Son trying to decide between KP & SUNY Maritime

Colleges and Universities A-Z Merchant Marine Academy - Kings Point
21

<p>@2011midshipman: So let me understand your post - you state “I believe the options coming out of this school [USMMA] are greater in number and value than any other college or academy.” Yet because ramrela’s so at age 16 - 20 (I don’t know the man or his son but I suppose based on the other posts he’'s made he’s a “normal” entering college age.) believes right now he “wishes to be a captain and make sailing his profession, I [2011midshipman] don’t believe that going to SUNY would hamper this.” and because you are generally depressed and you believe the majority of USMMA midshipmen are not happy - something I’ll give you given years of polling data - you are recommending that as long as money isn’t an issue ramela recommend his son basically go to SUNY-MC over USMMA. </p>

<p>One or two questions come to mind -</p>

<p>If ramela’s son didn’t want to become a ship’s master where would you recommend he go - from your post my guess would be anywhere else besides KP so he could have “an enjoyable college experience” … if that was important to the young man - is my guess correct?</p>

<p>Putting aside the fact I’m always amazed at how many upperclassmen as well as my fellow alumni (you should talk to some guys in the Class of '74 whose whining and unhappiness seems to have somehow continued for over 30 years following graduation) that say things like you did “I’m a senior at KP and have great pride in this institution.” to open their statement then follow with some sort of "however and a rehash of all sorts of grievances about their time at KP … I can tell you I never understand how you have great pride in an institution and then go about publically slamming it and recommending someone not go there, especially when their professed initial career choice is the primary purpose for the existance of the USMMA. But as I said putting that aside …</p>

<p>Let me ask you this since as you say and believe “the options coming out of this school are greater in number and value than any other college or academy.” Are you then saying the converse that in your opinion, for you as an individual, in retrospect, you would rather have had an “enjoyable college experience” raher than the options and opportunities you will have upon graduation in June and what will likely be, in this current economy, an easier more fun initial five years following graduation? If the answer to that question is yes, then I understand your post and recommendation. If the answer is no, then I don’t understand why you’d think that ramela would want to make sure his son has fun in college, at the expense of him getting a better set of options and opportunities on graduation day.</p>

<p>As I’ve said before, to me, the answer is USMMA, I wouldn’t trade my KP experience, either while at the Academy or during any of my 28 years following graduation for any other Service Academy or Maritime Academy experience and degree. That said, they are all good schools and all have their pluses and minuses, and as you point out a big minus at USMMA is and it seems always has been the food is the worst, various aspects of the bureacracey and regimental life were things I didn’t enjoy when I was there either, and the list could go on. The lifelong friendships; the learning what common bonds having a common sense of purpose, could enable myself and those around me to achieve; the “real sea year experience” - what I learned and the places I visited; those things and many others, for me have almost always, including when I was at USMMA, made the negatives more than tolerable. No place in the world is perfect, and the truth is sure there were times for me, as there are for every USMMA Midshipman, that being “at KP” is no fun at all and even times when it “stinks”. However, I can honestly say that over the past 28+ years, as you allude to it, there has never been a time when being from KP hasn’t been a positive thing, so that’s why I really don’t understand your recommendation/advice here, it just seems oxymoronic to me.</p>

22

<p>jasperdog, I believe the overall focus of 2011midshipman was to help ramrela’s son organize his thinking and set his priorities. By putting himself in ramrela’s son’s shoes, he was providing rational and intuitive guidance to his decision-making process. The issues discussed are part of the concerns and feelings that all students consider when making a college decision, even though some concerns should be ranked higher than others. To that extent, 2011midshipman was fulfilling the purpose of this forum and assisting ramrela’s son as well as the other readers of College Confidential.</p>

23

<p>All it comes down to is sea year, SUNY is spent on a ship with hundreds of other cadets while KP is spent on a working commercial chip with two cadets 1 engine 1 deck. So if you son wants to graduate and be as competent as possible at sea then KP is the answer. (Info from numerous ship Captains from SUNY, KP, and Texas)</p>

24

<p>@jasperdog</p>

<p>Yes I am recommending that as long as money isn’t an issue, ramela’s son should go to SUNY or another maritime college over KP if he wishes to have an enjoyable college experience (as enjoyable as a maritime college can be).</p>

<p>If ramela’s son didn’t want to enter the maritime field I would recommend he go to any other normal college in the United States. So yes, your guess is correct.</p>

