<p>Wow, I 'm glad you posted! It's all part of growing up a accepting responsibility. This is another reason why Withdrawing from a class rather than accepting that failure is SO important. I would not upset S . Take a philosophical approach. Discuss what his long term goals may be . I also would favor him trying a few classes at a community college. And be careful to encourage and not belittle him. There are so many potholes in the road of life! Try to be encoraging and upbeat and move on.</p>
<p>I have been addressing the issue of the OP's son. He clearly flunked two major courses this term and it is an issue. Whether his side of the story is true or if there is more there is impossible for the parents to determine without input from the school. There could be some real problems here which is why a "post mortem" is important. The kid could have skipped out on all of the classes, been warned repeatedly, mental illness or drugs could be involved. He may have an undiagnosed learning disability. Anything is possible. Kids do not necessarily always tell their parents everything when these things happen. It would be natural for him to be defensive and leave out a critical piece of the story. If he simply did not do the work, he deserved to flunk out, and things need to be done differently than if there are other issues to be addressed. When my son got his miserable report that semester, we knew exactly what had happened, and I had been telling him to drop the computer course and add a no count course before it was too late. I had in fact know from the onset that his load was not advisable, taking a top entry level tech course in the computer science department that is required for the engineering, math and computer techies. I also knew that the science course was geared for premeds. The language level was really a stretch for him as well as he had not taken any language since he was a sophomore in highschool; never mind he tested into that level. Any one of those courses he might have been able to handle but all three was risky living given his study mode, motivation and that he had a 20 hour a week athletic commitment. So it was no big surprise here when he flunked the final and the course. Now his school doesn't seem to kick anyone out without all kinds of warnings, probations and advisings, and was very generous in giving non major course credit from other colleges. I just rechecked the academic dismissal site. Neither does Cornell, nor CMU. Johns Hopkins bounces you right out and warns it can be without any probation or discussion if you fall below a 1.0. But, you know, I did not know the policy of my own kid's school. It's not exactly blazoned on the parents information website. </p>
<p>There is no question that the young man in question will have to bear the brunt of all of this. But I know that my D who is upset about a situation is not exactly rational and logical in discussing it. And she is usually reasonable. When I asked some directed questions, things got pretty tense. And I had had my doubts about her plans from the onset. In her defense, upon calling her school, advisor, department, liason, none of them could answer my questions either. I have to go to a more direct source.</p>
<p>That is certainly a bad situation. But kids flunking out of college that first semester is certainly not unheard of. </p>
<p>My guess is that while this may have come as a surprise to you, it probably was not a surprise to him. I think you should avoid coddling or trying to get involved with the school administration on his behalf. This isn't high school anymore. Let him own up to his failure and map a new path. That's what growing up is all about, and most college freshman still have LOTS of growing up to do.</p>
<p>Good luck. This too may end up with a silver lining!</p>
<p>I guess I am one who would be scrutinizing the kid on this one - there was some reason that he performed the way he did. I don't believe you are coddling a kid if you try to identify the reason. Once it's identified, you can decide how you'll deal with it. If a kid is depressed, it should come as no surprise that he didn't know he should/could drop courses, or maybe he was sleeping 15 hours a day and couldn't make it to class. On the other hand, if a kid is drinking and the problems stem from that, you need to address drinking. If he has dyslexia and it was never discovered until now, you certainly have something concrete to deal with. Maybe it is simply a matter of maturity, but until you rule out other things, you simply don't know.</p>
<p>At times like this, it's good to remember that growth comes as a result of experiences like this, that everyone has them at some point in their lives and that it's an opportunity for us as parents to show our kids how you deal with one of life's problems. It sounds like you've gone to bat for your son and are justifiably angry with how he's been treated. The next step might be to look critically at that loveable son and see where his responsibility in all this lies and what he can take away from it and how he can turn it around for himself, with your help.</p>
<p>Gutwrenching, as Jamimom says, but we have two local girls undergoing gruelling cancer treatments, outcomes up in the air, and it constantly puts these 'speedbumps' into perspective for me. Take away something good for yourself and your son from this.</p>
<p>I feel there are two quite separate issues here. One is the student's performance and the other is the way the college handled things. The college handled the situation in a totally heartless way. Even if the policy is spelled out, there are ways of handling difficult situations that are more humane.
