<p>When D1 went to CA middle school, only the top kids in 8th grade were in Algebra 1. I was talking to her 9th grade geometry teacher one day and she told me that D1 was doing well, but that she would occasionally be surprised at the gaps in her math knowledge. That came from the 8th grade Algebra 1 class only getting through half of the book!</p>
<p>By the time D2 is in the 8th grade at the same middle school, Algebra 1 (the first half of the book) is taught to the high end seventh graders with the second half of the book covered in 8th grade. All 8th graders are required to take Algebra 1. For some, it's a stretch and those kids often retake it in high school. But then it is the second time through for them, so they have an easier time of it. </p>
<p>I whole-heartedly applaud school districts amping up math instruction. It's about time.</p>
<p>ellemenope: your holes remind me of the huge one they discovered in our curriculum. The kids that had Algebra I in 8th grade did not have the unit on probablity and stats that the kids in grade 8 math received. When those kids all failed the portion of the state testing (which is usually a breeze for advanced students) they went back and figured out the problem. They just couldn't understand why kids sitting in Pre Calc were failing some of the TAKs objectives.</p>
<p>The issue of holes crops up every time acceleration is discussed. In many cases, it is just that some particular unit has not been covered (as in the case of probability and statistics), not that the math understanding is defective. If it weren't for mandatory testing, this would not be an issue. In other cases, there are genuine gaps. As my S skipped all high school math, he is slowly uncovering some holes in his knowledge. They are not hard to fill; but until he comes upon them, he does not know they are there. Still, it hardly warrants a slow, incremental approach.</p>
<p>Oh I totally agree marite. In fact they were trying to discontinue the Algebra in the 8th grade because of the bad TAKs scores. I'm glad it was discovered that it was a missing unit and not a total curriculum melt down, or our kids would be held back again. I've found the same thing, there are kids that just need that unit introduced and they are fine to move on, without going over and over and over it for six weeks.</p>
<p>California drops the success level of 8th graders who do not take the standardized Algebra exam. If an 8th grader is proficient on the general math test they are listed as basic because they didn't take the Algebra exam. The expectation is that they will take Algebra in 8th grade. Of course if they are two or three grade levels behind coming out of 6th grade this becomes a challenge to remediate and move them through Pre-Algebra (which is about 70% of the high school exit exam) in time to get Algebra.</p>
<p>Regarding Public schools in low rent neighborhoods, our students are more mobile than in more middle class communities. Students often switch households and schools during the middle of the school year, sometimes several times. Some schools end up with less than half of the class attending for a full year.</p>
<p>My sister's family lives in CT, and her kids' school does not do Algebra I, Geo, Alg. II, but Integrated Math I, II, III, then precalculus in 11th grade, and calculus in grade 12. At first I was skeptical, but now I am a believer. Every year of I, II, and II, the kids do algebra, geometry, statistics, logic, discrete math, probability, trig, and functions, each year spiraling back around and building on the previous year. I wondered what colleges would think, being used to the standard Alg.I -Geo - Alg II routine, but they apparently love it and have told the school repeatedly. My kids also didn't "forget" stuff as easily as mine, since it was a continuous process to cover everything.... </p>
<p>My nieces and nephew are SO much better in math than anyone I know in terms of being so amazingly flexible, so ... well, literate (nummerate?)... in math, so sophisticated in their thinking about math. I wish I had had it in my school. I struggled through math because I just could never catch on as to how it all fit together, and even though I got up to calculus, these kids know far more - and know how to use it, and how to solve problems many different ways - than I ever did. It's just great, and I am on a committee working to bring Integrated Math to our district.</p>
<p>Note: don't mistake this program for some of the nutty experiments of the past with vaguely similar names. This is strictly SOLID math, and the kids do fantastically well in national contests, the top kids go on to Ivies, Stanford, MIT, etc.</p>
<p>Since my S did not follow the traditional math curriculum, I'm only going by hearsay. I know not everyone likes Connected Math but IMP is supposed to follow logically from Connected Math. When my older S was in hs, only IMP III was offered, so he was dissuaded against taking IMP in case he wanted to take AP-Calc. In the event, he did not take AP-Calc either; I think he would have enjoyed IMP.