<p>I’d like to address the part you put aside. While the primary purpose for USMMA is to graduate maritime officers, I believe it has strayed from that purpose. This contributes to my frustration while at KP; it feels like we don’t have a clear direction. However, as in any other part of life, pride is generated from overcoming difficulty among other things. Why do people hike Mount Everest? Probably because it’s the hardest mountain to hike and conquering it results in great pride.
If I could go to ASU and graduate with the same opportunities as graduating from KP will give me, I would. This doesn’t mean that I would have actually rather attended ASU in reality. </p>

<p>I would say that with the goal of sailing as a career, KP isn’t necessary. To become a ship’s master, any of the maritime colleges will do. With this in mind, the time spent in school should weigh heavily in the decision; in my opinion.</p>

25

<p>I’m going to have to weigh in here. Jasperdog, Kingspoint95, I value your posts and respect your experience. But I think we should all take a good look at what 2011midshipman is saying here. </p>

<p>My DS is a Plebe now (class of 2014). He is proud of what he’s doing and he’s focused on academics and regiment as he should be. But in SEVERAL of our Sunday afternoon phone-conversations he’s mentioned that NO-ONE at KP is happy. I’ve questioned him on it and he insists that even the upper classmen, company officers and regimental officers are all miserable. That thought bothers him a bit, and therefore - it bothers me. I still consider myself new to this whole experience so I would never question Jasperdog or Kingpoint95 - but I have to quietly ask myself if the regimental life-style HAS to be so miserable? Kings Point always insists that the focus is NOT on churning out military officers but rather on churning out merchant mariners. Why then does the regimental lifestyle have to be so pervasive?</p>

<p>I understand there is a reason for the regiment and that discipline is essential. But shouldn’t upper classmen get more priveledges and more freedom than they do - and shouldn’t the plebes and third classmen see that there is an end to their misery? They spend a year in the “real world” and find out that it isn’t so regimented. Then they have to come back to campus and reaclimate to life in hell.</p>

<p>Again, I’m no expert on this - but I recognize 2011midshipman’s post as a glimpse into life at Kings Point right now. Maybe it wasn’t quite that way for Jasperdog or Kingspoint95? I don’t know. But dare I suggest that we ought to start paying attention to these posts if we want to continue to attract the best and the brightest in the future?</p>

26

<p>@2011Midshipman & ttownduo:</p>

<p>1) In the end to me it comes down to 2011Midshipman’s own statement: “If I could go to ASU and graduate with the same opportunities as graduating from KP will give me, I would. This doesn’t mean that I would have actually rather attended ASU in reality.” So which is it 2011Midshipman, if you had it to do over and could have had a “normal, fun college experience” and be graduating from ASU this spring or go to KP - which would you do? Sounds like you are saying you’d rather be graduating from USMMA since you’ll have better opportunities.</p>

<p>Part of the reasons that while you are there “KPS” are also many of the reasons you’ll have those broader opportunities - agreed?</p>

<p>So going to 2011Midshipman’s final statement: “I would say that with the goal of sailing as a career, KP isn’t necessary. To become a ship’s master, any of the maritime colleges will do. With this in mind, the time spent in school should weigh heavily in the decision; in my opinion.” Given that most of my classmates from KP and contemporaries from SUNY-MC who stuck it through and sailed Master or Chief Engineer are now retired from their sea-going careers with 25+ years at sea, who do you think as a group again generally have a broader array of opportunities available to them? If you picked USMMA, I think you’d again be correct - that’s tied to the network of alumni they are part of and the fact that the USMMA ALumni are generally in a broader spectrum of industries than the SUNY-MC alumni. That’s not to say that in 95+% of the cases the graduates from both institutions do very well, whether they sailed through Master/CE or not. At the time I attended USMMA - both were, and I believe still are, very good schools.</p>

