<p>MomofWildChild: Yes, but the percentage of kids who get into the highly selective schools is still small, isn't it? From our large, public high school, there were about 8 kids who got into Ivies out of a class of around 470. That's only 1.7%. Not that common as far as the people one encounters around town on a given day.</p>
<p>MOWC, talking about Interlochen, thank you very much by the way for help choosing summer programs for our daughter. She spent 6 weeks at Interlochen pursuing her passion in vocal music and came back saying it was the best summer of her life. A big factor in our selecting Interlochen was the outdoor ambiance and the fact that she would end up "getting some air". </p>
<p>Our daughter is not into sports but loves the outdoors and physical activity. One of our happiest vacations was spent hiking among the Canadian Rockies. The reason I say this is that it is possible to live a balanced, physically active life and be socially well-adjusted even without being into sports.</p>
<p>Also, even at our rural public school, not a single student in the top 10 ONLY does academics. In D1's year, the students who excelled academically were heavily involved in sports and many as well in music. In D2's year, the val was an art student and the sal went into musical theater. This past year, the val was a very gifted jazz musician, the sal was very involved in international issues, as well as music, and another top kid in the class was a star soccer player. NONE of the kids in the hardest track classes only did academics. In fact, I venture to say that every kid in our music program just about were also the best students in the school....the ones in the hardest classes. The kids who were the least engaged in ECs were the ones who were not such good students, many of whom will also never attend college. Just relating what goes on in my community where few even go to elite colleges in the first place. A couple do per year. Many top students also go onto the state U which is a good state U as well and get into the Honors college....the kids I know who did that were top soccer players, leads in the musicals, state orchestra players, and the like. They were tops in both academics and at least one other area. I have met very few top students in our local school who only do academics. As well, at my kids' selective universities, I haven't yet met a kid who only does academics. </p>
<p>I am not knocking those who only do academics at all. I am simply providing my observations in response to the OP's assertions. It was the OP who put down those who do sports (let alone that such students had to compromise academics). To the contrary, I have not put down any other ECs nor those who are "presidents of clubs" as the OP D is (I said that was GREAT), nor those whose lives are only centered on academic pursuits. The world is made up of all types of people. None are "better" or "best."</p>
<p>Vicariousparent, my younger D gave up sports in middle school as her arts activities took over and too many conflicts. But as you say, like your D, she is still active physically. For one thing, she is heavily involved in dance which is also exercise. But even with a schedule at college that begins early in the AM and goes to close to midnight before homework kicks in, as well as involves many hours of required weekend commitments, she often gets up even earlier to work out at the gym or tries to squeeze in yoga classes on the weekends. So, even if one doesn't do formal sports, there are ways to be active. Her schedule is quite insane (but she LOVES it) and she was bemoaning that this week, with even additional commitments (when I thought there were no more waking hours for any??...she even performed recently at 2 AM!), that she wasn't sure how to fit in the gym and she doesn't want to go a week without the work outs as it helps with stamina and keeping fit. She really really cares about working out. When she gets to a yoga class on weekends, even on top of so many commitments she has on weekends, she says she squeezes it in as it is "for me." She wants the physical workouts, even though she also takes many dance classes during the week in school too.</p>
<p>I think GFG's situation is very high pressured & competitive. I remember her past posts about the pressure her freshman athlete was under to take AP physics. And that was expected of the bright kids, not just the super science oriented kids who had exhausted h.s. offerings in middle school, spent summers at CTY, etc. Her school district, like many in NJ, is uber competitive, and the definition of "excelling" is quite different from state to state, district to district. </p>
<p>I also believe her D is a runner. The cross country climate in northern Jersey is pretty cuthroat, as well. Kids don't just train over the summer on their own -- it's "mandatory" captain's practices starting the day school ends in June. It's not just your conditining and athleticism that count, it's your compliance (and your family's) with unreasonable demands that are also critical. The serious runners have the family's summers completely disrupted by these commitments. So in an environment such as GFG's, I believe "excelling" at many competitive interests is not very common. </p>
