<p>My son is much the same. Not much of a work ethic, but willing to be frugal in order to make his money last.</p>
<p>I would be OK with this plan. I would, however, set some of the $$ aside instead to giving it to him so that if he has unexpected expenses, the money is there, and you wouldn't feel like you had to kick more in.</p>
<p>I should add to mine that in my first Ds case, living off campus was actually more expensive, so ours was more of a "heres your budget" do what you can with it....so we were looking at a different lesson to be learned, D had to seriously budget to live off campus in SoCal.</p>
<p>However D2 gets theoretically cheaper off campus housing, the first year we gave her the dorm amount, then the second year we went with the schools estimate of costs of on campus vs off campus, so D is not pocketing bunches of money, but might be able to budget and save a little bit, if she is careful and D is still working 10 hours a week, so I am not dealing with work ethic lessons.</p>
<p>km5 - interesting to see the different viewpoints on this. In the end it comes down to how you feel about it. It does not sound like you are falling over with enthusiasm at the idea. Maybe somewhere between like sunnyflorida suggested.</p>
<p>I think 'corranged' nailed it - if he buys jeans on sale would pay him the difference between that and retail, if walked instead of rode the bus a couple of miles would he charge you fair that savings, etc. </p>
<p>It seems that you said you'd pay for housing and food which is already quite generous - not that you'd pay a certain fixed amount and that he could keep any delta.</p>
<p>If you want to force your kid to do hard work, better to make them volunteer somewhere that would really be enlightening, than pretend-make-money at Starbucks or wherever. Say, if I'm going to pay for your college, you're going to do this or that community service. </p>
<p>My point is, it doesn't teach work ethic if you are pretend-working, even if it's tedious. It may teach the hatred of tedious work, but that's not a difficult lesson to learn. You may see how the "other half" lives, but you can do that without pretending to be one of them. Because pretending is always pretending, in the end.</p>
<p>I'm not actually trying to criticize the OP or anyone else. I'm just giving my take on it.</p>
<p>Grumpster, I know several people who work to support themselves at Starbucks. It's not "pretend-make-money"; it's real money. </p>
<p>If I had a kid with your attitude, you can be damned sure that you'd be working at Starbucks or the grocery store or Walmarts. Not "pretend-save-the-world" community service that you're interested in.</p>
<p>"Pretend work?" What is that? Work is work, no matter whether the actual tasks require great thought or not. Volunteering is great, but it's different than having a regular 9-5 job with an annoying boss, responsibility, and everything else that comes with having a job. The money also isn't negligible, and I think it's vital for college students to 1) gain this work experience, and 2) have their own money that's under their own control.
[quote]
You may see how the "other half" lives, but you can do that without pretending to be one of them. Because pretending is always pretending, in the end.
[/quote]
And what's with this split down the middle of society? There is a surprising amount of overlap between these "halves," not to mention all the people in between the two.</p>
<p>Doesn't have to be Starbucks (not that I see anything wrong with that - for an enormous part of the population of people what you call 'pretend working' is how they have to live and pay their bills. To me that is real life). My daughter worked at a veterinary clinic which taught her the important lesson that she did not actually want to be a vet. Now she works as a lab assistant for a professor at her school which has the added benefit of helping her make contacts within the school that she would not otherwise have. </p>
<p>Again it is different viewpoints. My daughter ex boyfriend is 19 and has never had a paying job. Personally I find that extraordinary. You could really see it in his attitude too. Like she got to drive everywhere because her car has better gas mileage and she paid for the gas because she has a job and he doesn't. My son just had a fit when he heard that story.</p>
<p>OP: Perhaps it's the way you presented this. If S has attitude, "Hey, do you think this could work? I really want to do this things" I think it is okay.</p>
<p>If attitude is, "Hey dude, you're spending this money anyway so you don't really have a say in this," I'd be uncomfortable.</p>
<p>It's really not about money, as you indicate, it's about attitude.</p>
<p>Yeah, when I went back and read your OP just now, there did seem to be an attitude issue. It does seem like with all the free time he has now, he could be working some.</p>
<p>And I do think that any job, paid or volunteer, can be a valuable learning experience.</p>
<p>
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And I do think that any job, paid or volunteer, can be a valuable learning experience.