<p>My final points on this topic:
A) No doubt about it, USMMA is a great place to be a graduate from, and often a less than fun place to be at. I don’t think that’s changed much at all since I was there. I see and hear a lot of the same complaints voiced here from my DS who is at USMMA now, but he has not considered leaving it since Thanksgiving Break of his Plebe year.
B) The independance a young man or woman derives from NOT having their parents pay for their college education contributes greatly to their development as young adults, IMO, and is yet another reason why KP grads do better than most - the entire experience generally yields a much more mature early 20’s person than 4+ years at a “normal college/university”, again IMHO but also an opinion shared by many employers. Another part of that maturity is because they’ve worked through that whole “KPS” thing and reached a significant milestone/goal in their life. Many other 20 somethings have not.
C) RE: ttownduo’s comments:
i) “Kings Point always insists that the focus is NOT on churning out military officers but rather on churning out merchant mariners. Why then does the regimental lifestyle have to be so pervasive?” It’s true that a career as a merchant marinier is NOT a military career but on every ship there is a Master and his word pretty much is law, and for deck officers standing bridge watches are one of two primary duties - the other being cargo operations or ship ops - in tht case, the regimental system teaches you how to deal with the routine and still pay attenntion to even the most mundane details … The fact is that every Maritime Academy has a regimental system of some sort because it’s felt to be of value to the general training program.
ii)RE: “But shouldn’t upper classmen get more priveledges and more freedom than they do - and shouldn’t the plebes and third classmen see that there is an end to their misery? …
I don’t know. But dare I suggest that we ought to start paying attention to these posts if we want to continue to attract the best and the brightest in the future?”</p>

<p>The basic fact is that USMMA has not had a hard time attracting more than enough high quality prospective students, ever. Why would it - it is an excellent education that is essentially entirely free and that leads to some of the best opportunities someone can have with only a four year degree. The issue isn’t attracting the best and brightest - it’s graduating the best and brightest in a manner that positions them to continue to excel. Some of that will continue to mean that while they are there many midshipmen are unhappy on a none too infrequent basis, again that hasn’t changed in 30+ years and each year’s entering Class is considered Highly Selective or similarly rated, and each year at the start of Indoctrination there are no available spots going unused.</p>

<p>iii) RE: the statement “But in SEVERAL of our Sunday afternoon phone-conversations he’s mentioned that NO-ONE at KP is happy. I’ve questioned him on it and he insists that …” Seriously? I have hard time reacting let alone buying into a sweeping generality like that … Several very sarcastic, but funny, diatribes from several comedy movies come to mind. Sorry - I just think that many, many college students, at times, take themselves and the immediate situation they are in just way too seriously. It hasn’t changed all that much since “back in the day”- seriously I know that from first hand seeing it. I’ll grant: trimesters are harder than quarters; and the current sea year is less enjoyable than the more evenly split sea year/third class and second class years we had, but overall the things the current regiment is complaining about aren’t really much different at all than 30 years ago, they are just better able to more frequuently voice their displeasure to large audiences using todays technology.</p>

<p>This next statement/opinion will proably move me into the catagory of A$$ in some folks minds but hey as Frank Sinatra said “I Gotta Be Me.” As an Alumni, frankly, I’m much more concerned that the quality of the graduates continue to be grat and continue to get even better. That’s what will make or break the reputation of my Alma Mater, IMO. Not whether the food in Delano stinks, or the student body wants to wallow in self pity while they answer their Princton or USN&WR surveys and get classified as the most unhappy student body or not whther the Plebe Class or Third Class can “see that there is an end to their misery” I could write a volume on that last one but I’ve already spent too many bytes on this…</p>

<p>I’m not saying things can’t and should be improved - I’m a Six Sigma Kinda Guy and I believe in continuous improvement. That said perhaps the most valuable thing I learned over four years at KP or at least started to lean was how to be happy or at least take some joy in things without being content or satisfied - think about that one - so it’s not at all unsurprising to me that the Plebes and Third Classmen are probably even less happy than the 2nd or 1st classmen. Also I’m told that at least in the case of the 2nd and 3rd Class that more privleges have been granted/restored to at or above Pre-Worley levels and I support and agree with that.</p>

27

<p>I graduated from west point a few years ago and couldnt help but read some of the posts here. I have seen quite a few comments about choosing an academy or having a good college experience. To a future academy graduate, College is not about having fun or expressing yourself. College is about preparing to lead Soldiers in a mission down a dirty, nasty road in Afghanistan or Iraq. If your son wants to come to any academy (b/c now they send Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard to both sand boxes) they need to understand that being able to lead troops in combat is the underlying goal. I dont need to get a brand new lieutenant who went to an academy for the education. I need an officer who lead his platoon and get the job done. Dont get me wrong the education is great and I am glad for it because after spending 30 months of the past 47 months deployed, I’m getting out. Bottomline is that if you want to come to a military academy that they show up on the first day with no regrets or reservations.</p>

