St Olaf vs Denison seeking info on campus culture

College Search & Selection
21

Fiske is probably the single most reliable source of honest assessment of the colleges it lists. You can read how Fiske compiles its assessment at the beginning of the book. Fiske’s pens aren’t just based on how many classes a college offers. It will be based on the quality and depth of course material, how rigorous it is, and how well it’s taught. There isn’t that much difference between 3.5 pens and 4, however.

I suggest reading @MYOS1634 ‘s response again, #13 above. She is a very authoritative and experienced user who works in this field. I trust all she says.

1 Like
22

I would add, on academics, that Denison has been proactive in adapting and expanding its academic offerings, with Data Analytics, a large CS dept (relatively, for a LAC), concentration in Financial Econ, narrative non-fiction, a new Politics and Public Affairs major, etc. It is very strong on career development and draws heavily on its proximity to Columbus.

Both schools are excellent and would provide a wonderful education and community for a student. There are differences, but a nice, engaged kid is going to have a fantastic experience at either school. I realize I can be annoyingly “yay Denison” but it is because a lot of people still think of it as the school it was 20 years ago, and my kid, and his extended friend group (none of whom were athletes), had such an incredible experience and loved it so much, that I try contribute to more updated understandings of the school. If it were my kid, I’d suggest looking at distribution requirements, course listings in departments of interest, activities, groups etc.

6 Likes
23

Thanks very much. I think that is the problem - both schools sound very good and hard to distinguish from a distance. If we were able to visit I think the “vibe” would provide an answer but we don’t have this option.

1 Like
24

Thanks @Lindagaf. You are right there is lots of really useful information in @MYOS1634 ’s post. Have looked again as you suggested.

1 Like
25

Go back to the intro and re-read what the academic ratings (for example, 4 pens) mean. They are definitely not a rating of selectivity, which tells us almost nothing about what’s going on in terms of teaching & learning. Here’s what the book says:

“Academic Ratings: This is a judgment about the overall academic climate of the institution, including its reputation in the academic world, the quality of the faculty, the level of teaching and research, the academic ability of students, the quality of libraries and other facilities, and the level of academic seriousness among students and faculty members. . .”

The paragraph continues with more detail, but that pretty much states what the “pens” are rating. Two things are important. First, as they state, it is a “judgment”. Since the rating is simply their opinion, other opinions may differ. Second, they might be wrong.

1 Like
26

Thanks - that was my point. It seems to me that the things being rated are actually more important than selectivity (which would have little impact on my student’s learning experience). As you say it is only a judgement from the authors of the book, which is why I am interested to hear whether people on CC think it is a credible and reliable publication. @Lindagaf has indicated that she thinks it is.

3 Likes
27

I think Fiske is an excellent resource - not so much for the ratings but for the pages and pages of description of the colleges and campus life. The ratings can be a helpful starting point; they are after all “informed opinions” but only so long as anyone picking a college understands that it’s their own opinion that matters most.

When I was 13 years old, I used to go out and buy whatever records made it to #1 on the hit parade. After a while, I asked myself why I owned these records; I didn’t even like half of them. That’s when I started developing my own taste in music. :star_struck:

My point is that teenagers are easily influenced and often undervalue their own judgments. At the same time, their judgments can be overly influenced by superficial things that won’t matter in the long run. Hence the need for parental guidance. Tough decisions to make with or without the help of Fiske.

2 Likes
28

From the recent St Olaf’s grads we know, plus my own kid’s experience at Denison, I think there is much more in common between the schools and the types of kids than there is difference. The main differences as I understand between the two cultures relates to alcohol and gen ed requirements.

St. Olaf (1) is a “dry campus” – no alcohol is permitted in campus buildings, including dorms – though I’ve heard it described as “moist” – drinking happens, but it’s not supposed to and (2) has religion classes as part of distribution requirements – which as everyone describes, can be fulfilled with eastern religion etc.

At Denison, (1) the approach to alcohol is more about keeping people safe and learning how to drink – when it’s legal – safely. There is a “good samaritan” rule that if a student calls security to help another student who may be at risk because of alcohol or drugs, the student making the report will not be penalized. The on-campus infirmary will get involved if necessary. Similarly, Denison recognizes students over 21 can legally drink, and I’ve heard the new senior apartment building, Silverstein, has or will have a wine bar or something similar, the idea being to prepare students who are legally allowed to drink to do so responsibly. (2) Denison’s distribution requirements do not require a class in religion, even broadly described.

Beyond that, to my mind, other relevant differences could be geographic distribution of students and travel. St Olaf reports 43% of its students come from Minnesota and another 24% are from the midwest, with 4% of the students from the east coast. Denison reports 23% of its students are from Ohio and, while I can’t find specifics for other regions reported by Denison, my son’s experience was that Portland, Maine to DC/NoVa corridor was the most common, plus Chicago, North Carolina, and California. So while there aren’t quite apples-to-apples comparison on geographic diversity, Denison seems to have broader geographic distribution, including 19% international students vs. 7% at St Olaf.

The OP said that there is a sibling in NY – lots of Denison students in NY area so plenty of opportunity to travel together. Columbus airport is about 25 minutes from campus and is an easy in-and-out airport, the kind of place you don’t have to tack on an extra hour to plan for delays in getting through security, traffic etc.

