<p>According to NYU data, the % of incoming freshmen into Tisch is bigger than the % Tisch is of the whole undergrad student body. By a lot. Like 7%. It seems like Tisch shrinks by 7% and Arts & Sciences gets bigger by 7%. Looking at undergrads as a whole. vs. freshman year %s.</p>
<p>Does Tisch have a particularly high dropout/transfer rate, as this data suggests?</p>
<p>I've never had a look at these figures so can't confirm but I know that in my D's year, in her studio, only one individual who started with her as a freshman has left. I don't think she knows anyone else who has left in other studios either. Are these figures you're quoting for ALL of Tisch or just the Drama dept.? My guess for possibly why this may the case vis. a vis. CAS is that there aren't a lot of kids who transfer who are Drama majors. Most kids who get into these top programs stay where they are until graduation. That isn't the case with transfers applying to CAS so that could be one possible reason for the discrepancy there. Do you have a link to these numbers?</p>
<p>Hmm.. can't really find the same numbers, so.. "Never mind!"</p>
<p>This is the link to the total enrollment for the undergrad programs:
<a href="http://www.nyu.edu/ir/factbook/2004-2005/totalugrad.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.nyu.edu/ir/factbook/2004-2005/totalugrad.php</a>
The %s they show include some different schools/programs thrown in that aren't in their freshmen data; I recomputed the %s below in order to fairly compare to the given freshmen % stats</p>
<p>41.3% Arts& Sciences 6,551
16.6% Steinhardt (ED) 2,633
14.3% Stern 2,265
1.7% Continuing Ed 264
0.6% Social Work 101
18.6% Tisch 2,947<br>
7.0% Gallatin (non-trad) 1,116</p>
<p>100.0% total 15,877 </p>
<p>The link to freshmen enrollment is here:</p>
<p>It appears that the same phenomenon is present, but it's only 2-3% swing in these numbers. Maybe I looked at a different year.</p>
<p>another concern:</p>
<p>What do y'all suppose the ratio is of straight girls to straight boys who don't prefer "getting a job right away to make lots of money" over intellectual growth?</p>
<p>(I.e. straight girls vs. (total boys - gay boys - 75% of Stern boys)?</p>
<p>I call this her "prospective date" ratio. </p>
<p>I'm guessing only 1 out of every 6 or 7 NYU students is a "prospective date". I think Barnard, itself a single sex school, has a better "prospective date" ratio than NYU once Columbia thrown in.</p>
<p>"I call this her "prospective date" ratio. </p>
<p>I'm guessing only 1 out of every 6 or 7 NYU students is a "prospective date". I think Barnard, itself a single sex school, has a better "prospective date" ratio than NYU once Columbia thrown in."</p>
<p>Hilarious! I love it. :)</p>
<p>monydad, you doth analyze too much, methinks.</p>
<p>I'll concede that for post #1; though, to give myself a break, I didn't set out looking for trends or anything, I just was looking to see how big Tisch was, and while doing so I happened to notice different %s posted on different pages. The difference seemed material to me at the time, which is why I took notice; now it doesn't.</p>
<p>ON the other hand, I think post #4 is actually relevant. A happy personal life is very important to overall well-being IMO. so methinks different than youthinks on that point. Not to be personal or anything.</p>
<p>But maybe you'll like this concern better; there is no analysis involved.</p>
<p>There is virtually no campus to speak of; dorms are scattered about lower Manhattan. In aggregate NYU only has housing at all for about half of its undergrad students. It retains some vestigial character of its "commuter school" ancestry. There is less common experience to bind students together, since they go flittering off into NYC, whereas at other schools they hang on campus much more.</p>
<p>Perhaps this is why there are so few "alumni update" posts in the alumni magazine, when the size of the alumni body is considered. People simply don't feel connected to the place. They feel more like they are going to school in New York than they are going to school at NYU.</p>
<p>Monydad,
I can't recall what field your D is looking into. I think it is theater but am not quite sure. I have a D who goes to NYU/Tisch for musical theater. Actually, I have two D's in college. I don't recall looking at ANY of the data that you are looking into though commend you for the very thorough search of each school on your child's list. My kids looked at their personal list of college criteria...the usual things...size, location, curriculum in their area of interest, and in the case of my BFA kid, specifics about the program, etc. My kids picked schools that met their criteria, visited, decided if they liked them, applied, and chose which school they liked best out of all their acceptances. I don't recall delving into these areas that you speak about. Their happiness quotient definitely doesn't seem to hinge on the data you presented. My kids absolutely love their programs, colleges, and the experiences they are having. They are learning a lot, have met great kids, enjoy their professors, are engaged in meaningful activities outside the classroom and are getting an excellent education and preparation for their areas of interest as well. I'm not sure there is much more to it. </p>
