<p>I would hope that the SATII's aren't at a "third grade" level, either, particularly since, one SAT II test counts as much as the SAT-I (verbal + math combined) by the UC system for admission purposes; (UC doubles the point score of SATII's for matriculatig classes prior to '06).</p>
<p>My point in bringing up that the increase in hispanic AP numbers is mostly due to taking AP Spanish was in no way meant to take away from the achievement, but to point out that schools are still doing a lousy job at encouraging high potential minorities to engage in the AP classes.</p>
<p>As to public v. private, given that most of the lower achieving kids do not take AP classes, especially non whites and asians, I do think the public schools, if doing a good job, might achieve somwhat closer results. Not at all equal, but 18% v. 85%? We're doing something very wrong.</p>
<p>When you have a public school where the administration has the authority to remove students (DOE schools) students tend to do better, also at public schools, many schools have a policy which allows anyone who wants to take an AP class to take it.</p>
<p>There is no comparison of these classes between most private and public schools. The size of the classes, the teachers work load, just can not be compared.</p>
<p>One of the high school AP teachers interviewed in an article in our local paper today said that students needed to arrive in 9th grade with a mastery of first-year algebra if they had any hope of taking AP math (and some science) courses in HS, and pointed out that CA (and elsewhere I'm sure!) needs to do a better job of moving such courses down into the middle schools if the Hispanic population is to be able to take advantage of such opportunities.</p>
<p>mootmom: </p>
<p>actually, needing Alg mastery by 8th grade is true for any student considering AP math (which is typically Calc); otherwise, it will be extremely difficult to get to in four years. The only other AP 'math' class would be Stats (which typically requires Alg II as a prereq), but that is considered AP lite by many. </p>
<p>But, to teach Alg by 8th grade, the math curriculum needs to trickle down to elementary school. And, there are many elementary educators who just don't believe that kids are ready for the advanced concepts at that age. I know GATE teachers who don't believe that the their 4th grade GATE kids are ready for the state's 5th grade curriculum.....</p>
<p>Our hs's curriculum is arranged so that Alg 1honors teaches algebra 1 plus a quarter of algebra 2; geometry honors in 10th grade teaches a quarter of algebra 2 as well; so the students can cover everything needed to get to AB Calculus by Grade 12. They can also do a summer independent study to advance into the higher BC Calculus lane for senior year. </p>
<p>I imagine Kirmum that your comments are not critical of one state's performance per se as they are of the entire country? Since most states have even fewer taking AP level courses. A fair criticism, to be sure. Again, my point was simply that for a state with such a terrible record of per capita student spending (isn't California something like 47th?) and the immense inequities among districts, that the fact that California has improved and holds its own nationally is worth noticing.</p>
<p>California actually is doing pretty good if you are just looking at teacher salary.
[quote]
"To date, it would appear that more of education's scarce resources are being spent on what children need least-growing bureaucracy, paperwork and standardized testing," Weaver said.</p>
<p>Among the facts in the update of "Rankings and Estimates" (through August 2004):</p>
<pre><code>* The average salary of a U.S. public school teacher for 2002-03 was $45,810, compared with a projected average of $46,726 for 2003-04.
* In 2002-03, the highest-ranking states in teacher pay were California, Connecticut, and New Jersey; for 2003-04, California, Connecticut and the District of Columbia were estimated to be the highest-ranking states in teacher pay.
* In 2002-03, the lowest-ranking states in teacher pay were South Dakota, North Dakota and Mississippi; for 2003-04, South Dakota, Oklahoma and Alabama were estimated to be the lowest-ranking states in teacher pay.
* Public school enrollment for 2002-03 was 47.7 million students, compared with a projected 48.1 million for 2003-04.
* The biggest leaps in student enrollment were estimated for Nevada, South Carolina and Arizona.The largest decreases in student enrollment were estimated for the District of Columbia, North Dakota, Wyoming and Vermont.
