Some of you don't even approve of graduate student TAs

Parents Forum
41

<p>
[quote]
Quote:
Leading a section is having a discussion on the material. It is just providing an opportunity to be in small groups for discussion when the lecture doesn't allow for that.
. . . </p>

<p>That's teaching.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Absolutely. And in my experience, leading a discussion (successfully) is far more difficult than lecturing.</p>

<p>I don't have a problem with undergrads being peer tutors (they can be incredibly effective) or even grading objective-style exams, but I'm not a fan of treating undergrads a mini-grad students. I wouldn't want one in charge of my students' discussion sections - either as a professor or as a parent.</p>

42

<p>At my undergrad university, the TAs were assistants. They didn't run the class, they led sections and helped with grading and tutoring. There was a voluntary program, ESG, where undergraduate students could teach (and in some cases, design) small classes.</p>

<p>Most of my TAs were grad students, but some were undergrads. It didn't bother me as long as I could understand what they were saying (more likely with the undergrads than with the grads) and they knew the material (more likely with undergrads than with grads, since they had seen the material more recently, and had to have done really well in that particular class to get the job, whereas the grads got sent to classes that needed TAs, whether they were strong in that particular subfield or not). I was an undergrad TA myself (for a pass/fail, completely elective, class). My experience was that the undergrads were disproportionately likely to be <em>good</em> TAs. I understand wanting the overall class to be run by a professor, but I don't understand the resistance to TAs, grad or undergrad.</p>

43

<p>I think we need to define TA. It seems as though it means different things at different schools. My kids all attend(ed) colleges without TA's. It just worked out that way - they wanted smaller schools.
My Chem major is a Chem tutor and grades lab reports for the professor - she is a senior and helps freshmen (mostly). Is she a TA? I dunno - I guess.</p>

<p>In contrast - I went to a large state Univeristy and we had lots of TA's. These were graduate students who were pursuing a master's degree in the field. In many cases, the course work was done they were just finishing their thesis.
When I took Chem - with 300 kids in the class our labs were all taught by TA's.
They were wonderful - they were enthusiatic and excited and I loved my lab's.
Even 30 years ago I have some pretty good memories of my general and organic chemistry labs. I always thought my TA's enhanced my education.</p>

44

<p>Marian,</p>

<p>I think you need to look at the situation entirely as a compliment. </p>

<p>I had a similar situation back in college when I took an intro ballroom dance class from an older woman instuctor who at the end of the class asked me to be her TA (they need a manequin to demonstrate as well as help assisting those who are struggling) the next term. I had a great time with it, and really it helped me reinforce what I had learned the previous term. Not to mention the easy money.</p>

45

<p>Our son was a TA jr and sr year for a intro level CompSci course lab. The lab was also staffed by a grad student and the course prof would attend for 15-30 mins during most sessions. Our son was there to assist with questions concerning the lab itself and any os issues arising during the session. He did no grading or other TA type tasks.</p>

<p>The pay was good, he enjoyed helping other budding compsci majors and got to know his prof alot better. In addition the students go more individual attention if they needed it.</p>

46

<p>I think we'd all agree fluent in English should absolutely be a requirement of a class taught here in the U.S. Without a heavy foreign accent would also be preferred. Any instructor should be competent. I believe those 3 items hold true whether it refers to a 20 yr old, or a 20 yr tenured prof. My complaint about TA's is that I don't feel that's what I'm paying for. One can see the upcoming schedule of classes and read the class, time, subject, and teacher, etc. I expect the instructor listed to be the instructor(barring unforseen emergencies).
If I get a haircut by a student barber, I am choosing to get a discounted rate because I am assuming some risk in that I know he isn't experienced.<br>
I feel like using a TA is bait and switch- even if the TA is skilled, I still feel the school has provided a student teacher when I was expecting someone else. The comment "but he was a good ta" just doesn't cut it for me.</p>