<p>If I understand the analysis you are getting out in the first example, you are talking of the enrollment at Tisch being lower for upperclassmen than for freshmen? I hope I understand the question correctly. If so, and I don't have any data or first hand information, but my feeling is that for those who are pursuing BFA in theater programs, there are usually a small number who opt to switch out of these programs, often after freshmen year. I have seen this phenomenon at many BFA in MT schools/programs...I have heard of students who have done this at Tisch, CCM, CMU, BOCO, Emerson, Syracuse, to name a few. A BFA program is very intense and not for all people. Some who enter this kind of program have a strong interest in the field but haven't really ever engagd in such an intensive immersion and the lifestyle that goes with it. There are a few kids who realize that this is not the kind of college program they want to do. It is very specialized for one thing. The hours are very long. The work can be intense. Until some kids actually DO a program like this, they don't come to this realization. So, I imagine a few switch into liberal arts programs. There are some who decide to just join the audition circuit, or who have even been cast in professional theater and leave. There are various reasons but I think a small minority do make a change. Also, at all colleges, even in liberal arts, there are kids who make a change after freshman year. My D has a friend who is at an Ivy who is transfering to Tisch Drama in the fall who just wasn't happy at her school and the location and various other things. It is not an unusual thing for some freshman. For a BFA student, there is a commitment, however, to a specialized major before the student even enters college. A common major for liberal arts college freshmen is "undecided". Many 18 year olds are not ready to commit to one field until they have explored further. So, it doesn't strike me as odd that for those who commit to Drama or MT and to intensive training programs, that SOME might change their mind once they get deeply immersed. Some may not feel that it is for them. Some may not manage the VERY long hours that such a program entails. So, since some freshmen in ANY college or any major (including "undecided majors") may change their minds, and then you have BFA majors who are in commited majors from the get go that are intensive programs, it is not so mind boggling to think that there will be handful who switch out of these degree programs. </p>
<p>As far as the potential dates (young men)....NYU is a HUGE university. If your D can't find boys to date there, I don't know where she would. While within the theater field, there is a higher proportion of gay men than in the general population, there are also straight men. Tisch drama students take classes with Tischies but they also take liberal arts classes with students from all areas of NYU. They live in dorms with all kinds of students. They live in a major city with all kinds of guys. Frankly, I think there are more potential dates at NYU than at an all girls' college....I have a D who applied and got into Smith and while she loved the school for many reasons, decided in the end to not attend as she truly prefered coed as to be around boys in classes, ECs, and socially more than would be at a women's college. </p>
<p>Also if you have a D who is considering a BFA in theater, the issue of gay males in theater classes is going to be the same at Tisch as at any other BFA in theater program she attends, and for that matter, in her career in the performing arts. So, it isn't a Tisch issue but if this IS an issue for your D (and not you), then it comes down to if she wants to do a BFA or BA program as the types of kids that each program attracts, differs in various ways (and not just in sexual orientation). If your D is considering Barnard, a fine college, that implies to me a big difference with Tisch because then it comes down to WHICH type of degree program she wants....a BA or a BFA. That would be a much bigger issue than the boy issue. But as far as young men, there are thousands of straight men at NYU, let alone in NYC. There are many straight guys right in Tisch, including in the drama studios. Besides potential straight male dates, I know my D has numerous close guy friends who are gay and so college is about more than guy dates but also guy friends. In any case, she knows and likes and is friends with males of both persuasions. The guy factor was a non issue when she applied to and chose to attend NYU. For my kids, the guy issue ONLY came up in reference to coed schools vs. all women's colleges. </p>
