@hapworth is that the study that compared students who were admitted to UPenn and Penn State? If it is I heard a story about it years ago on NPR and cite it often.
I have seen both sides of the “Where you go is not what you become.” issue, and there are valid points on both sides.
I attended a state flagship for undergrad (full ride and honors program), spent some years working, and attended a HYPSM for grad school. Financially, I was doing fine before grad school, and considerably better afterwards. Perhaps I would have done just as well without grad school, but there is no way to be sure.
But money is really only one part of it. There is simply a wealth of opportunities available at elite colleges that may not exist at state flagships. Here are some things to think about:
- Changing majors: My D who is a freshman at an elite college entered with an interest in a hard science, but has switched to a social science. She is free to choose any major she wants, including computer science, potentially up until the end of sophomore year. In contrast, many state flagships are much more regimented.
- Interesting job opportunities: For many CS students at a state flagship, Google is an aspirational job. For many CS students at an elite college, Google is a backup in case something better doesn't come along. For some that means working in finance or consulting. For others it means working on economics models at the NBER, or the big data analysis that is now part of F1 Racing, or Sabermetrics as a baseball intern. Some of these positions pay a lot more than Google, some pay less, but the point is that there are options. And I am not disparaging Google, as many students at elite colleges want to work there over anywhere else.
- College advisors: Related to #2, elite colleges have strong advising departments to let students make the most of their college experience. I have lost track of all the advisors that my D has available, but I know she has a general career advisor, another one related specifically to her career of interest, one for her major, another for her minor(s), and likely others that she hasn't used yet (such as study abroad). All are "free" in the sense that they are included in the tuition.
ETA: And I managed to exclude the elephant in the room, which is the simply different level of education that you get when most of your peers are intelligent as well. Classroom discussion moves at a different pace, and you can have conversations about politics, literature, or physics with just about any student, including other football players.
@hebegebe a lot of what you describe can be found at smaller colleges not included in the Ivy League. A small school allows for more flexibility, but it usually comes with other trade-offs and a price tag, that may or may not be worth it. The OP’s son has a tough choice to make. UF Honors vs Ivy. The way I look at it, you have your entire life to be a student. You have your entire life to work. You have the option of working hard and attending an Ivy grad school, if that is important to you. But you only have one shot to play college football. Those that don’t have competitive athletes in the family or haven’t lived with big time college football won’t understand how important it is if you are given the opportunity. It’s a big deal. It’s an experience that can’t be replicated. So, again, the OP has a tough choice to make. UF is a top 50 university - it’s not an also ran, and it’s part of arguably the best conference in college football. The football experience at an Ivy would be vastly different. And while many here feel " you never turn down an Ivy", I disagree. You do what is best for you. Not everyone fits into the Ivy mold, regardless of intellect. Does it afford you with a lot of opportunities? Certainly. But so do the much maligned “flagships” and non-Ivy privates. Money magazine noted the top 10 schools with the most Fortune 500 CEO’s. They are: Harvard, Cornell, Penn State, Texas A&M, West Point, Notre Dame, Wisconsin, Princeton, Stanford and Miami. There are plenty of non-Ivies in there. I know being a CEO is not everyone’s goal, I am just using it to make a point. The OP’s kid already appears to be exceptional. If he picks UF and decides that football is too much, he can always transfer. He will have plenty of options.
You didn’t get a lot of advisors in your honors program? Granted, I think a lot of honors programs have seriously beefed up over a generation.
For the differential in money, I’d still choose Ivy/equivalent, however.
And I would definitely go elite for an MBA/JD/masters. The MBA and Master’s programs are a lot cheaper than undergrad, though, being 1-2 years only.
A few shares of stock in an IRA.
It was a mixed bag. Students in the honors program had the university’s best professors and small classes.And many of my peers in the honors program were very bright, and every bit the equivalent of what I found in grad school. But aside from an occasional check-in to make sure I was going to graduate, I don’t recall any advisors at all. And this was at a flagship that would be considered a peer to Florida.
@hebegebe: This may be a change across time as well. Top colleges (and honors programs, to stay competitive), have really beefed up advising and other support services (hence the exploding tuition costs).