28

<p>@jasperdog</p>

<p>If I had to do it over again I would still go to KP; the opportunities coming out are too great to justify going anywhere else. I believe KP is the way to go if you don’t want to sail the rest of your life. I was giving advice based on the assumption that the kid would sail and retire; basically as being a captain is all he would want to do. I agree we come out much more mature than our peers (because of the bs we have to put up with). I believe a regimental system is necessary to train merchant marine officers, but the way they run it here is absolutely absurd. As a human being, I am happy; as a college student, I am not.</p>

<p>@ballinemt</p>

<p>KP is a federal service academy, not a military academy.</p>

29

<p>I must say I was surprised to read your statement…</p>

<p>“But in SEVERAL of our Sunday afternoon phone-conversations he’s mentioned that NO-ONE at KP is happy. I’ve questioned him on it and he insists that even the upper classmen, company officers and regimental officers are all miserable.”</p>

<p>I just spoke to my DS and I can tell you he was upbeat and positive even with the amount of tests and assignments he has had this week. Not to mention Track workouts, weightlifting, regiment, etc. in fact, he sounded quite happy. I know he is very thankful for his opportunity to be at KP so maybe he just has the wisdom to accept his situation for what it is and not let it get to him too much. I am not saying he is always like this, he has some rough days, but for the most part he is happy to be there and he is not miserable at all. I wish you and your son the best.</p>

30

<p>KPmom11, you make an excellent point about your son’s upbeat attitude.</p>

<p>The emphasis on happiness in choosing a college may be misplaced. While I do not dispute the unhappiness factor revealed in the Princeton Review, USMMA is in good company including another SUNY school, Coast Guard, and Navy which all rank in the top 10 colleges in terms of unhappiness. When talking with my son and his fellow midshipmen, they accurately and realistically assessed the school’s shortcomings and contradictions, but kept a positive, upbeat, forward-looking attitude. As the Apostle Paul said, “We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed…Therefore, we do not lose heart.” </p>

<p>Happiness is a state of mind which they learned to control even as they recognized the school was less than perfect. </p>

<p>As Rudyard Kipling said, “IF you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you…Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it, and–which is more–you’ll be a Man, my son!”</p>

<p>As the midshipmen go forward in their careers, either ashore or at sea, they will encounter less than ideal working conditions and less than perfect bosses. If they focus on their goals and not their unhappiness, they will be more likely succeed. If they focus on their unhappiness, they will make themselves miserable and be tempted to blame poor circumstances rather than themselves in the event of their failure.</p>

31

<p>I graduated from Maritime in '82 and went into the USN (ROTC) immediately following school. I went into the nuclear pipeline and served on a fast attack out of Groton CT. After a shore tour I left the service and now work in the civilian nuclear power industry.</p>

<p>While in the Navy and in my current position I have had the opportunity to work with a great variety of graduates from KP the Naval Academy and the various State Maritime schools. What I have learned is that they all produce many outstanding graduates and sometimes a first rate zero (including Maritime). There are many I went to school with whom I would still without question trust with my life. There are others whom I would not trust with watching my grass grow. This is also the case with graduates of all of the schools I have mentioned. What you learn in life is not to simply accept the “label” of this or that school. Nobody is going to really care where you went to school. All they are going to care about is that you can get the job done and will do it honestly and to the best of your ability. In the military I would also add not get your crew and yourself killed because you’re incompetent. To that end any leadership experience should at least train you in the basics. With regard to “KP not being a happy campus” it is interesting to note that many of my classmates who “hated every second of college” have recently looked back on the experience as a very valuable one and in the end well worth the four year sacrifice. In fact many have become staunch supporters of a military education!</p>

<p>As far as which school to pick IMHO I would visit both, talk to the students and faculty then make the call which is just what I told my children when they were looking at schools. Each has its plusses and minuses. It really depend on the student as far as which would fit best. Good luck wherever your DS winds up.</p>

32

<p>re you serious, there should be now question, SUNY is a state school. USMMA is a federal service academy that requires a congressional nomination and a complete resume to even be considered. If you son is questioning which school, he has already made his mind up. Good luck at SUNY </p>

<p>Go to SUNY and enjoy the State school system and give a qualified candidate a chance at excellence at KP!</p>

33

<p>I suggest anyone who is interested in USMMA read up about their recent disgraceful internal problems and the proposal for termination as a college on the forum at [gCaptain</a> - Maritime & Offshore](<a href=“http://www.gcaptain.com%5DgCaptain”>http://www.gcaptain.com). Even alumni from KP want it shut down…</p>