47

<p>
[quote]
Our son was there to assist with questions concerning the lab itself and any os issues arising during the session. He did no grading or other TA type tasks.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In my undergrad program, those folks were called LAs (lab assistants). They were very useful. Some of them later became TAs.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If I get a haircut by a student barber, I am choosing to get a discounted rate because I am assuming some risk in that I know he isn't experienced.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If you're dealing with a professional barber, their primary job is to cut hair. If you're dealing with a professor at a research university, their primary job is to do research. When it comes to teaching, there's not much reason to assume that they are better than the TAs.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I expect the instructor listed to be the instructor(barring unforseen emergencies).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Let's say you have an intro physics class with 300 students. Would you rather there only be lectures by the professor, or would you rather those be complemented with ten 30-student discussion sections led by TAs (and no, it is not remotely realistic to expect the professor to hold ten different discussion sections)?</p>

<p>
[quote]
My complaint about TA's is that I don't feel that's what I'm paying for.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's not as though what people are primarily paying for in college is instructors with lots of teaching experience (or teaching quality, for that matter). They're paying for the research opportunities, the advising, the student, staff, faculty, and alumni networks, the facilities, the quality of and interaction with peers, the class offerings, the resources, the rigor, the reputation, the career/placement services. The academic side of the college experience is about so much more than sitting in a classroom, and the classroom experience is about so much more than whether you're being taught only by profs or by profs + TAs.</p>

<p>For that matter, at universities that have a lot of students go on to PhD programs (where most of them will be expected to TA), the opportunity for undergrads to TA would be considered a plus. And for those who object to grad TAs, do you think that professors become expert teachers when they first get their PhDs? If you want <em>good</em> professor instructors, TAs are a necessity.</p>

48

<p>Agree with Jessiehl. I've already mentioned my friend at a top LAC who has 100+ students and no TA to help him grade papers and exams or, for that matter, lead discussion sections. Vs. my S whose sections are capped at 18.</p>

<p>My S actually was a course assistant in his sophomore year as was a former schoolmate at MIT in a different field. They both graded problem sets, went over materials that the students felt they had not understood fully from the lectures and gave mini lectures, time permitting. They also held office hours and staffed a weekly drop-in help center.
S is currently applying to grad programs. At least one such program asks about previous teaching experience! Oh, I forgot to add that many of the more advanced math students begin to take graduate courses as early as their sophomore year.</p>

<p>As far as TAs with limited English, I am getting tired of reading constant moaning about it. We would not be having this problem if more Americans deigned to go into grad programs in math and science. Maybe the problem will disappear now that Wall Street is no longer the destination for a huge proportion of American students. In the meantime, we should be happy that there are some who are available to teach our sons and daughters math and science.</p>

49

<p>In contrast to the UG math graders/tutors, the "TA" S1 has for his HUM class is a PhD student working on her dissertation. The comments she wrote regarding his first paper were astounding. She clearly spent time and care on reviewing his work, had numerous comments both supporting what he wrote as well as offering suggestions for improvement, and it was returned to him as a separate typed document with his essay. If that's a TA, that's fine with me. S1 has NEVER had a writing experience like this with his HS teachers, and S2 doesn't get this level of attention from his IB English teacher, either.</p>

<p>I expect S1 will be teaching math and/or computer science at some point during his college career -- there is no mistaking his passion for it (and that was part of why he chose Chicago). I think it's fair to say that if an UG is teaching, that person WANTS to be doing it.</p>

50

<p>I would add to the helpful comments of Marite and CountingDown that I don't completely buy in to the idea of all teaching assistants having to be native speakers of English. Of course, I was a foreign language major, so having teaching assistants who spoke that language as a native language was a feature rather than a bug. :) But more generally, if a person speaks English that is generally understandable to educated speakers of English from a variety of countries, and can understand student spontaneous questions, then the students should adapt rather than whine about an unfamiliar accent. People all over the world use English every day for communication, and not all of them speak with my kind of native General American accent. I have been glad to learn how to communicate in English with people from lots of other countries, and that would be a plus in a college education to have that opportunity early and often--including when dealing with professors and teaching assistants--rather than to have it postponed. (In this regard, listening to international news on National Public Radio, as my family does every day, is good preparation for college.)</p>

51

<p>I think it's fine. Let her do it. If she's grading papers and answering questions (and she knows the material), no problem. She shouldn't tell everyone that she's a sophomore, though.</p>

