Soo tired of this affirmative action bs!!!

Chance Me / Match Me!
81

<p>nicsagenius, I read thru lots of this thread. For whatever it is worth, I am a white guy and grad student. I believe you have a point, but I wouldn’t have put my point forward the way you did though…</p>

<p>Anyway, I thought you might be interested in this link below from the “Ask the Dean” topics on CC. She basically agrees with you…</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/ask-dean-topics/714438-should-chinese-ivy-applicant-skip-ethnicity-question.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/ask-dean-topics/714438-should-chinese-ivy-applicant-skip-ethnicity-question.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I will say that these universities, especially the private ones, have the right to make decisions that may put a lower emphasis on test scores and look at types of diversity such as race or location in the US. Do I think this hurts society? I wish I knew. It a very deeply complicated subject.</p>

<p>I will say that there may be ways for Asians or even white guys like me to take advantage of university’s desire for diversity. For example, I went to a really good private liberal arts school. It was a white place that really wanted to be more diverse. I’d actually think an Asian would have an leg up getting in there. I think this may be true for many of the top liberal arts schools in the US. You can also apply to schools far away from where you live and have a better chance of getting in. For example, a guy from Minnesota who wants to go to Williams, or a guy from Massachusetts who wants to go to Carleton would have a much better chance of getting in.</p>

82

<p>I don’t have a strong opinion on this one way or the other. But I will point out, that with the current presidential administration, which is likely to be around for quite a while, and make several Supreme Court appointments, AA is likely to be around for a good long while, and probably get more prevalent, not less. Look at the controversies surrounding Judge Sotomayor. A lot of universities are already looking to eliminate the standardized tests in favor of a more “holistic” approach, whatever that means. And no court is going to stop them from doing whatever they want. Since President Obama was overwhelmingly supported by the young people of this country, I’ve got to assume that in general affirmative action is not a problem with most of them.</p>

83

<p>So you’re saying that, if Obama weren’t black, people would’ve gone for John McCain? </p>

<p>Oh my golly!</p>

84

<p>I think what bovertine meant was that the majority of young people in the country right now support Obama, and people who would support Obama (progressives, democrats, etc.) are likely to support AA. At least I hope that’s what he meant.</p>

85

<p>I think the biggest problem with AA on these boards is that people think elite institutions and high-level institutions exist to accept only the most academically advanced student. This is NOT true. Public institutions and institutions focused on increasing their rank ore very interested in the most academically advanced, statistically high level students as possible. Top colleges and universities do not want merely the “best” academic students. They clearly admit this when they say they have holistic admissions (and act on it!). The goal of these colleges is NOT to enroll a freshman class with high statistics. These colleges and universities take into account many aspects of a student’s application as they attempt to craft WHAT THEY DEEM a perfect entering class.</p>

<p>I think it’s worth repeating, one more time, that getting into top colleges and universities is NOT about academic statistics. Yes, academic statistics can be very important. But elite institutions are not choosing the best “academically qualified” students. They are, on their own accord, choosing students who they feel are the best students for their freshman class.</p>

<p>Here’s a link to information on the SAT that illustrates that African American students score much lower on the SAT than white or Asian students. I don’t know what’s causing it or why, but here are the facts.</p>

<p><a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/sat_percentile_ranks_2008_cr_m_w_gender_ethnic_groups.pdf[/url]”>http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/sat_percentile_ranks_2008_cr_m_w_gender_ethnic_groups.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Now, imagine that Affirmative Action was socioeconomically based. People would still hate it. The people on this very board may still hate it. The middle class, I’ve found, often feels victimized. Affirmative Action that is socioeconomically based would give an advantage to poor students, just like AA now gives an advantage to URMs. Many people feel that where there is an advantage, there is also a disadvantage. Therefore, the middle class would feel shafted. Not only would the middle class students not have an advantage during admissions (though they wouldn’t be disadvantaged - not having an advantage does not = having a disadvantage), they would probably have to pay more than they are now, since colleges and universities would except even more no-pay or low-pay students. So we’d be having this same conversation, except it would be based on class and not race.</p>

<p>No matter what kind of Affirmative Action exists, someone is going to feel “jipped”. They may even rightfully be “jipped”.</p>