<p>My daughters picked their colleges for reasons that had nothing to do with any of the "concerns" you brought up. Then again, each person's college criteria differs from the next person. One of my kids wanted her college to have a ski team. Who am I to knock the college criteria someone else uses? It is quite individual as demonstrated here. However, I would urge any parent to let the high schooler pick her own college criteria and then select colleges that she wants to go to. I see the parent as a resource, facilitator, and support person....but whichever schools my kids wanted, was OK by me as long as they had reasons why they were appealing and why they were a good fit. I didn't analyze any data regarding my kids' schools. It seems that some parents know SO much details about each college, it is mind boggling. I have read detailed analyses of very specific data on each college in some threads on the Parents Forum, stuff I never even thought about. My kids looked for colleges and we read about them, visited them, and met with faculty and current students. We didn't do that much more than that. It seemed to be enough. The kids made all their own choices. Now that they are attending one of their first choice schools and are as happy with their choices as they were when the sent in their intent to enroll, I'm not sure what more data is needed. I suppose if a STUDENT wishes to examine that data, that's one thing. But I think it boils down to the student's personal list of college criteria, not parent analysis of detailed data, when selecting colleges to which they will apply.</p>
<p>My final concern, for the day, is the size. The place is just too huge. One can feel that they are a faceless number; there for the purpose of paying tuition and fees. The beaurocracy can be whithering. And the "impersonality".</p>
<p>This is a quite dated impression, but it was valid, to me, at a long ago time. In contrast to my other alma mater, also large, where I did not feel this way so much.</p>
<p>MonyDad, I did not see your most recent post when I just posted above. I just returned from NYU last night. You are right, there is no confined or separate college campus. The NYU buildings are integrated into the city, though many are concentrated in a certain area around Washington Square Park. Some dorms are further away. The Tisch drama studios are not ON campus. It is not like going to a college campus that in "enclosed". This is one of the college criteria that a prospective STUDENT must decide....location, setting, etc. i do believe this decision should be up to the student. </p>
<p>When I went to college, I wanted a campus but not a totally secluded one...but one where you could walk to other things, and also have access to places off campus easily, including a city, if possible. I know that my kids cared about that. One of my kids has the set up that is very similar to what I had and wanted. I went to Tufts and she goes to Brown and both have campus greens, etc. but the campus is not secluded and one can walk a block and be off campus and have access to many other things in the neighborhood. Both have ready access to the city. My other kid, the one who goes to NYU, didn't care about that. She did not want a secluded campus and wanted to be able to walk to places and also have access to more than just what a college offers. One thing she did not find appealing about Ithaca, for instance, was that you could not walk to anything off campus. The town was nearby (via car) but wasn't too big. My kids wanted a contrast to where they grew up (rural area in the mountains). But this is a very individual preference. </p>
<p>While I may not have chosen to go to college in Manhattan and my older D would not either, my younger D loved that idea and now that she has finished her first year, I can't begin to tell you how much she loves it. She has the sense of community/family at her MT studio, CAP21, a small niche in a big place. She then also has a sense of belonging to her school, Tisch. She knows many in Tisch beyond her own studio. And then there is NYU as a whole and she really likes knowing students outside of Tisch. She is involved in NYU activities. But it is not like campus life is her whole life. She also does things in NYC...she has a part time job, she sees COUNTLESS theater shows (Broadway, etc) which she feels is part of her education, and just enjoys the life of the city. It is not for everyone. I understand that it doesn't appeal to you and it might not to me, but the only important thing is that the college location/setting meets the STUDENT's criteria. My D wanted this and couldn't be happier now that she is there. My country bumpkin knows her way around NYC by foot and by subway. She has had some incredible experiences this year. She has met all sorts of people at NYU, but also in NYC and in the theater world (like heaven for a kid who loves theater). She has been to all the audition studios in NYC like she will be doing when she graduates, and just really likes both the college life and the fun that she has with her college friends off campus as well. </p>
