didn’t exist.Since it does exist we determined we needed to use it. I would love for my kids to apply RD on their merits and have the ability to compare pkgs. to know if I got the best deal.</p>
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<p>Perhaps your beef is with the HS GC’s? While I haven’t read them all, every college that I have searched for ED clearly states on their website to NOT apply ED if you want to compare financial aid offers. How can you holding the colleges’ responsible for ignorant GCs? (They’ll be ignorant, regardless of whatever admissions policy that exists.)</p>
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<p>Actually, there are a lot more than two. So what? As stated upthread, one can only negotiate if one gets into tippy top ED school in the RD round. If ED is the tip that gets the student in, there is no guarantee that s/he woulda got in RD. Indeed, by definition, the tip was needed, so therefore RD would likely end up in a WL. In such case, there is no comparing financial aid offers.</p>
<p>Sure, ED is a deal with the unknown. For those going in eyes-wide-open…</p>
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<p>Actually, it IS just that simple. Colleges state that on their website, too.</p>
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<p>Taken together, it appears that what you are suggesting is that ED is only for the wealthy, and the poor have to be relegated to the back of the (admissions) line for RD?</p>
<p>Rebel, I am not targeting you, by the way, for this ED discussion. Clearly, it worked for you as it usually does. For the record, I would have loved to have gotten ED for any of my kids and been done with the process. We don’t qualify for financial aid, so I don’t have a dog in this fight. Not a personal vendetta at all. I just hate any process that puts those already at a disadvantage even more in a tortuous positon. I have stated what should be done to level that playing field.</p>
<p>Which comes to a whole other can of worms. People with NO financial need use that fail safe clause too. Apply ED to get the edge at a school, and if you change your mind and are accepted, just say you didn’t get the money you wanted. Can’t afford it. Never mind that you make close to a half million in income. Oh, and to draw the time line further to get your other EA and rolling accepances and buy more time, string out the aid negotiation and filling out the aid estimate form. Schools close for break so you have that time anyways, and for the ED 2s you can stretch it out to most RD decisions. You can play a lot of games with this if you want to,because the schools are not equipped to handle this aspect. ED has become a whole other thing that it was meant to be.</p>
<p>For those who are truly needy, and get a weak package, you don’t just say no, by the way, as you probalby know, Rebel. You contact the school, and explain the situation, and they have to have a financial aid officer make the time to look over the package, and the two of you sit down and go over it and maybe other documents are needed. All of this right before holiday break, I might add. And they are G-O-N-E ove that two or more weeks, many time which stretches this whole danged thing into the new year when quite frankly, admissions is no longer interested in you so much and neither is FA. They are going into the crux of their existance, the RD application crunch and they are not really focused on niggling with some ED applicant who is trying to get his aid package reassesses. It can work well and quickly, and you can be put on the back burner, ignored or forgotten and kept in limbo. Plus you are basically in the position of begging for money which make you feel really good, and your kid too. Your GC wants to know what’s going on, and they really hate it when ED goes wrong because it does affect their future transactions with the school when too many ED kids back out. THis is a carnival for those deliberately running the clock, and a nightmare for those who really need the money and who hate, hate, hate having to go through a process like this with a kid in his senior year, your beloved kid held hostage in all of this. He’s having a great holiday season with his parents trying to get more money out of financial aid or his ED is dead. </p>
<p>I personally know 2 ED situation now where they will run out the clock and get the early consideration for a school and still see if other schools will take them. It’s not about the money, but part of the strategy. With an ED leg up, a reach school could be a match, but a higher reach school still a reach, so you ED the first school and get them in the bag, hold them off until the #1 choice which would have been an ED waste since the chances would have still been small, comes up with some decision. Nice, isn’t it? What people who are savvy about this process do, in an area where selective school acceptances have become a big deal is appalling. We are talking about people who are skilled at negotiatiing huge business deals–this college thing is a piece of cake, and every little piece of it can be used to an advantage. And I am not even going into some of the more extreme abuses I have seen of this. While those with financial aid go through the torture to get that little edge and give up a possibility of more money. If I were to keep ED, I would insist on a prior year FAFSA with an EFC of X, to be permitted to compare offers. EFC has to be calcuated and received by school by a certain date or that is not an option. Yeah, there will be loopholes, but it will help a lot of those who are being held hostage due to financial aid and who the ones at the highest risk of losing out on ED. Believe me, it wasn’t that QB at Penn with the 1100 SAT that sweats ED.</p>