Our hs now offers both the regular sequence (algebraI & II/geometry/precalc) and Integrated Math, I, II, III, IV. Students who would be placed in Honors Algebra but choose IMP are placed into IMP II and take AP-Calc as seniors. IMP is less popular than the traditional math sequence (partly because parents are more familiar with the latter). I have only one anecdotal evidence, of a student who took IMP and then went to MIT (he is now a senior).</p>
<p>We have intergrated math here as well but with different results
a local parent's take.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Integrated subjects leaves students ill-prepared for U
With all the recent discussions regarding public schools, there is one perspective that has been largely absent: the experiences of the university community. After teaching an introductory atmospheric sciences class for more than 20 years, my sad observation, and one seconded by my colleagues, is that competency in math and science has declined from roughly the late 1970s until now.</p>
<p>It's interesting that the university gave virtually the same mathematics placement test to all freshman from the mid-1980s until 2000; students scores declined during this period, objectively confirming our subjective impressions. Furthermore, increasing numbers of students have been forced to take remedial math courses prior to starting college.</p>
<p>Why have math scores declined? One reason is transition to integrated math in middle and high schools during the '80s. Instead of teaching algebra, geometry and trigonometry as coherent subjects, with sufficient time to gain mastery, integrated math combines them in a frenetic mix that jumps between these subjects, using lots of pictures and real-life examples. Although more money and smaller class sizes will help student achievement, there are other factors, such as curriculum, that require more attention.</p>
<p>Cliff Mass
Professor Department of Atmospheric Sciences, University of Washington
[/quote]
</p>
<p>we do have students go on to competitive schools as well, but I see that in spite of intergrated math, not becuase of it.</p>
<p>Emeraldkity4 -while I do not doubt that professor's take, clearly the program is different in different states. His description sounds really bizarre - there is no "frenetic mix," not based on "pictures" or "jumping around." It's just the same solid math. I am QUITE sure that example was specifically what I was referring to in my note -something with a similar name. OR he's a curmudgeon with an axe to grind. So few schools use the system that if math has declined, it has declined across the board and not because of integrated math. As I said, my sister's school district is full of stellar achievers in math, and this system has been in place in the district for many years.</p>
<p>Or maybe this school has been especially fortunate in its math teachers. I find it superior in every way to the way I learned, and my kids use their cousins' books to get ahead (being very competitive!).</p>
<p>no he is a curmudgeon but his take is accurate.
The curriculum that the seattle public schools has been using leaves big holes, the students that are doing well are either students whose teachers supplement with their own curriculum or/& students whose parents are able to fill in the blanks.
Part of the problem how I see it is that elementary teachers are often not comfortable with math, and do a cursory job. My younger daughter despite her teachers telling me how bright she was, was not getting math, and when I finally enrolled her in Kumon in 8th grade after years of trying to get better instruction in the public school, I was shocked to see that she had never been exposed to long division among other concepts.
<a href="http://wgquirk.com/TERCSV.html%5B/url%5D">http://wgquirk.com/TERCSV.html</a>
this is the type of math that our local districts use.</p>
<p>Nedad and Ek:
Some of the problems discussed by Ek may be a consequence of states' math frameworks rather than of a particular curriculum. Take, for example, Texastaximom's post on 8th graders taking algebra and doing poorly on TAKS because they have not studied probability and statistics. TAKS, and other state tests are aligned with frameworks, not particular textbooks. It has been argued that in other countries, fewer math topics are required, but they are studied in greater depth. I myself studied algebra and geometry in an integrated fashion rather than as separate topics all the way through 12th grade (with trigonometry introduced in 10th grade). But I don't remember studying probability and statistics.</p>
<p>That said, I have heard parents complain that math programs such as TERC, Everyday Math, Connected Math (all feeders into IMP) do drop topics and pick them up again (the spiralling concept). Teachers, who are expected to cover all topics, move on to the next one without making sure that all students have mastered the old one. While the idea is that when they next encounter the topic, they will get it. I'm skeptical of this claim. I believe that students retain information better if they get it in the first place. As well, there does not seem to be a logical reason for the way topics are sequenced.<br>
This is not an argument for or against IMP, but against cramming too many topics into a single curricular year. What my older S liked about the presentation of IMP we went to was the focus on understanding the whys, not just the hows of math, and the problem-solving approach. Still, no matter what curriculum is followed, nothing beats a really good teacher.</p>
<p>I agree, Marite.
Emeraldktiy4, I followed your link - wow! No wonder! Maybe our district does so well because the k-7 (or 8, depending on when the child starts Integrated Math) is standard - not TERC or common math or whatever. I think it would be extremely hard for most children that age to do any kind of comprehensive integrated-type course. I think the Integrated program should be left until high school.</p>
<p>My 12th grader took Algebra I in 7th grade as part of the Governor's pushing the schools to work toward all kids having Algebra I in 8th grade; therefore the advanced kids needed it in grade 7. Five 6th graders worked on Algebra 1/2 and worked over the summer to be prepared. I think all five selected kids passed with As and got top marks on the California Golden State exam in Algebra, so if the kids are prepared and ready mentally, it can work. </p>
<p>We then moved to a school which has integrated math not a year of Alg/Geo/Trig- my daughter was bored at times with repetitive things and has worked up through the years, is in Calc AP and the integrated Math 12 and is one of the best students. This areas integrated mathematics is NOT some new, faddish thing, but the way things have always been done here. I will know more after the CALC AP and when she takes university placement exams, but she seems well prepared in math, so I think it is possible for the system to work- depending on the implementation and the curriculum....math here is done the old-fashioned way, not with a furthering of the "Everyday MAth" style of learning.</p>