Stanford v. Oxford for prestige?

College Search & Selection
121

<p>Excuse me…You mean LAST century…</p>

122

<p>Haha this discussion has gotten out of hand. I think it’s unreasonable to bash Oxford. It is indeed a top-rate school. It just isn’t so good that you can say it’s better than Stanford. </p>

<p>Undergrad selectivity is another matter. And I’ve lost track of where everybody stands on this.</p>

<p>And just a pet peeve–really, how is the 800-year history of Oxford relevant? I think anything from more than 50-100 years ago is largely irrelevant to any institution’s current status. And political/literary figures are really culturally and geographically limited. You can’t expect a British PM or English author to come from, say, the University of Tokyo, no matter how good it might be.</p>

123

<p>RML: You do realize that getting A*AA in the UK A-levels is easy, don’t you? They are harder than the SATs, but really you’d be a disgrace if you can’t get at least AAA. Now the STEP papers are hard, but then Math at Cambridge is like one of their hottest majors. You can’t take the very best that Oxbridge have to offer and compare it to the totality of the top US schools.</p>

124

<p>

Can you prove that it is easy to get an A</em>AA in A-Levels? I need to see facts not stories or anecdotes.</p>

<p>

But almost everyone that has been admitted to Oxford has the same stats as with everybody in the university. The only difference is that the odds of getting onto a popular major are lower than onto a less popular major. But as for the requirements, they are almost the same.</p>

<p>

Not entirely relevant but age also contributes to school prestige, because it takes a lot of time to build academic reputation. Remember that we are talking about school prestige not academic quality. And, Oxford has educated a lot of leaders around the world. several State leaders and prime ministers have been educated at oxford. It has the biggest University Press in the world, bigger than Harvard’s or Cambridge’s. Oxford publishes the oxford dictionary. According to oxford’s website: *In China alone, 14 million school children use Oxford books every year, and internationally around 16 million children use Oxford ELT materials to learn English. Oxford boasts one of the most extensive global alumni networks in the world, with more than 170 groups in over 60 countries. * So, with that in mind, Oxford’s brand name is hard to beat. This pains me to say this, but Oxford has better prestige than Cambridge has. And, Cambridge is more prestigious than Stanford as a whole.</p>

125

<p>

</p>

<p>I didn’t use it incorrectly. It is an adjective denoting the practice of hypocrisy.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>You have missed the key word: “I think”. I do not believe I have ever done as you have and presented an opinion as fact. I know full well that I do not have the experience to comment in depth on the liberal arts, which is why I didn’t. I was commenting on the basic principle in comparison to my own system.</p>

126

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</p>

<p>“Feigned holiness” and “hypocrisy” are synonymous. However, I have not been hypocritical in any way. My views have been pretty clear I think.</p>

<p>Anyways just let it go. I just got angry when you made claims that I was “flaming” which is not rily the case. As presenting my opinion thnxs to the beautiful concept called “freedom of speech.”</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>No I didn’t. I said "These are all perfectly legit and are your own opinion. " However, you should not call out anyone when you yourself make “I think” claims. It does not matter the degree of the assertion. What matters is that you have performed in the same vein. Moreover, you are I am sure less in a position to comment on both systems than I am (you did not even apply to US universities) so it would make sense why I present my positions as facts. </p>

<p>Its possible for some of us to compare selectivity because we turned in multiple applications across countries and we had friends and neighbors who did the same. So stop assuming all of us have the same experiences. As for prestige, I would not argue about this because I really dont have anyway of quantifying it. Is it by how much people gasp at the name of your school? Or is it the opportunities the school awards you? I never got the prestige concept.</p>

127

<p>To me it seems an insult to Oxford that people are comparing Stanford to its level…Stanford is an amazing university, gives an amazing education, but frankly its a VERY new school and so it’s like comparing a little baby to a mature adult. Stanford just needs more time at the moment.</p>

128

<h1>physical science</h1>

<p>1 Harvard University United States 93.5 96.4 70.5 36.1 97.7 95.2
2 California Institute of Technology United States 92.4 95.6 52.6 77.0 99.2 91.5
3 Massachusetts Institute of Technology United States 91.7 93.3 84.2 50.0 94.9 91.9
4 Princeton University United States 90.3 88.4 69.2 Data not supplied 93.7 92
5 Stanford University United States 90.1 94.4 30 59.9 97.5 91.4 ***************
6 University of California Berkeley United States 88.5 88.4 42.2 Data not supplied 97.9 87.9
7 University of Chicago United States 86.1 77.6 75.5 Data not supplied 83.6 95.6
8 University of Cambridge United Kingdom 84.4 92.1 76.4 54.0 92.6 75.8
9 Yale University United States 84.1 87.7 63.7 Data not supplied 84.1 84.2
10 University of Oxford United Kingdom 82.2 ********************</p>