<p>Using my own D as an example, I could say she excels at lacrosse, as she is a top scorer on the varsity squad. Or excels at violin because she is the concertmaster of the h.s. orchestra. But her team is in a division set up for newer programs. She doesn't also play on a club team year round and travel to weekend tournaments all the time. If she were facing higher level defenders & outstanding goalies, who knows how much scoring she'd produce? She is a lovely violinist, but she doesn't practice four hours a day like truly committed kids in pre-Julliard type programs do. Who knows if she'd even make it through the first audition cuts in a more music-focused school?</p>
<p>Really, if an athlete isn't being recruited, I can't imagine admissions departments are going over stats with a fine tooth comb, looking for those who "excel." Aren't they just looking for evidence that a kid is involved & vibrant, not a bump on a log?</p>
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I think GFG's situation is very high pressured & competitive. I remember her past posts about the pressure her freshman athlete was under to take AP physics. And that was expected of the bright kids, not just the super science oriented kids who had exhausted h.s. offerings in middle school, spent summers at CTY, etc. Her school district, like many in NJ, is uber competitive, and the definition of "excelling" is quite different from state to state, district to district.
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<p>I think that's part of the problem right there. Why should middle school students be taking high school classes already? And if taking any, shouldn't it be one or two? I can't imagine people from my school taking all 10 science classes offered at the high school level and those students taking them in 6,7, and 8th grades.</p>
<p>We have two opposite groups here. Those that are all sports all the time. And then we have those who are all academic all the time. That's what our country is composed of. Sure we have arts people in there too probably in another group. But people seem to believe that we need to stuff classes down the kids' throats. It's no wonder there's burnout.</p>
<p>opie </p>
<p>I appreciate your point and I think everyone can benefit from fresh air and exercise, but not necessarily sports. What is stress-reducing for one kid may be stress-producing for another and I assure you that playing rugby would be a nightmare for my son. But he does go outside and excercise and I'd worry if he didn't. Maybe that's all you meant anyway.soozie</p>
<p>I suppose you mean top 10%? I'd agree with you that most students I know in the top 10% academically tend to also excel in one or 2 other areas. But isn't that still a pretty small group?</p>
<p>I agree, Hops. I think it's nuts to expect a 9th grader to take AP Physics as her first science course in h.s.! (Rare exceptions exist, of course.) </p>
<p>Crazy coaches, diva artistic directors, and stat-crazed administrators are sucking the fun out of high school.</p>
<p>^^@hops: maybe they want to take those high school classes ahead of time? Anyway, there should still be still time for sports, it's just that if someone wanted to train seriously (like year-round) then that would be hard for the hardcore academic. </p>
<p>People seem to be getting a bit defensive on this thread about whether their kid is a good person if they are not super-devoted to school. I don't think that is the OP's point. The point is that the elite schools are like the olympics for academics. I feel academic stars deserve to go to the elite schools just like the olympics should be the domain for amazing athletes. If you run a 11 sec. 100 meter and perform 100 hours of volunteer service, I still feel the 10 sec. guy should be going to the olympics. And if one academic star is <em>significantly</em> more talented than another academic star, then the first one should get in. That's just my opinion. I understand that it's not completely analagous, but I think it's just common sense that the more intellectually talented should have more choices for schools just like the most athletic should be able to choose which gym is suited for them. </p>
<p>You know, everyone's talking about how these hardcore students get burnout because there is so much pressure. Not getting into an elite school after performing brilliantly sometimes contributes to that burnout.</p>
<p>Hops, don't forget that anonymous forums such as these tend to attract people who create fantasy world for some unknown reason. If a particular post seems uber extraordinary, it is probably more fiction than fact. That is not to say that there are no extraordinary students/families residing here, probably just fewer than the posts suggest. And with few exceptions it is impossible to separate the two.</p>