Beyond that, I would suggest reaching out to both Admissions departments for connections to current students and faculty in choir and key academic areas of interest. Talk to current students about actually doing choir and other music-related ECs on campus. I’m tone deaf (my family would say in more ways than one), so have no sense of competitiveness to “make” choir at St Olaf vs. Denison, opportunities for students at either campus to be involved etc.

4 Likes
29

I know nothing about either college, but I will say the town of Granville is absolutely lovely. It has that small-town feel but also an air of sophistication and lots on offer. Also there is a really nice hotel.

1 Like
30

Many more experienced answers than mine above. Ours is anecdotal. My son accepted St. Olaf as a very lefty Jewish kid from NJ. He did not want to got to go to a school where most kids were just like him but wanted a place that attracted a student body that enjoyed open minded, intellectual debate from diverse perspectives. Thoughtful not knee-jerk in his words. He loves music and plays a bit but not super seriously. He wants to travel as much as possible which St. Olaf excels at with its many opportunities including January semester. The absence of any hint of sporty-drinking culture was a plus and the idea of MN-nice vs. Ohio-nice also seemed to have an effect after spending time all over both states over the years. We have a family friend on the faculty of Denison and it is a wonderful college, on the up and up for sure, but all of us felt something intangibly special about the feeling at St. Olaf.

8 Likes
31

I don’t know if this helps are not. My daughter is finishing up her sophomore year at Denison. She was fortunate to get one of the merit based full tuition scholarships which was not the reason for her attending but was a net positive. Denison recently sent her a message telling her because of her high college GPA she should apply for additional scholarships from the university. We agreed she shouldn’t apply for additional money because we don’t need it. I’m not sure if St. Olaf does this, but this tells me Denison wants to increase financial support of select students. This could reduce the cost of attending in the future.

2 Likes
32

Just to be clear, NJDad22, what would the additional scholarship cover?She already has a full tuition scholarship. So, would the 2nd one be for room & board?

And you turned it down? You are an exceptional human being. Hats off to you. Or did it come with a GPA requirement and you wanted to avoid putting extra pressure on your daughter? If it’s the latter, then you’re an exceptional dad.

Either way, you’re exceptional, so a tip of the hat.

2 Likes
33

We have no idea of how much or what it would cover as we didn’t investigate. Some schools, not Denison, did offer her scholarships that covered both tuition and room and board. Also I’m not worried about additional pressure she is pre-med and if you don’t have an extremely high GPA you don’t get to go.

2 Likes
34

Thanks @BktoNJ that is very helpful. I wood love it though if you could try to explain the difference between Minnesota-nice and Ohio-nice! We are from NZ (also considered very nice, I think) but I have no idea how to distinguish between what you mean.

2 Likes
35

Hi, I sent you a message with a more thorough answer, but the state politics are very different and that both reflects and effects the culture and laws across the state. They handled the pandemic very differently for example, women’s rights are not equal between the states, the ability for people to openly carry weapons in many places (including many weapons) in Ohio vs. somewhat more regulation in MN just as a few examples.

36

Both Ohio and Minnesota are in the American Midwest. Midwesterners are considered to be exceedingly pleasant and polite to a fault, just the opposite of New Yorkers who are seen as brash, outspoken , and confrontational - also to a fault. As BktoNJ said of the 2 states have their differences on the liberal-conservative spectrum, but the stereotypic core personality is seen as being similar.

2 Likes
37

I’m a New Yorker not New Jersyite and we certainly embrace our directness. I spent many happy years in the PNW but often found the hesitancy to express an opinion there a little frustrating. Do you think it’s my imagination that the industrial midwest (OH) and the western prairie/Upper Midwest (MN) have somewhat different cultural personalities? Both polite and hospitable but the latter more independent/rugged/outdoorsy (and the former more conservative)?

1 Like
38

sorry, typo–“now New Jersyite”

39

My impressions (subjective) are that both have students who are academically serious, concerned about learning, interested in many things, friendly, open minded.
The differences would be that St Olaf students seemed “nice and wholesome”, with some non-competitive outdoorsy activities (nordic skiing, snowshoeing, sledding) popular for non athletes alongside broomball inter-residence competitions, whereas Denison students seemed “sporty”, “super energetic”, or perhaps more “athletic” in every day life, with an interest in intramural competitions in many sports both as participants and public (we’re not talking D1 tailgates here though!!!)

3 Likes
40

I’m a native New Yorker too, now transplanted to New England.

No disgreement with what you say about industrial Midwest vs prairie. Even within a state like Ohio there are differences between the industrial cities and the small town. One of my best friends grew up in St. Paul and went to Macalester. I also have friends & colleagues from Ohio. So, yes, the differences you describe are born out in the people I know.

Frankly I was just trying to help describe the stereotypes you mentioned for the benefit of our friend from New Zealand. I have to chuckle about your experience in the PNW where you were reluctant to express an opinion. I often find myself in groups where someone is disliked for being too “bossy” or outspoken. That outsider is like a little bit of home to me. I like the bluntness that irritates others. I’d prefer to know where I stand with someone that to have someone beat around the bush all the time.

2 Likes