<p>But that lifestyle is NOT for all kids, for sure. For those who want this, it is great. Some prefer or need a small college environment (I preferred a school with no more than 6000 students, same with my other D) and some prefer an isolated campus or one that is near a city but not in one, etc. Some want a small liberal arts college and some want a major university. Some want a city life, some want country. Some want a contrast to the environment in which they grew up and some want something similar to where they grew up or to not be far from home. That's why there are all sorts of college options. I would urge any parent to not let THEIR preferences (other than cost) interfere with their child's choice. I wouldn't opt to go to college in a city, but I can SURELY see why my D wanted it and why she likes it. Different strokes, as they say.</p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>I'm not telling her what to do, I'm just giving her my opinion. </p>
<p>As well as some, hopefully valid, insights that she may not fully appreciate through her own limited investigation. She can decide their relevance herself. Once she has been informed.</p>
<p>She can accept it or not, but she will get it.</p>
<p>She is considering several different types of programs and schools.</p>
<p>I think I am entitled to give her my opinion. If you don't think you are entitled to give your opinion to your own children, or give them any information that they don't come up with themselves, that's your right. But obviously I feel differently.</p>
<p>To help see if they ARE, in fact, valid- well thats why I'm posting.</p>
<p>Monydad, we cross posted once again. Size is a factor for all college students. Your D must decide if she wants a small school or a large one. When I went to college, I wanted a medium size college. </p>
<p>I can give you feedback about my D who goes to NYU, though. She has a very small program in a big university. At CAP21, she knows mostly all the kids, certainly all in her year, but many of the older ones as well. She knows the faculty. They coordinators of the program know the name of each student. Her advisor IN the program is the director of the studio. She also has a Tisch academic advisor for four years. Then she has her smallish sized college - Tisch - within a univeristy. She knows various people in this school as they take classes, do shows, crew, etc. in that "niche". She surely doesn't know everyone in the larger university, though has the resources and experiences. My D happens to also be a Tisch Scholar and has that little "niche" of students, as well as coordinators and deans. For those who engage in extracurricular activities, they belong to those "communities". My D is in a coed a capella group whom she spends a couple nights per week and has traveled and performed with them. She has a very strong sense of belonging to this additional niche. So even in a large university, there are schools and programs within it, activities, dorm life, social groups, research or work with professors, and for Tischies, also production work with faculty and students. There is a sense of belonging to various niches in the greater whole. My D doesn't feel like a number. She will be getting narrative evaluations from every studio teacher. I think there are numerous adults at Tisch who my D has come to know very well already. It hasn't been an issue for her. She is not just at NYU but in a program within a school within NYU.</p>
<p>We cross posted once more. I surely am not saying not to give your opinion or information you have learned to your child! Far from it! I see parents as a resource and facilitator in this process to be sure! Parents may have time to gather information and share it with their kids. They can probe and ask their kids what their college criteria are and then discuss them. They can ask their kids why certain schools appeal to them. They can even suggest schools! Parents play an important role in this process. I was only saying that in the end, once you share what information you have learned or help them to weigh the pros/cons or to articulate preferences and comparisons, that in the end, it is about THEIR preferences. I am not really talking of you individually but am generalizing. I think it doesn't matter if a parent prefers a small school or a certain kind of degree if their kid is interested in something else. I think the kid needs to own each aspect of the decision. But a parent can guide and share and help them to figure out what they want, how to find it, etc. But I am not into parents persuading or telling which schools THEY want or which criteria THEY want. But also, I realize each family handles it differently and my way is not the BEST way. We each take on different roles in this process. While I was the support person, that doesn't mean that I never discussed anything about the colleges but it was more in terms of helping them to process what they wanted....plus just being a secretary and lining up visits and other mundane tasks! :D</p>
<p>I did share any information I learned. I did discuss their thoughts with them a lot. I didn't really give my opinion about where to go to college. I helped them examine or look at whichever aspects mattered to them in selecting colleges. I didn't care which school they picked and never stated a preference. But I was involved a lot in talking with them and helping them.</p>
<p>monydad, it's clear that your concerns about the potential social life of your D at NYU are real and come from your honest regard and caring for her. But I would respond with a few thoughts that may or may not quell your worries.