86

<p>^^^terranova was extremely easy from what i remember, like so simple it didnt need to be taught(it showed like a huge triangle, with sub-triangles. Some were colored, Q=count how many are colored. There were also simple sequences) . I only took it up to 6th grade tho. </p>

<p>But i agree with #56. Seriously, you want to be equal give up AA. There is no valid statement to why race should make a student more/less apt. Culture can influence that(asian parents). But, thats no reason to make it help urms. </p>

<p>Can any1 find the official document for AA? I believe it was a court case, not sure tho</p>

87

<p>"So you’re saying that, if Obama weren’t black, people would’ve gone for John McCain?</p>

<p>Oh my golly!" </p>

<p>yes, and if hillary wasn’t a woman, it would have been john edwards v mccain in 08, assuming his affair didnt go public</p>

88

<p>Also,</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/firstyearenrolls.html]JBHE[/url”>http://www.jbhe.com/firstyearenrolls.html]JBHE[/url</a>]</p>

<p>I’m not the best at interpretating data, but this might be an interesting chart. But we’d have to see other charts for a point of comparison.</p>

<p>The terranova might seem easy to YOU, but I bet a LOT of kids failed. That, or students had failed so many times they made it easy. Our high school assessments and Maryland State Assessments, here in Maryland, were what I felt to be unreasonably easy. I mean, I figured they were easy for even state standardized tests. But man oh man, our fail or “basic” rates are VERY high.</p>

89

<p>At least in socioeconomic AA, advantages are, for the most part, fair. The only reason racial AA is at times fair is simply because there are quite a few of these African-Americans with poor socioeconomic statuses. A rich African-American is receiving benefits that they really do not deserve. Remember, the socioeconomic status, for the most part, tend to equate to how much opportunities are given.</p>

90

<p>

</p>

<p>I completely agree. I’m all for socioeconomic AA. But if a poor student who was “less academically qualified” than students like the OP got into UChicago or comparable schools, do you think the debate would be any different?</p>

91

<p>“But i agree with #56. Seriously, you want to be equal give up AA. There is no valid statement to why race should make a student more/less apt. Culture can influence that(asian parents). But, thats no reason to make it help urms.” </p>

<p>Read The Outliers, by Malcolm Gladwell. He talks about how our “legacies”, a euphimism for race/ethnicity, DO influence our actions. I agree, though, that AA shouldn’t be practiced as it only serves to perpetuate racism/mediocrity.</p>

92

<p>My 2 cents on AA:</p>

<p>Ok, well first of all let me say that at ONE time affirmative action was a GOOD thing. I mean back in the days when minorities were fighting for equal rights and were condemned to poverty. Basically, any fair minded person who sees the oppressions spawned by the Jim Crow laws, Zooni Suits riots (ya I spelled it wrong w/e), and Indian Removal Policies would prbly agree. However, most this stuff happened much earlier than the 1960s, when Nixon introduced AA. Still, I can understand that certain races needed to be lifted out of poverty and AA helped solve this. At the same time, internment camps and the Chinese Exclusion Acts were all utilized by America to hurt Asians too…so ya AA is hurting a race that American actually was attacking. Regardless, AA did help and was needed.</p>

<p>Today, it is insane to still use AA. I mean slavery and the like was over 100 years ago and race relations have improved greatly. The Asians have sure thrived in America despite anti-Asian policy that the US introduced as late as the 1930s. Now, America’s educational system is not #1 and part of that is because our finest universities are accepting sub-par minorities to fill these worthless racial quotas. I am sorry but if you are an Indian or African American and have a middle class background you should have ABSOLUTELY no advantage against a middle class White/Asian applicant (I do believe in “income-based” AA). </p>

<p>Look at the arguments for Pro-AA ppl. The best arguments they have are “we need diversity in the classrooms” and “you horrible whites simply don’t understand that certain races do not have the same values as you Asians/White.” </p>

<p>Point 1 is dumb. I mean ya diversity isnt bad, but it should only be a bonus in the classroom. Diversity is not necessary for success (at times it can both catalyze and inhibit it too), so why should colleges care about have all these races in the class room. </p>

<p>Point 2 is about as racist as present day AA. The characterization of any one race is racist in itself. Colleges should look at a person’s individual circumstances and not assume that a person doesnt care about an education/has learning barriers because they are race X.</p>