If the student did well enough on the midterms, he may not have gotten a clear signal that he was in danger of flunking. That is the problem with final grades that may weight as much as 40-50% of a course grade. But it seems he did have some issues and some signals that he was at risk, whether through poor work habits, some kind of undiagnosed disability, or some behavioral problem. I agree that there should be a thorough airing of the issues. However angry the OP is at the college administration for handling things so cold-heartedly, the more important thing is to focus on the student's needs.</p>
<p>There have been many insightful and tactful references to my son's failures in 2 classes and the overall less-than-stellar academic performance of his first semester. I do want to say that he is the first to admit that he should have worked harder. Jamimom has consistently returned to the reality that the underlying causes of being dismissed must be teased out and addressed to move forward productively, and I fully agree. I hope we can persuade the school to grant us a post-mortem in some way, shape or form. I hope that with him back under our wing and taking a CC class or two as well as working (as I think Sac mentioned), we'll understand more about what his academic difficulties stem from and be in a better position to help. I do understand that it may not be a picnic though!</p>
<p>Curmudeon raised excellent questions: "Test failures, attendance failures, failures on papers, projects, labs-what got him? In what way , if any ,did his previous preparation fail him? What part, if any, did absences, or failure to turn in work (other than discussed earlier) have on the grades? Were they all excused absences? ... Was he prepared for college? Do his best and still fail? Or did he help himself fail by getting away from home and going brain-dead? How did his statistics from high-school "stack up" against the class profile? Did he reach too high?" </p>
<p>I think that all of the above may be factors (though I don't think he reached too high: from all we could determine going in, Guilford looked like an excellent fit for him). I mentioned earlier his HS had a somewhat narrow focus that may have been a handicap in some areas like writing. I know he had too many absenses. I know he has time-management problems (and I sense other parents have experienced the same, maybe especially with sons?). I think he naively gave equal value and time to the social component of the school, and forgot that college was fundamentally about hard work. There were parties, there was weed, no denying-- no frats there but I don't fool myself-- he had a good time and I know what that means. On the other hand one of the best things to come out of his semester were the strong friendships he forged with a few really decent kids, the confidence he developed by adjusting well in many respects to all that freshman life, far from home, really means. He got through a few tough hurdles (both academic and personal) in the course of a few short months and for that we're proud of him. Don't think for a minute he hasn't been grilled on those poor grades and knows that we are upset with HIM that he didn't work harder. The tightrope we feel we're walking, however, is that we want him to know he has to rise to a higher standard without further damaging his self-confidence about ultimately continuing college somewhere else. I don't necessarily think he has told us everything about his bad grades. But I don't think he has decieved us about the exchanges he actually had with teachers and advisors. I do think he worked reasonably hard. He had a couple of low grades at midterm, but he wasn't failing. He raised his English grade subsequently, which is typically his most difficult class, and that alone tells me that he didn't just blow it all off at that point. I think the real slide came later, and if he'd been able to withdraw from the other problem class it may have been prevented (that is detailed in an earlier post). </p>
<p>Basically we all would like to have seen how he might have performed given another semester to right himself. I just feel in my gut, despite the rules and regulations, that putting him on probation, with one more term to prove himself, would have been the just and reasonable thing to do-- dare I say the Quaker thing?-- even if the aid was yanked and we had to pay full tuition for that term. We believe he could have rallied with a little more know-how under his belt. The school didn't. We agree that the school may have reached out to him in ways he didn't recognize, that resources may have been there that he didn't take advantage of (I harped a lot about going to the Academic Skills Center for help and that there was no shame in doing it). But we also know that he reached out for help in his way and was discouraged and/or given the runaround (as was I, later). I just wish he'd been given a heads-up that registered with him from someone, anyone, before it was too late. Maybe this isn't really the school's responsibility, but particularly in the case of the First Year Experience seminar taught by his advisor, I do feel the advisor (and by extension the college) shares some of the responsibility for the failure. </p>
<p>Hope some of this helps clarify the larger picture and I'm sorry if I have left off any questions.</p>
<p>Dealing with these kinds of situations is basically my day to day job. I work in a federally funded program (Student Support Services) whose mission is to increase retention and graduation rates for low income/first gen college students. The situation described her is very familiar to me, as I encounter similar stories every day. </p>
<p>A couple thoughts:</p>
<p>First, Curmudgeon, you're absolutely correct that we only know the student's side. I spend half my time trying to figure out what's going on with the students I work with--why they're failing, why they're not attending class, what help are they getting (or not)? Sometimes, I feel like my role is really "professional parent" as I cajole, badger, and otherwise push my students into taking responsibility and doing what they need to do to succeed.</p>