<p>I know that none of the recent students in our town which have are attending HYP type colleges have extraordinary resumes. Yep, they are all very good students and a few are also very good athletes but there is nary a Westinghouse/Intel scholar or Parade All American athlete among them.</p>
<p>I think you're right, stickershock. What excellence means around here may be a little different than what it means elsewhere. With regard to running, our state champions are also sometimes national champions and national record-holders. In NJ, my D is a very good runner but not exceptional, yet her freshman track times would have won state championships in most other states. I recently read an interview with one of the top female x-c runners in NJ. She spoke of running between 60-75 miles a week in the summer. That's 20-35 miles more than our boys x-c team ran each week, so to excel here in any pursuit requires a good bit of time and effort. </p>
<p>But even so, to echo originaloog, of the 8 students I mentioned who got into Ivies from my S's class, none had national level accomplishments that I'm aware of and I can think of only one, a violinist, who had a state-level accomplishment. He made the state youth orchestra, but wasn't even the best. One student was also a ranked chess player I believe, but I don't know how high. But none were Westinghouse/Intel Scholars or All-Americans either.</p>
<p>Originaloog.....what does it matter to be the top athlete such a Parade All American athlete or the best in the nation? The point is that a youngster can excel in sports or some other EC endeavor and still care about academics which the OP seemed to think that in order to do these activities, one had to put academics lower on their list. Many kids do very well in academics and an area of passion, even if not the tops in the nation in that passion. The pursuit of that passion is still worthwhile. Who cares if it helps to get into college? My kids didn't care. They just wanted to do it and do it at the best of their ability. In fact, in order to be the tops in the nation in a sport, one would have to do just ONE sport pretty much. My own kid did not want to specialize and wanted to keep doing three seasonal sports, even if that meant just excelling regionally or in the state. She knew she could not go beyond that unless she chose to put all her EC eggs in one basket and she liked several areas and didn't want to do that. My other kid did want to do that. My older one was content being All States in Music or State team in sports and such. She knew there was no way to go beyond that in either her sports or the arts unless she focused on just one passion outside of academics. That was her choice. My point earlier is that there are kids who do well academically who also do very well in other endeavors even if they are not a national winner or some such. Also, where I live, few go onto elite colleges. But the top students all excel at something besides academics here. A couple go onto elite colleges but many don't necessarily aspire to those schools either. </p>
<p>Collegealum.....selective colleges do not necessarily look at admissions as you wrote that they "should." They can have two excellent talented academic students and one also excels in areas in addition to academics, and they may wish to take the latter student who will also contribute to their campus life, as well as in such things after college. They can get top academic kids who do both and so they don't have to necessarily accept students who only do academics and no other activities (I'm not counting those who actually do academically oriented activities like math team). They can get kids who do both. Top schools do not have to compromise on academic talent to get athletes, musicians, newspaper editors, political activist leaders, etc.</p>
<p>I thought I would share a note of cautious optimism for more fairness in the activities funding at my kid's h.s. </p>
<p>There has just been an electronic message to parents that the Science Olympiad will begin organizing again. WE have a new district superintendent who leaned hard on the h.s. principal to free up some money for the stipends for teachers who supervise the academic clubs. Money had been tight for them in recent years, and more so since a law outlawing the sale of soft drinks on campus took money away from the athletic budget and the h.s. administration siphoned all the activities fee dollars into athletics to cover the gap. The new supt apparently was appalled by the lack of support for the academic ECs and the disparity in spending. There's just no way it's okay for the entire activities budget to go to athletic budget needs, when athletics only serves about 1,000 students out of a 3,000-student school. Maybe soon they'll finally be able to get a Robotics- engineering club off the ground.</p>
<p>Jazzymom, that is great news.</p>
<p>"Find something sport, backpacking, etc.. to help clear their minds."</p>