<p>So ya…I really do not see any value in present day AA.</p>

93

<p>mostor344’s table is fascinating for what it tells us, comparing overall v black acceptance rates. </p>

<p>harv, yale, stanford, duke, columbia, dartmouth, princeton, umich don’t report acceptance rates for black students. understandable at umich what with their scotus case. understandable at the rest because these are likely the schools most prestigious and where AA would be most sensitive </p>

<p>but some top schools have a LOWER accept rate for black students than overall:
emory, berkely, wash u, wake forest, usc, ucla – interesting that none are on the northeast </p>

<p>the schools where the black aceptance rates are notably higher:
mit, penn, u chicago, brown, georgetown, CMU, tufts, brown, georgetown, virginia </p>

<p>BUT… there are schools where the acceptance rates are pretty close:
north carolina, cornell, johns hopkins, rice, vandebilt</p>

<p>i look at this geographically and notice that 4 out of 5 schools where blacks have not statistical advantge are located in the south (and yes, md. is the south–a slave state, though not in the confederacy). they probably have a reason to take AA seriously too, yet don’t statistically “overadmit” black students. elsewhere in the south, virginia and georgetown do. (yes, D.C., wedged between Md and VA is still a very southern town)</p>

<p>i suspsect that those southern schools where the black admit rate is lower have made little effort toward outreach to black students nationally or somehow have something about them that turns off black applicants. cannot tell this because the tble does not have overall yeild rates. </p>

<p>i guess there is something her for everyone, top unis where its statistically tougher for black kids, where its the same, where its easier. </p>

<p>and as for economic v racial AA, that not a good idea because a)most schools dont have the money for it in terms of financial aid and b)there are still so many more poor whites (a lesser share of white poulation, however) thanpoo blacks, that it would likely result in a dimunution of black students and c) as somone else pointed out, many middle class families would be upset, just as they’re upset over ANY aid to the poor, whom the often see as “undeserving”</p>

94

<p>

You have it backwards. Our k12 sucks, but our universities are the best in the world, and actually improve the international reputation of our educational system.</p>

95

<p>

</p>

<p>The first point is fine. I much prefer geographic, ethnic, cultural, and socioeconomic diversity to racial diversity. On the other hand… Well, the second point is partially true. Stereotyping doesn’t do anyone any good, but stereotypes usually stem from truth. Black students are MORE LIKELY to be born into intellectually-apathetic families. Asian students are MORE LIKELY to be born into an academic pressure gasket. White students have equal chances of just about anything.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I think it’s important to understand that our finest universities are not merely excepting the most statistically-advanced students. Our finest universities are accepting classes that are unique and interesting for any number of reasons, well before they are filling in any “requirements”. Again, the purpose of our finest institutions is NOT to accept the most statistically-advanced students. This is why thousands of valedcitorians and 2400s get rejected every year. This means the minorities are not “sub par”, unless you are implying racism, which I doubt (I hope…?).</p>

<p>One more time: admissions to the top universities is NOT NUMBERS BASED. It is holistic. Top universities are NOT filling their classes with only the most academically advanced students. Many students of every creed bump out valedictorians, 2400s, etc. There are MANY factors, and considering the highly advanced applicant pool, statistics - like GPA, SAT scores, ACT scores, etc. - are not as important as other factors.</p>

96

<p>“This is why thousands of valedcitorians and 2400s get rejected every year.”</p>

<p>Not to nitpick, but there are less than 250 people per year who earn a 2400 :slight_smile: and I’m sure far less of them are valedictorians.</p>

97

<p>There are also not “millions” ( as the OP opined ) of “African Americans” “taking peoples spots”. It’s actually a relatively small number we’re talking about.</p>

98

<p>Well, there are tens of thousands of vals a year, so that part is true.</p>

99

<p>It may not seem fair, but life isn’t fair. I know that the original poster did not get in to his college of his choice, but keep on going…at the end of the day, its about you, not what skin color you are.</p>

<p>However, I do have to give a quote I heard from someone about affirmative action:
People today are punished for the actions of the people in the past.</p>

100

<p>

</p>

<p>I didn’t mean both at the same time. 2400s and (but separately of) valedictorians, as well as numerous 4.0s and probably national contest winners.</p>