<h1>Life science</h1>

<p>1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology United States 95.1 95.5 79.1 83.5 91.9 100
2 Harvard University United States 94.7 98.4 68.1 35.9 96.5 98.2
3 Stanford University United States 91.7 96.1 31.4 53.8 95.4 96.3
4 University of Oxford United Kingdom </p>

<h1>medical and health science</h1>

<p>1 Harvard University United States 93.3 99.3 71.6 37.7 89.6 98.1
2 Stanford University United States 91 97.3 32.3 53.8 90.2 97.2
3 University of Cambridge United Kingdom 90.3 88.4 78.4 49.8 88.3 97.4
4 University of Oxford United Kingdom 90.2 88.4 60.6 59.3 88.3 99
5 Imperial College London United Kingdom 88.5 </p>

<h1>engineering</h1>

<p>1 California Institute of Technology United States 95.9 98.9 49.2 89.9 98.6 99.1
2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology United States 94.7 98.6 76.7 84.0 93.7 96.6
3 Stanford University United States 93 97.9 27.9 70.8 96.7 99.1 **********
4 Princeton University United States 91.3 89.7 62.7 Data not supplied 90.1 98.8
5 University of California Berkeley United States 90.5 88.5 36.3 Data not supplied 97.4 94.5
6 University of Cambridge United Kingdom 87.8 94.5 83.6 62.6 93.6 80.3
7 Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zurich Switzerland 87.2 86.1 90 Data not supplied 95.2 79.8
8 University of Oxford United Kingdom 85.9 *******************</p>

<h1>Overall ranking</h1>

<p>1 Harvard University United States 96.1 99.7 72.4 34.5 98.7 98.8
2 California Institute of Technology United States 96.0 97.7 54.6 83.7 98.0 99.9
3 Massachusetts Institute of Technology United States 95.6 97.8 82.3 87.5 91.4 99.9
4 Stanford University United States 94.3 98.3 29.5 64.3 98.1 99.2 ****************
5 Princeton University United States 94.2 90.9 70.3 Data not supplied 95.4 99.9
6 University of Cambridge United Kingdom 91.2 90.5 77.7 57.0 94.1 94.0
6 University of Oxford United Kingdom 91.2 88.2 77.2 73.5 93.9 95.1 ***************
8 University of California Berkeley United States 91.1 84.2 39.6 Data not supplied 99.3 97.8
9 Imperial College London United Kingdom 90.6 89.2 90.0 92.9 94.5 88.3
10 Yale University United States 89.5 </p>

<p>[Top</a> 200 - The Times Higher Education World University Rankings 2010-2011](<a href=“http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2010-2011/top-200.html]Top”>World University Rankings 2010-11 | Times Higher Education (THE))</p>

129

<p>RML: </p>

<p>According to [DCSF:</a> GCE/Applied GCE A/AS and Equivalent Examination Results in England, 2008/09 (Revised)](<a href=“http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000906/index.shtml]DCSF:”>http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000906/index.shtml) , 12.7% of students get AAA or above in the GCE A-levels. I can’t find stats for A*AA specifically, but within my circle, it’s nothing spectacular. </p>

<p>The requirements for various majors are similar precisely because the A-levels are too easy. You used math as an example, which requires an additional harder test. That is why I said it’s unfair to use that as a comparison. If you use the AAA statistic, then it’s not impressive at all.</p>

130

<p>Datalook: The THES rankings are notorious for inflating the numbers for British schools. Its “reputation” surveys are totally black-boxes and mainly encompassed commonwealth scholars in the past. Even supposedly objective data like citations appear distorted in that ranking. Nobody really knows how they came up with the numbers. A more objective ranking would be ARWU or the Taiwan HEEACT rankings, which obviously favor the sciences but at least they use hard numbers.</p>

131

<p>datalook, you can give stats all you want but oxford has more prestige than any university in the world.</p>

132

<p>I’m talking about the prestige that is well-defined, tractable, and measurable. The prestige you are talking about is perhaps sort of vague and not well-defined, thus can not be verified.</p>

133

<p>rankingsaddict,</p>

<p>I know Times ranking favors British universities. But even that ranking places Stanford above Oxford. Just like you, I think ARWU ranking is more objective and more fair.</p>

134

<p>

</p>

<p>Dude, exactly what I have been saying several times. The THES methodology is dubious and they are not clear about who they survey for what. Their employment survey for example could have a +15 fluctuation in just one year. So employers could think of a university as good in 1 year then it would drop by 15% in another year. Such statistical differences are disturbing. </p>

<p>However if you tell some people that it is dubious, they get angry claiming that because it does not favor “ones preconceptions” does not mean it isnot right. Conveniently of course glossing through massive methodology failures.</p>