[/quote]
</code></pre>
<p>EK, I think you'd have to look at relative costs of living to know how things compare between our state and others.</p>
<p>Marite--a belated thanks for posting the information about the Stanford and Summers articles--I just printed them both out to read. I note that the NY Times also covered the AP story, from the angle of New York being tops in the ranks: I am glad we can be mentioned in the same breath with them :). </p>
<p>Patient, given a case I recently concluded, I am especially aware of the problems in CA. The reason we do as well as we do in AP testing but not in overall testing is simply because CA has a large number of high achieving children of highly educated parents in pockets. At the vast majority of CA public schools, it is these children who take the AP classes. In States with beter education funding, APs have reached the less advantaged and minorities to a much larger extent.</p>
<p>recent Rand Corp study on Cal schools... with a different take on teacher salaries. According to Rand, when adjusted for inflation, teachers' pay in Cal ranks last among the top 5 states, and 32 nationwide....</p>
<p>I teach Algebra to 8th graders and a few 7th graders. Many students are either not prepared for this level math or have not matured enough to comprehend the less concrete operations of Algebra. Sometimes we push our kids too hard, too soon or too late. I like Patient's school's approach which allows a student to get a little older before they have to handle the quadratic equation.</p>
<p>I, too, like Patient's school's approach, particularly for high achieving kids. The first semester of AlgII, is nothing more than a review of Alg I; a large waste of resources, IMO.</p>
<p>Kirmum: some districts (such as in Maryland) are so committed to AP, that they will pay the AP test fee, thus removing a financial barrier to disadvantaged kids.</p>
<p>Actually it sound's like Patient's school has one of the more stepped up math programs in our fair State. These programs are usually found only at the better schools, in affluent areas where there is a highly educated community. Do I have your school pegged Patient?</p>
<p>dunno about Patients' school, but the only other school that I've heard of such a math program is at New Trier, considered by many to be one of the top HS in Illinois (it's in a nice suburb of ChiTown).</p>
<p>My son is taking a combined accelerated geometry and precalculus course this year, at seventh-grade age. This puts him only slightly ahead of the expectations for below-average kids in the country his cousins live in, but somehow seems advanced to Americans. Sure enough, a huge percentage of his classmates in this course are children of first-generation immigrants from various countries around the world where math is taught better at all levels.</p>
<p>I worry about all state employees in CA, if Gov's proposals go thru. That is, to do away with pensions and health care for first year. Those are 2 positives for teachers, and many could chose to work in other states.</p>
<p>Sorry, was out walking the dog :). Yes, you are right about our school being a high-achieving school in a highly educated community. </p>
<p>The data given above about teachers' salaries on a relative scale is what I understood, as well. I believe that we are close to the bottom of the totem pole on per capita spending for education, and since teachers' salaries are a major component of total spending on schools, I assumed that the salaries were low too. Of course, the more senior teachers do, in fact, earn a very good income, but attracting talented younger teachers becomes an increasingly difficult struggle. I sometimes get moved to tears when I see some of our young teaching stars, and how amazing they are with our kids on all levels--doing way more than just teaching them the course material-- inspiring them, speaking their language, being role models and confidantes--and know how they must struggle economically to live in our area to teach where they do.</p>
<p>With respect to the math curriculum, by the way, the algebra honors lane mentioned above is the second highest lane. The students who have taken algebra in 8th grade and received a high grade and their teacher's recommendation go into Geo/Alg 2 in 9th grade, then Trig/analyt in 10th, analysis in 11th, and BC Calculus in 12th. That was the lane my son was in; my daughters could have chosen either lane but since they were re-entering the school system from private middle school, and facing social adjustments etc., decided to stay in Algebra honors, which is essentially repetitious for them. Fortunately they have two very good teachers and will probably bridge into the higher lane during a summer, if they continue to enjoy math. One is starting the EPGY geometry course this spring as well. Further, some kids choose to accelerate and take BC Calculus as 11th graders and then take college math at one of the local campuses in 12th grade. The math department has been pretty flexible about allowing these things to occur. </p>
<p>By the way, the AP report I have found interesting although I have only looked at some of the charts.</p>
<p>My S's public elementary school pioneered algebra in 8th grade.
Now all k-8 schools in our district have algebra in 8th grade, though with mixed results (many students are placed in Algebra 1 in high school). The key is good preparation in earlier grades. The school pioneered Bob Moses Algebra Project, introduced in 6th grade to prepare kids for 8th grade algebra. The trickle-down effect of this approach means that kids come into 6th grade having already absorbed some key ideas behind the Algebra Project, to the point where there was a discussion about introducing it in earlier grades.</p>
<p>Our district has "new, new math".
It spirals supposedly reinforcing concepts that wentbefore but actually skipping basics like long division
my older daughter had algebraic concepts in elementary and algebra in 8th but her sister needs Kumon tutoring to get what she should be taught in school</p>
<p>Our district offers Algebra 1 to selected eigth graders. Most do not have Algebra until ninth grade. That is why they have such a difficult time with IPC (our ninth grade required Science)--the students without the Algebra can't balance chemical equations. Many IPC teachers end up teaching basic Algebra. Our block system exacerbates this problem because you have kids that end up in IPC first semester and Algebra I second semester. And students on that curriculum sequence never make it to the AP level math and sciences.</p>
<p>Our new district is moving IPC down to eighth grade for those students taking Algebra, which will enable more students to go beyond Bio/Chem/Physics. </p>
<p>Kids that transfer in from elsewhere are typically one year ahead in math.</p>