[/quote]
I think so, too--but they are different.</p>
<p>It sounds like your son doesn't really have a financial stake or shared financial responsibility in his education. That's up to you... but I think that is where the problem stems from. He's looking at it all being your responsibility: parents pay $X, why can't he benefit if he can make $X stretch farther? Whereas, in a "shared" arrangement, each year the overall costs are $Y and parents + kids work together to decide how $Y will be paid with a fair proportional contribution from the kid from earnings or student loans. </p>
<p>I've been in both situations -- when I was in college, my parents sent me a monthly check to cover everything, and I figured out how to spend it - so I could pocket the difference if I found a cheaper place to live. But that was the early 70's, my monthly rent ranged from $55-$65, and my folks were sending $200/month. </p>
<p>As a parent, I've adopted the shared responsibility model -- in my case, I pay the bill from the bursar, kids pay the rest -- and my kids both went off the college meal plan after year #1, assuming the financial responsibility of paying for their own meals after that. Both kids have always worked for pay during college, as well as taken student loans. I have had to borrow to meet my end of the obligation -- which is why the "shared" part is necessary.</p>
<p>I do think that its nice that I avoid having to discuss the optional spending issues with my kids. Last year my d. stayed at her college during spring break and worked every day at off campus jobs to earn extra money to finance a summer internship -- that was fine with me. This year, my daughter has booked a flight to England for spring break -- she will spend 10 days visiting a friend in London -- also fine with me, since it isn't my money or my problem. (OK, I'm a little jealous.... but the point is, it doesn't cost me $$, and she doesn't have to ask me for any favors other than advice).</p>
<p>Please, I wasn't suggesting that Starbucks work isn't real work. If you need money, you need to work. But the discussion is about parents with lots of money who force their kids to work low-wage jobs to learn work ethic. What I'm saying is that is pretend work, since the kids aren't working for money, they are working to keep their benefactor (parents) happy. So they aren't really learning the value of money, except to see how "other" people make money.</p>
<p>Lots of people have lots of money. They are capable of spoiling their children in an infinite variety of ways. But they want to figure out how NOT to do that. That is what this discussion is about.</p>
<p>Most people don't have lots of money, their kids NEED to work to help pay for school. That is a different situation.</p>
<p>I am not trying to denigrate either situation. They are just different situations, both where the parents are trying to do what is "best" for their families.</p>
<p>I think his proposal is enterprising and deserving of consideration.</p>
<p>If he can save a couple hundred dollars each month by living off campus, and travel (which in is a worthy educational pursuit), why not?</p>
<p>He exhibits good problem solving skills by this proposal to you. If his proposal does not cost you one extra dime, he will have transferred the over-expensive dorm room and food into an educational trip.</p>
<p>good for him.</p>
<p>Calmom, I totally agree with the 'shared' part. That's why, if I wanted to support his travel, I would agree to it for 1 semester as long as he worked and banked his earnings until then. He needs to assume responsibility and not see the parents as benefactors.</p>
<p>
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He needs to assume responsibility and not see the parents as benefactors.
[/quote]
Exactly.</p>
<p>(This is coming from a 19-year-old college student, by the way.)</p>
<p>The title of the thread includes the phrase, "...avoid working..." It sounds like that is an important goal for the student. If the trip isn't worth working for, then I wouldn't subsidize his travel.</p>
<p>This is the original poster. Thanks to everyone for their varied opinions. I emailed son and asked him to consider working 10 hrs/week, even though he doesn't need the money immediately. </p>
<p>He plans to pay for South America by himself. Unfortunately he bought a ticket for 6 weeks smack dab in the middle of summer, so I doubt any employer would want him. However, I just noticed that the Democratic Convention is looking for volunteers in August. Now that would be an energizing experience.</p>
<p>I don't want to intimidate that son has an "attitude" and feels he's earned the right to sit back and do nothing. He was basically curious as to his parents' attitude re money if he moved off campus. Yes, Bronxville is expensive, but sharing apartments is allegedly cheaper than the dorms. And Yonkers, less safe and even cheaper, is equidistant from SLC.</p>
<p>Both of my boys worked at Starbucks and the experience, while not thrilling, was invaluable. In particular, standing on one's feet for minimum wage, and realizing that that's how millions in this country work, was eye-opening. Smiling at rude people who were extremely particular in their specialty drinks over an 8-hour period was also an experience that one can't easily find. Talking to people for whom Starbucks was only one of their two full-time jobs taught the boys lessons they could never learn in school.</p>
<p>Thank you all again for your thoughts.</p>
<p>As usual, calmom says things better than I can.</p>
<p>Yes, a family should share responsibility. </p>
<p>My son just told me that with all the commitments he has had to make for his music major that he's very sorry but doesn't think he can work this semester and get his practicing done and keep up his grades.</p>
<p>He had a plan to earn money over the summer, even though he also has volunteer work lined up.</p>
<p>I was fine with this, because he was very upfront about what he could and couldn't do, and apologetic. I did said that I wanted him to do volunteer work at least two or three hours a week because serving society is also a joint responsibility and I don't want him just living for himself. He said sure. And I gave him a list of "Jobs" if he wasn't going to work that included getter clearer ideas of what he is doing with his music, speaking to so and so and so and so. He agreed. But he knows I expect him to grow in responsibility every semester, whether it involves actual earnings or not.</p>
<p>He saves money by "renting" all his books from the library set up for kids on FA. I know this is less convenient and he can't mark up the books, but he actually saves as much as he could earn, or close to it, and he doesn't spend any money. So he cooperates that way.</p>
<p>When my D was a freshman, DH & I told her we'd pay for a 2-person dorm... but if she were willing to live in a triple, she could keep the difference in cost. (She chose the triple.) </p>
<p>My thinking was -- she's getting something for something: extra spending money in exchage for less convenience. She's learning about compromise and making choices. Isn't this what OP's son is proposing? Since he's proven himself by making wise choices in the past year, there's no reason to think he won't continue to make good choices.</p>
<p>And I personally believe, travel is a very worthwhile expense, and young people should be encouraged to do it now, while they have the time. More power to OP's son to take advantage of what sounds like a good opportunity. He sounds like a good kid.</p>