<p>"I think everyone can benefit from fresh air and exercise, but not necessarily sports."</p>
<p>Bethivet, in case you missed that sentence in my post. Remember I advocate whatever floats the boat. I have found and observed there is a mental cleansing that occurrs when the body is active. </p>
<p>For myself and it turns out my S, rugby creates a balance. Don't knock it, as you never know. It is a sport played by all sizes, enjoyed around the world. Having the opportunity to play some internationally also improved my knowledge. So I was able to exercise my body and mind at the same time. Not to mention my liver and kidneys postmatch..;) </p>
<p>It doesn't have to be your buzz, maybe your's is kayaking or backpacking, both cool too. It just needs to be something that works the bod a bit. </p>
<p>What I have seen is alot of the locked in the room studying, interneting kids are experiencing health conditions in their 20's that people in their 50's experience. The generations growing up now may very well be the first to have mortality slide back to younger ages.</p>
<h2>Collegealum.....selective colleges do not necessarily look at admissions as you wrote that they "should." They can have two excellent talented academic students and one also excels in areas in addition to academics, and they may wish to take the latter student who will also contribute to their campus life, as well as in such things after college. They can get top academic kids who do both and so they don't have to necessarily accept students who only do academics and no other activities (I'm not counting those who actually do academically oriented activities like math team). They can get kids who do both. Top schools do not have to compromise on academic talent to get athletes, musicians, newspaper editors, political activist leaders, etc.</h2>
<p>Well, they do compromise on academic talent. Like, for instance, I heard of a guy who was an average student at a magnet school (which was fairly hard to get into) but he was drafted by the Pittsburgh Pirates. He got in everywhere. Yes, I understand the logic of recruiting for people who contribute to campus life, but I feel the potential contributions of more academically-oriented people are underestimated. Also, you're right--most academic stars do something else--I'm just saying it's very rare for them to be devoted to sports enough to be a recruited athlete.</p>
<p>jazzymom, Congratulations, and I hope the progress continues. Our school district still does not provide any coaching stipend for Science Olympiad, traveling math team, or robotics, but it did agree to fund a trip to the nationals for HALF of the Quiz Bowl team this year.</p>
<p>opie</p>
<p>Yeah, I missed that sentence..and I'm not knocking any sport. I'm sure rugby is great for some people. I do think most of us are spending too much time sitting in front of computers, myself included. Think I'll go for a walk.</p>
<p>Collegealum...my own kid was not recruited to her college but is on a varsity team. Her academics at high school were as high as it goes here. Some of her teammates at college were recruited and they are also top students who excel in academics...both in HS and college and some are applicants to med school as well. The athletes I have met at her college are no slouches on the academic front. Some even went to elite prep schools (my child didn't, however). I think the highly selective schools do not compromise on the academic front to get students to field their teams, fill their concert halls, run their newspapers, run their community service groups, head the student government and grace their theatrical stages. The kids I have met who do those things at my kids' colleges are also really good academic students. Are there ANY athletes who are accepted where the adcoms are willing to go a little lower on the academics? Maybe so, but that is not true of every athlete on campus. Not at all. At elite colleges, the adcoms don't have to compromise a great deal academically to get someone who is good enough for their sports teams. Meet some of these kids....some are doing science research, publishing, and what not, while also athletes. Most of my D's teammates are pursuing med school, law school, grad school, or architecture school. Some are excelling at the sport at the same time.</p>
<p>Midmo:</p>
<p>It was sad to see that the SO that my older son enjoyed in middle school just wasn't there in h.s. It was this ghostly apparition in place one year and gone the next always due to budget cuts that impacted those stipends. Parent volunteers came in and tried to keep it going one year, but you really had to have a teacher on board and there were union issues about the teacher volunteering time so eventually it just died without any monetary support from the school. I realize this kind of thing is a school-by-school and district-by-district thing. If you're in a district that financially supports a wide range of EC activites for its students, you're lucky.</p>