One is that I know plenty of girls who attend all-girls' prep schools and have NO problems cultivating an active social life with boys from other schools, their communities, etc. That doesn't seem to be a problem. And two, even if it's true that the percentage of gay males at Tisch is higher than, say, at a non-arts department at any college (and I have NO idea if that is, indeed, the case, though it may well be), aren't there plenty of other date-able males in other departments in the university?
If you don't mind my asking, is your D worried about this? If not, maybe you shouldn't be, either. My guess is she will meet plenty of wonderful men at NYU and find her way nicely.</p>
<p>Sometimes I envy people whose kids will do what they are told to do.</p>
<p>I don't have kids like that.</p>
<p>monydad, if you know any kids of college age who do what they are told to do, I would love to meet em! :) Seriously, you are obviously a really caring father who plays an active role in his daughter's life, and that is fantastic. My guess is that your D will listen to your concerns and what information you have been able to gather and weigh those factors into making her decision. In the end, though, it will probably be her decision to make, unless you do as some parents I know have done, and threaten not to pay tuition, room and board, etc. unless the child walks the path you have laid out.
If your D does decide to attend Tisch and ends up finding herself feeling like a faceless number and without any eligible and interesting men to date, well, then she will recognize her mistake and ask to transfer. It wouldn't be the optimal thing to have happen, but from what I can gather, it sure wouldn't be unusual. I get the impression that no matter how thoroughly a student researches a school, there is really no way to be absolutely certain she will be happy there and thrive there and it will be a good fit until she lives there and experiences it all. Of course, the opposite outcome might also happen, and she will absolutely love Tisch and NYU and NY and be loathe to come home on vacations! :) As Susan said, different strokes for different folks, in college choice as well as the rest of life.</p>
<p>re post #14:</p>
<p>1) NYU is nominally only 40% male to start with. There are other schools with strong theater or dance offerings that may have a materially higher "potential date ratio". For example I believe Carnegie Mellon is about 80% male. I think a healthy social and dating life is one legitimate consideration, out of many, in selecting a school. Not the most important thing, but not completely insignificant either.</p>
<p>2) I think many people shy away from same sex schools specifically for this reason. Some do not. But at least there the situation is evident for them to decide about it. We are discussing now what the situation is like specifically at NYU, so that this situation can also be evaluated.</p>
<p>3) Yes my daughter has expressed concern about this generally. She is in theater and dance programs a lot of the time, and would appreciate some social diversity. If ya know what I mean. She has expressed reservations about same sex schools over this issue. She has not investigated this with respect to NYU. But she will get my report.</p>
<p>Monydad, a 40/60 ration of males/females would be significant in a small school. As NYU is so large, that still means a thousands of men enrolled in the university. In fact, until I read the ratio you just gave, I wasn't even aware that there were more girls than guys at NYU! :D</p>
<p>While there may be more guys than girls at CMU, I can tell you that socially, the Drama students at CMU have their own niche and tend to live off campus together. That's what the students told us. Their school is very much a conservatory and the students take very little liberal arts or courses outside their small drama department. By contrast, the Tisch students tend to live more amongst all students at NYU, but also take classes with NON Tisch students. My D likes that she gets to meet those out of her small theater community in the school. </p>
<p>What your D needs to do is not analyze so much on paper some of these things you just mentioned but more talk with current students IN these programs and have her ask them questions that concern her. </p>
<p>As well, if these issues concern YOU, I understand it but it only really matters if these are college criteria that are important to your D. You can research the aspects that she says she cares about, but the criteria for selection ideally would be her preferences. Visiting, as well as talking with those with first hand experiences, is invaluable because some of these issues can be assumptions that may or may not ring true. </p>
<p>I also think you may have misundersstood any comments I made about your own research. I think it is great that you research or do some leg work to find out about the schools on your D's list and then let her know what you found out. I was only saying that the criteria of what matters, is really only important in as far as what she wants in a college. Let's say she says she wants classes in ballet all four years and that different levels be available. A parent can research to find out that information. The criteria is simply one that the student cares about, not the parent. Selecting a school boils down to their own criteria but a parent can do research and talk to their kids about what issues the student cares about. I just would be uncomfortable persuading my child to select certain schools based on my opinions and criteria for selection. But a parent can help the student as she grapples with this complex process. </p>