<p>The poor are relegated to the back of the room with the ED process which is what I hate about it, if you read my complaints.</p>
<p>Hi CPT, I don’t take my back and forth with you as an attack. You seem like a pleasant person to me.</p>
<p>No, no one is really targeting rebel. It’s just that, over time on CC, we’ve seen bits and pieces of research others have done, heard lots of anecdotes- and, have some personal reactions to “certainty.” </p>
<p>On another topic, a poster I basically trust looked into the ED issue at several Penn level schools- and came up with a small number of regular-kid admits. He or she projected by major and, long story short, while there is some bump I wouldn’t go so far as to rely on calling it anything statistical or statistically dependable- it’s qualitative. It can work or not work. </p>
<p>Adcoms are looking for more than stats and willingness to go ED- their institutional needs still trump. It’s a “calculated risk” that your interest/willingness to commit will weigh more than in RD. And, that your kid will still like this choice in May. And that this will, in fact, turn out to be the right choice, over the four years.</p>
<p>Well, there’s always the risk when you sign on the dotted line in May that it will, in fact, turn out to be the right choice over the four years. And often it doesn’t, and kids transfer. I don’t think that’s a particularly strong argument against ED. Yes, you are deciding a few months earlier, but I don’t think that makes it significantly more likely that the student will become unhappy there for whatever reason.</p>
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<p>Unless I missed examples of poor people in your arguments, it seems that the purported victims of the ED system are the members of the middle class. </p>
<p>Unless you use a very liberal classification of the poor, there is no evidence that the poor fares worse in the ED rounds. The only drawback is that the poor suffers from lacking guidance and models, and might not be aware of all the BENEFITS provided by ED.</p>
<p>Just for reference, take a look at the Questbridge program that exemplifies why early applications are both important and very sensible in BOOSTING the chances of the poor at highly selective schools.</p>
<p>And again, it is simply not feasible to extrapolate the financial aid package offered before attending to suggest a full comparison of four or five years packages. The policies might change just as the financial situation of the applicants.</p>
<p>As for finaid- as sometimes happens on CC cost discussions, we skip the part about which kids have what variety of options. </p>
<p>In order for a merit school to work, there are considerations like challenge, distance, whether it even offers the major, overall quality, etc. If you are looking at merit schools, some guarantee $x for certain stats, etc. Fine. It’s another level of data. But, many colleges leave their merit to their own discretion. In the latter case, of course, go RD, wait to see if that school or several like it do offer a sweet package. Weigh offers. Nothing says, though, that by going RD you will get a fabulous offer. Or that families that take this “savvier” route will be better positioned, in the end.</p>
<p>Schools that are “need-based aid only” are not going to offer merit aid or “lures.” (Still not understanding how Dartmouth negotiated.) For NBO schools, it is true that A and B may view your need differently. Even without the business-income issues, each will view per their own formula- some include home equity, others don’t, some have more generous policies, in the first place. Their formulas exist, their people run those- and you don’t know where you officially stand til the offer arrives.</p>
<p>It’s sometimes too easy to say, “weigh offers.” Any family could be blindsided. Any family could weigh- and still pick the school that leaves them struggling to find the money. Maybe those 6 or 10 colleges all shorted you. Maybe the family was undereducated about how finaid works or didn’t look broadly enough at schools. The “smarts” isn’t limited to the ED vs RD choice, itself- it’s how this is approached, in the first place.</p>
<p>Instead of Penn, rebel could be writing about NYU or BU.</p>
<p>I would not have considered having a child apply ED, because FA is too important.</p>
<p>However, D2 was nominated for a national scholarship by GC that is based on leadership. When you get to the point of becoming one of the 25 finalists, you must sign an ED contract to your first choice school (11 selective/highly selective schools to choose from). The award is automatic 4 years full tuition.</p>
<p>My daughter is a recipient to Northwestern U. We know tuition is covered, but we don’t have the full FA package. They waived her deposits. Is that a good sign, in terms of our FA or do all schools waive deposits for ED?</p>