<p>OTOH, this is a learning experience for them. College is nothing like HS. Most of my students come from low-performing high schools, were pushed along because they're nice people, have parents who didn't attend college and may not be very involved or know how to be, are very low-income, work long hours, may have kids of their own, etc etc. Often, their first semester is very problematic. They "screw up" by missing classes, not buying the books, missing exams, not doing work, but then, when the warning signs converge, they start to make attempts to fix things. They start to "get it." That's when unsuccessful classes get dropped, meetings with profs happen, requests for extensions or second chances occur. Sometimes, it's fixable; sometimes not. Then, they're staring at that 1.3, they've been kicked out of housing (happened to one of mine), they're on probation. They can't go back and undo that first semester, but that doesn't mean they haven't figured out where they made their mistakes. That's why this college's action seem so harsh to me. Even if the OP's kid is more to blame than we'd like to think, my concern is still the reaction of the college.</p>
<p>Though the school I work for doesn't drop freshmen after one semester, they will drop them from housing, which will probably be the academic kiss of death, as that will mean a long commute (sometimes a couple hours and several buses), and the likelihood of missing more classes. One student of mine was put in Freshman Seminar at eight in the morning. A commuter, she missed a couple classes, and the prof flunked her. So she had to take it again-- but only the eight was open. She Withdrew right away, but the school will only let someone start a class twice, so that's it, she's out of college because of the class that's supposed to support you in being a student.</p>
<p>That class is often taught here by full profs who don't usually teach frosh. They can turn it into a nightmare--expecting upper class level writing from students who might simultaneously be taking "developmental" or ESL writing classes. Then they flunk them. Not the lesson about college they were supposed to be getting. Luckily, it's a half course unit class here, so it does less damage. The OP's class seems similar to these, in that it comprised so much work that making it up was impossible and the attempt sabotaged his other grades. Freshman experience type classes can be great when they're really taught toward supporting students, but can be nightmarish when they become more difficult than the "academic" classes which are the ultimate reason for being at college.</p>
<p>Anyway, this all doesn't help the OP, but my main point is that even if this student precipitated the situation, I still think the school has more responsibility to make sense of it, and I still believe that dropping the student after one semester does not follow the claims they make about themselves.</p>
<p>I continue to empathize with the OP and continue also to realize I could be here shortly.</p>
<p>You have a difficult job Garland, but I'm sure the occasional victory is sweet!</p>
<p>I agree that this is not the Quaker approach. Even if the student was having one big party, he deserved to be straightened out and given a second chance. Many freshmen blow it big time out of the gate. My feeling is that his advisor disliked this student for some reason and wanted to see him go. Perhaps he saw him high or your son's attitude offended him? I would be seeking to talk extensively to him for some true insight,</p>
<p>Garland - could it be that the school thinks they are acting reasonably? I don't recall the exact terms, but didn't the op state he could return next year? I do agree that to do this after one semester, regardless of what the student's gpa is, seems severe. If a student in that school was savy enough to drop their failing courses, what would their standing be now? (If that hypothetical student were better off than the poster's son, it looks to me like they need to change their policies.) Something else just clicked - I know at my son's school, students can be dismissed for behavior that is deemed dangerous to others - including things like sexual harrassment. Is it possible there was a behavorial piece to this that left the school acting in a way that appears harsh? It does suprise me that a Quaker school would be unforgiving of things that aren't outright dangerous, but then I've never heard of this school.</p>
<p>Lefthand: we can only infer that the dismissal is academic, as that is what the OP says.</p>
<p>As far as my students--savvy? I wish. Few drop a class in time to not get the F, and if they drop more than one, they'll have their financial aid revoked and owe back what was paid for their tuition. These are severely low income students--that would be a disaster for them.</p>
<p>Also, I believe the OP says her son couldn't return for a year, not just a semester.</p>
<p>Hey as parents we know that there are 3 sides you every story, Yours, mine and the truth. When we listen to someone's tale of woe, when the story is being told, their's is the most egregious one that you've ever heard.</p>
<p>I do agree with Curmudegon, that while the school get no points on communicating their policy, where does the student's ownership, responsibility and accountabilty lie in all of this? In most cases the teachers/processors are not giving you a grade, they are merely documenting the one that you've earned.</p>
<p>lefthandofdog: I am 100% sure there was no behaviorial issue involved because I asked that question right off the bat, and was told it was a strictly academic problem. The terms of readmission are my son can "request permission" of the Dean to reapply in one year's time (January 06) but readmission is in no way guaranteed. I seriously doubt he will choose to reapply at Guilford.</p>
<p>My older S, who entered college with a major merit scholarship because he was one of their top entering freshmen, got below a 1.0 fall semester freshman year.</p>
<p>He had been totally disorganized (has ADHD, but he refused meds and other support for it) and has skipped lots of classes. He had, though, done extraordinarily well in the academic-related EC that was related to the major that his scholarship required. He was putting more than 30 hours a week into that EC (which was one easy to track the time commitment) and was one of the best students at the university at the EC.</p>
<p>We never accepted S's ridiculous excuses for bad grades. We knew that there was no excuse for such marks. </p>