34

<p>To express ShooterMcGavin’s advice More accurately: anyone interested in getting utterly flamed and abused for even experessing an interest in USMMA should check out gcaptain. Personally though, if you actually wanted to have something approaching a rational discussion with reasonable people who don’t allow their personal bias and agenda to color everything they do and who don’t spew invective with every post at those who might have a different opinion- then I would cross that fountain of misinformation off your list of web sites.</p>

35

<p>ShooterMcGavin sounds like a disgruntled soul… I wonder why he spends so much time trying to undermine KP instead of singing the praises of his own alma mater? I work budget matters for the Department of Defense - USMMA isn’t going anywhere (that is to say - it isn’t in jeopardy of closing). Even in these tough times, KP is getting plussed up above their budget baseline to address the capital improvements program. Professors are paid top dollar and student candidate profiles are much higher than the national average, on par with the other Federal Academies (which is to say, far higher than other similar institutions).
I’ll admit, if a candidate is looking for an easy ride, they should look elsewhere. KP is not unnecessarily tough. There are plenty of colleges and universities who go out of their way to make students unhappy for some tribute to pride (see private military colleges). KP is tough because the course load is incredibly demanding and KP has not sacrificed its standards in light of what many would say is academic kowtowing to the “entitlement generation” and an overprotective parents lobby. KP is, what it is… Four years of top notch university level education, plus USCG licensing, plus all the Navy’s requirements for a commission - PACKED INTO THREE YEARS… With one year at sea.
I did it. It sucked. I’d do it again, in a heartbeat. Everything I have, and everything I am, I owe to KP…<br>
It hurts a great deal to see KP suffer like it has over this last two years. Petty politics in MARAD (and KP). But, I think we have turned the corner. Congress is watching what is going on pretty closely and I am confident the Academy is on the right track.
So, for any candidate out there. Make your choice based on your wants and desires, on your personality. DON’T apply to KP because it is free! That argument does not work - the freebee candidates don’t make it through Indoc. Talk to as many people as you can. I’ve worked with great folks from USNA and State Maritime Academies - they all have something to contribute. I will say this though… When you read the statements of those bashing KP - note that not one of them went there. If you go to their own forums (provided they have one), you will see all sorts of internal bashing. Don’t take part in it. Shooter has undermined his credibility with simple jabs that don’t really amount to anything other than an inferiority complex.</p>

36

<p>KPS1998 is obviously someone who knows what he is talking about. KP is an excellent school, one of the best in the country and that comes from a Maritime College Alum. It is definitely more structured with regard to military requirements than Maritime College, especially now that the Maritime allows “non-regimental students” to opt out of the license program and attend the school. If you feel that you would excel in that type of environment then it is the place for you. If not I would consider other options less you wind up very unhappy. I believe those attending KP would agree with what we used to say at Maritime. That being “it sucks to go here but it sure is great to be from here." So many of my fellow classmates who HATEDTHE COLLEGE, HATED THE REGIMANT, etc. have come to realize with time that it was well worth the four years invested. If you look at the unbelievable options you have, cited above in KPS1998’s excellent post, then it is worth the effort.</p>

37

<p>Disgruntled soul eh? Well let’s look at this closely…</p>

<p>Kings Point’s regiment is NOT structured any differently than any other regiment in the federal system OR the state schools. This comes not as an opinion, but actual testimony from cadets at these colleges. The days of 4th class year at ANY of these schools actually being a rite of passage has long since disappeared with the coming of age of lawsuits and complaints from the general public. Each of the five federal service academies and the state schools have toned it way back… so to attempt to pull rank in that area is ludicrous. I twice visited KP, once with a USNR Lt. classmate who needed to hit the Navy Exchange, and guess what? Only ONE cadet knew to salute him. Indeed, they are so much better than the rest!</p>

<p>The non-regimental system at SUNY Maritime College was fought against long and hard by the alumni associations and the regiment itself. The problem is that when the SUNY Chancellor and the higher ups kissing ass decide to implement the program to create diversity where none is needed, they forced the square peg into the round hole. And when was the last time you ever saw one of them become anything in the industry? I guarantee you have never even met one in your line of work, unless you invent one for the sake of your argument. </p>

<p>I’ve sailed with officers from all of the maritime academies, we all passed the SAME license exam, therefore we were all just as qualified as the next man or woman to be standing on the bridge or at the control room. No leg ups on one another. Period. </p>

<p>Inferiority complex? The recent accusations stemming from KP are their own doing… they are not the creation nor the echoes of a man undermining a college which does the same exact thing as the six state colleges.</p>