<p>I had a number of TAs as an undergrad--two of them were PhD students and they were both fantastic. Two were masters--one in math was horrible--and he was an American who was fluent in English. He was just painfully shy, stuttered, (well, not so fluent, really) and couldn't speak in front of the class. Every time he did a problem on the board, he'd make a mistake--he was so nervous.
The other TA couldn't speak much English--but that was OK--she was teaching French.</p>

<p>I confess that I was once a TA myself. I was probably (cringe) below average. (I hope no one out there remembers ME as "the worst TA ever!")</p>

52

<p>I agree with marite that if large classes taught by professors did not have TAs, there likely would not be small discussion sessions. I don't see the TAs as being instead of the professor. They add to the overall experience and add extra sessions for discussion among students, simply with someone guiding and leading that discussion based on consultation with the professor. It adds to the course what might not be possible otherwise. </p>

<p>In a foreign language course, added sessions with a TA provide added opportunities to practice communication with one another and to use the language and do not require a professor. It is an "add-on" for the course and doesn't replace professors teaching.</p>

53

<p>It depends completely on what the TA's duties are.</p>

<p>E.g., I was a TA who helped students with problem sets while the professor was also in the classroom. It was a case of providing additional help for students, not "instead of" having the professor do it. BTW, I was a spring semester sophomore at the time who had aced the course during the fall semester, and I was so introduced (this was the professor's preference, since the material was fresh in my head). No big deal.</p>

54

<p>"I agree with marite that if large classes taught by professors did not have TAs, there likely would not be small discussion sessions. I don't see the TAs as being instead of the professor. They add to the overall experience and add extra sessions for discussion among students, simply with someone guiding and leading that discussion based on consultation with the professor. It adds to the course what might not be possible otherwise. "</p>

<p>Not a problem for a graduate student TA but this isn't approriate for an undergraduate who just took the course last year.</p>

55

<p>
[quote]

Not a problem for a graduate student TA but this isn't appropriate for an undergraduate who just took the course last year.

[/quote]

Some schools (LACs) do not have graduate students, so all the TAs are undergrads.</p>

<p>Grad student TA is not always better. Undergrad TAs are usually hand-picked by the professors, they don't have to TA, and if they choose to, it usually because they are highly interested/motivated to do it. Grad students HAVE to TA as a part of their funding agreement. Some of them are excellent teachers, and become excellent profs. Others much less so.</p>

56

<p>A professor may not always be better than a man off the street -there are always exceptions. However an individual who has more in depth knowledge of the field is a better bet.</p>

57

<p>I agree with nngmm. Last year, when my D was a senior, one of the courses she TA'd for had some grad TAs and a couple of senior TAs and they were hand picked and vetted. My D had taken the course either two or three years prior. The grad TAs could have been in their first year of grad school and not that much different really. The TA sections were planned on a rotating basis by each TA and fully discussed as a group with the professor ahead of time. My D got a lot of great feedback about her sections. I don't know that her sections were any different than the ones taught by the MA students. </p>

<p>Then, in the foreign language course, her sections had a different purpose and were to allow students to practice communicating in the language and given her level, I dont' think it mattered if she was a grad student or a senior who had attained that level of competency with the language to facilitate a section that was practicing the language.</p>

58

<p>An undergraduate who just took the course last year has the materials fresh in his or her memory. Better than someone who took the course eons ago. In math, students are discouraged from taking time off between college and grad school for fear that they will forget their math. A grad student in differential geometry is not likely to have taken linear algebra in the previous few years.
S's chum at MIT was a course assistant in organic chemistry in his sophomore year. Everyone of the students in his section passed the class, usually a weed-out class for pre-meds. </p>

<p>If a student does not like being taught by TAs, s/he should seek out smaller classes. In most cases, there is absolutely no reason to flock like lemmings to classes that have 500+ students.</p>

59

<p>"If a student does not like being taught by TAs, s/he should seek out smaller classes. In most cases, there is absolutely no reason to flock like lemmings to classes that have 500+ students." If you're premed, there isn't much choice in a large university unless you want to change fields.</p>

60

<p>So would the solution be to hire 25 profs so that they can all teach orgo to classes of 20? Do you want to pay that kind of tuition? At Harvard, by the way, tuition and fees cover only 20% of the annual expenses. Full profs earn somewhere around $150k, teaching four courses (fewer in the sciences); course assistants earn something like $2000 per course.</p>