<p>If your D is looking for social diversity, then a BFA program in a larger school, where the student is living with and taking classes with students outside of theater, might be a good fit....like NYU, UMich, Syracuse, Penn State and many others. This might be a contrast to schools like BOCO. If your D wants to have a breadth in her studies and many options, then a BA school is likely a better fit. </p>
<p>It really boils down to fit. If she can list her personal college criteria and finds schools that approximate that list, that's ideal. But at the same time, it would be good to not erase some schools off the bat until you visit or talk with current students and faculty to raise the issues that are important to your D. Sometimes, assumptions can be made that really do not fit what it would really be like to attend X college. An open mind and exploring via a visit, really can give a student the "gut" feeling of how well the college fits what she was looking for. Then, of course, she has to get in. :D</p>
<p>"...not analyze so much on paper some of these things you just mentioned but more talk with current students "</p>
<p>Any current students here? Please weigh in. That's what I was hoping for, actually. </p>
<p>But yeah, she will/needs to do more than just listen to my rantings.</p>
<p>And she will not robotically substitute my own selected observations in place of her own criteria during this process. Hopefully I'll give her some additional useful insights though.</p>
<p>" .the criteria of what matters, is really only important in as far as what she wants in a college. "</p>
<p>Right. But she may not realize what she wants, or what may be material factors, unless someone points them out. Not everything is obvious. Once they are brought to her attention, she can decide if they are material to her when she formulates her criteria.</p>
<p>-- good point about the school size; hadn't though of that. --</p>
<p>monydad, you are obviously very concerned that your D have lots of information about potential schools, which is good. Being informed in this process is, in some respects, half the battle. However, I think that you are making the social concerns you have, more of an issue than you need to for NYU. It is a huge school, thousands upon thousands of undergrads. Yes, there are many gay boys but trust me, if your D is like any other drama girl I know (and I know hundreds), some of her closest friends will be gay boys. In fact, they probably already are. Having said that, there are literally thousands of straight boys (potential dates) at NYU. Thousands. As Susan said, if your D can't find a boy to date at NYU, then it's likely she will not be able to find one ANYwhere! ;)</p>
<p>While NYU is a large university, the drama department is small, and each studio is smaller, and each class is smaller still, usually about 15. There is a wonderful comeraderie and friendship which develops with these kids. They're like a family and they spend a lot of time together. However, all Tischies take other NYU classes, many double major, and thus they also have friends in every other NYU college. Most, unless they've made a specific roommate request, will be placed in their housing assignments with students who are not in Tisch. Thus, they meet lots and lots of kids who are not drama kids.</p>
<p>The size of the university has never for one instant made my D, who just finished her junior year, feel like a faceless number. Not once. I'm also not sure why you're concerned about the housing issue. Housing is guaranteed for all four years and most kids stay in NYU housing for all four years. Yes, some choose to get their own apartments, usually because they are planning on staying summers in the city, but most do not. </p>
<p>It's true that NYU has a large 'campus' with buildings in various parts of lower Manhattan, the studios, in particular. But all are within walking distance of WSP (some a longer walk than others), which most kids think of as 'campus', and around which most NYU buildings are located. Going to college in Manhattan is NOT for everyone. It takes a mature, independent, and usually outgoing kid to make it work in order to be happy and to do well. It is not the typical college experience with football games and frats but it also has its own distinct advantages, most especially for the kids in Tisch because the opportunities they have, the theatre they can see and participate in, the contacts they'll make, will not be the same anywhere else. </p>
<p>I wish you luck getting through this process. Is your D a senior next year? I would recommend that she visit NYU if she's interested in Tisch, speak to current students, arrange to visit some classes (this can pretty easily be done, especially through contacts here on CC, or if she has friends already there), stay overnight in a dorm, ideally for longer than just one day, if she truly wants to get the total experience of school in the city. Have fun!</p>