20 years ago, at my Ivy-equivalent, my advisor also just checked to make sure I would graduate. I think I saw her maybe 3 times total.
One thing I think is helpful in making this kind of decision is for the student athlete to imagine her or himself at the school but without their sport. What would happen if they experienced a serious concussion or tore their knee, if they had substantial conflict with the head coach or if they simply burned out on the sport? What if the coach recruited someone stronger in their position next year and they’d spend sophomore-senior year sitting the bench? While it may seem unlikely now it’s a reality a lot of kids face at some point in the 4 years.
Would the 60-70K and Honors College make enough of a difference for him to give up the Ivy?
@Sue22: What an outstanding & thoughtful post.
@Sue22 I think he could see himself at either to be honest. Ivy or UF honors I think he would thrive at either. As for the 2nd point…in either of these schools as a choice he could simply stop playing the sport without it affecting his scholarship at UF or attending the Ivy. Ivy has no athletic scholarships so many kids to quit their sport but they still attend the school without consequence.
The main risk at UF is that if he is unable to maintain a 3.0 GPA between the heavy time commitment of both football and a high work major, he could lose the academic scholarship. If that happens, would UF still be affordable?
I think that a consideration for any SEC school is whether or not he will dress for each game & whether or not he will make the travel squad.
@ucbalumnus Yes due to FL prepaid.
@Publisher Very true…every kid wants to play and that is something to consider for sure.
@moscott --So I asked DH your question who is pretty well versed in Gator football overall (and knows the experience to play would be amazing).
But,
Short answer: Go to Harvard. Harvard wouldn’t let you in if they didn’t think you could succeed there. Grab that opportunity. Harvard will open more doors for you after graduation–which is the ultimate goal. Don’t squander the chance.
If you are a great football player with real talent and want to go into the NFL, the NFL will still find you at Harvard even if the crowds aren’t big…
Husband’s take (just from what I told him from your post): An academic scholarship is not close to the same as a football scholarship at UF. The football scholarship has tons of perks specifically for football players tailored specifically for them. If UF really wanted your son as a regular player they would be offering a football scholarship even though he already had an academic scholarship. He thinks your son’s playing time would be limited.
“For many CS students at an elite college, Google is a backup in case something better doesn’t come along. For some that means working in finance or consulting. For others it means working on economics models at the NBER, or the big data analysis that is now part of F1 Racing, or Sabermetrics as a baseball intern.”
Big data was practically invented at Google when a couple of their engineers had to come up with a way for Google to monetize web clicks which couldn’t be done with current technology, at least cheaply. Big data is pretty much part of your life at Google, it’s so indoctrinated in their culture. If you want to work on big data, that’s the company you go. Also, the five best CS programs in the country are Stanford, CMU, MIT, Michigan, Berkeley and all their CS grads either want to go to Google or start the next Google, not consulting or finance.
Always the option to go to Harvard first and as they don’t allow athletes to stay five years, if he were to red shirt his freshman year he can grad transfer and play sec football. Best of both worlds a Harvard degree and a chance to play SEC football (or wherever he could grad transfer to). Also grad transfers generally start as they have more experience. May be down the line but a great option if he is alright with a redshirt year.
I admit I haven’t read every post, so excuse me if this has been mentioned:
I would not accept as set in stone that he’s not going to grad school, in case that affects how the finances and/or opportunities shake down. Lots can change in the next few years including choice of major, as unlikely as it may seem. And he could decide to go for his master’s later, not necessarily immediately after graduating.
Sure, but now that it is a company of tens of thousands of people, most engineers are cogs in the machine, working on a little piece of the overall machinery, not designing the machine itself.
I agree that many want to start the next Google. And certainly some want to work there. But a good percentage of the grads I know have no interest for the reason I gave above. Perhaps we travel in different circles.
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond to this long thread. Just to keep you updated on the latest he currently still has the UF PWO option but now Duke has also offered a PWO. The difference would be that at Duke(unless he gets the Robertson) he would not get the full ride like UF. We are getting ready to do the summer college football camps at Stanford and the Ivy schools so we will know even more after that.
Thanks for the update. And, wow!