<p>With S's permission, my husband flew up to the college and, with my son, talked with S's advisor, who worked out a spring schedule that was designed to help S do very well. They also allowed him to keep his merit aid. He was put on academic probation, however. Despite all of the support, S's spring academic performance was just as bad as what he did in the fall. His EC performance, however, was exceptional. He even won a major regional award.</p>
<p>S decided to "take time off" (his words. Reality is that he flunked out) after that semester, got a job, and moved a couple of thousand miles away, where he remains, working a variety of temporary jobs.</p>
<p>Since then, we have learned that S -- who had been a very conservative h.s. student who by his own choice didn't date or hang out at all -- had started partying very heavily while in college. This was what caused those horrendous grades.</p>
<p>If I could do things over, instead of working with the college to help S stay, we would have asked the college to have forced S to take time off after his abominable fall semester, and then S would have had to handle the full brunt of the consequences of his actions. Since he would not have had a job, he would have had to come back home, and we would have had a far better idea about what was going on with him than we did with his being in college more than 1,000 miles away.</p>
<p>My thoughts about Guilford are that the college did the right thing. A student who gets an average of below 1.0 is not ready for college. As a former college professor, I also know that students get lots of advance warning when they are in grade trouble. I would bet my mortgage that your son is not telling you the full story. </p>
<p>As for this question:"What kind of ADVISOR lets a first semester freshman get kicked out of college for failing his own course, especially a course on adjusting to college life?"</p>
<p>Based on my experiences as a mom and as a prof, I doubt that the OP's S was taking advantage of the course or of the advisor. No advisor and no course can force a student to take the steps that are necessary to stay in college.</p>
<p>My own thoughts are, too, that the "how to handle college" courses are the kind of handholding that goes far beyond what most students who are ready for college need. If a student manages to flunk such a course, that is a big indication that the student lacks the maturity for college. </p>
<p>IMO this would be a good time for the student to take some structured time off from academics, to work a fulltime job and to if living at home pay rent -- the kind of rent he would be paying if he were renting a room elsewhere. If the parents give him a break on his rent, that will simply give him the false idea that he can live a comfortable life on a minimum wage job.</p>
<p>I also think that if he decides to go to community college, he should be responsible for paying for his courses and getting at least a "B" or "C" average in them before his parents agree to start picking up the tab again.</p>
<p>We have told older S that if he returns to college, we would be willing to offer him some help if he pays for a semester himself, and also gets at least a "B" average that semester. </p>
<p>I know that all of this is hard for the OP to go through. It breaks my heart to see the hand to mouth lifestyle that my smart, creative, capable son has brought on himself. However, hard as it is, it is very important for us to have our children take responsibility for their actions. No matter how hard we try, we can't take the actions to make them do well in college.</p>
<p>LBR6,</p>
<p>Can you post the courses he took, the credit hours that each was worth, and the grades received in each? Maybe we can figure out where the .9 came from.</p>
<p>About the first year college class--I took something like that, but we didn't actually do anything worth doing. What did he have to do for this class??</p>
<p>northstarmom: thanks for the sobering story and your educated view of the situation. I value your point of view and see the wisdom there. We do hope that being forced to reassess his goals and priorities for college and beyond early on will be of benefit to S-- it's the silver lining, I guess. I am so sorry for the anguish you've obviously experienced with your son's ongoing saga, and hope that he finds his path.</p>
<p>bluealien: I think we established that unfortunately the GPA was correct (earlier in the thread I detailed the credit hours, etc.). The FYE course was called on the topic of sustainability and was taught by an Economics professor. There was a lot of reading (over 100 pages a week I think my son said), writing and journal/portfolio-keeping; we haven't had that thorough "deconstruction" conversation with S about the work in the class yet so I'm afraid I can't supply more detail at the moment. I do know the professor has been at the school for over 20 years and Garland's comments about senior faculty more accustomed to teaching older students struck me as a possibility. This is the kind of info we would like to extract from a conversation with him and possibly a representative from the First Year Center. The Dean did tell me that though it won't help my son, they are in the process of reevaluating the FYE curriculum.</p>
<p>Wow. All we did was play games and talk about how "I don't know" means "I don't think." And the guy teaching it cursed a lot and was hilarious....A free three credits.....</p>
<p>This, to me, is a major problem with the "Freshman Seminar" concept. No one seems to agree with what it should be. In some schools, it's always organized around a topic of the prof's choosing, and then depends on the level of expectation the prof brings to it. In other schools, it's strictly a "how to be a college student"course. In many, it's a hybrid between the two, but the level of rigor is still in the hands of a prof who may have very little understanding of freshman preparation issues.</p>
<p>At my college, they started it years ago with a kind of hybrid model--because of "academic freedom", different sections of the course were taught at wildly different levels of expectation--there were profs who routinely failed half their class (weed-out freshman seminar--there's an oxymoron). Saner heads have urged a more straightforward "readiness" type class, but it constantly has to be repeated that instructors can't expect college level reading and writing in students who are in remedial and/or ESL English classes. Overall, many students' chances of success have more to do with which instructor they get than any other factor.</p>