135

<p>Overall ranking</p>

<p>1 Harvard University Americas 1 1 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 69.2 100.0<br>
2 University of California, Berkeley Americas 2 2 67.6 79.3 69.0 70.9 70.6 54.2 72.4<br>
3 Stanford University Americas 3 3 40.2 78.4 87.6 68.4 69.7 50.1 72.1 ******
4 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) Americas 4 4 70.5 80.3 66.8 70.1 61.4 64.5 71.4<br>
5 University of Cambridge Europe 1 1 88.5 92.6 53.9 54.3 65.7 53.1 69.6<br>
6 California Institute of Technology Americas 5 5 50.3 68.8 56.7 64.8 46.9 100.0 64.4<br>
7 Princeton University Americas 6 6 56.4 84.8 61.1 43.3 44.3 65.5 60.8<br>
8 Columbia University Americas 7 7 70.7 67.4 56.2 47.6 69.9 32.1 60.4<br>
9 University of Chicago Americas 8 8 65.5 83.9 50.9 39.8 50.5 40.0 57.3<br>
10 University of Oxford Europe 2 2 56.2 57.6 48.8 49.8 68.5 41.1 56.4 ******
11 Yale University Americas 9 9 48.6 44.9 58.5 56.3 62.0 37.0 54.6<br>
12 Cornell University Americas 10 10 42.3 51.1 54.3 49.9 59.5 38.1 52.6 </p>

<p>Math
1 Princeton University 85.8 100.0 77.0 70.9 92.9 100.0<br>
2 University of California, Berkeley 56.2 53.5 95.2 78.7 86.0 93.8<br>
3 Harvard University 85.8 70.7 83.5 62.0 91.4 93.6<br>
4 Stanford University 0.0 26.7 100.0 69.3 99.6 85.0 ********<br>
5 University of Cambridge 88.9 80.2 59.1 57.3 84.7 84.9<br>
6 Pierre and Marie Curie University - Paris 6 64.9 0.0 69.9 89.7 74.3 77.5<br>
7 University of Oxford 45.9 53.5 64.7 64.3 80.1 77.4 **********
8 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) 0.0 37.8 64.7 73.1 87.7 74.0<br>
9 University of Paris Sud (Paris 11) 51.3 80.2 26.4 73.8 77.2 73.4<br>
10 University of California, Los Angeles 0.0 59.8 52.8 69.5 83.3 72.0 </p>

<p>Physics
1 Harvard University 64.9 87.5 100.0 58.3 96.3 100.0<br>
2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) 100.0 97.7 63.2 76.4 91.4 99.0<br>
3 California Institute of Technology 56.2 71.7 90.5 75.9 90.2 96.7<br>
4 Princeton University 45.9 86.0 92.4 61.8 95.7 96.0<br>
5 University of California, Berkeley 76.1 61.5 71.4 81.2 89.9 93.0<br>
6 Stanford University 68.8 100.0 57.2 60.1 92.5 89.3 *************
7 The University of Tokyo 39.7 36.8 66.1 100.0 83.8 86.4<br>
8 University of Cambridge 45.9 63.0 58.8 74.1 85.4 82.4<br>
9 University of Chicago 60.7 73.5 53.9 43.3 94.3 78.0<br>
10 Cornell University 51.3 84.9 46.7 50.1 90.1 77.6<br>
…
27 Oxford</p>

<p>Chemistry
1 University of California, Berkeley 90.7 42.6 100.0 72.8 96.0 100.0<br>
2 Harvard University 100.0 82.6 85.0 58.0 93.8 98.7<br>
3 University of Cambridge 68.6 82.1 88.2 66.0 92.6 97.8<br>
4 Stanford University 59.4 100.0 74.5 53.1 99.5 94.0 ************
5 Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zurich 34.3 75.4 69.4 72.4 86.8 87.0<br>
6 California Institute of Technology 0.0 93.7 81.6 49.9 94.0 85.2<br>
7 Kyoto University 34.3 36.9 57.7 100.0 79.3 82.5<br>
8 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) 24.3 52.2 62.4 64.9 97.8 80.5<br>
9 University of Oxford 34.3 30.2 57.7 74.2 88.8 76.4 **********
10 Northwestern University 0.0 42.6 66.7 60.6 98.8 76.1 </p>

<p>computer science
1 Stanford University 90.7 86.6 100.0 80.9 97.9 100.0 *******
2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) 54.2 100.0 89.2 87.8 89.3 94.8<br>
3 University of California, Berkeley 100.0 96.8 42.9 76.7 86.1 82.7<br>
4 Princeton University 68.6 71.8 60.6 63.0 94.7 78.7<br>
5 Carnegie Mellon University 42.0 79.1 55.3 85.4 75.4 76.4<br>
6 Cornell University 42.0 57.3 55.3 57.3 85.5 67.9<br>
7 University of Southern California 0.0 39.5 65.5 68.4 86.8 66.6<br>
8 The University of Texas at Austin 42.0 39.5 55.3 70.4 77.2 66.3<br>
9 Harvard University 97.0 0.0 42.9 65.5 93.7 65.6<br>
10 University of Toronto 24.3 53.0 49.5 71.1 78.3 65.5<br>
11 California Institute of Technology 59.4 0.0 60.6 46.8 100.0 63.0<br>
12 Weizmann Institute of Science 54.2 72.9 49.5 37.0 78.6 62.8<br>
13 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 42.0 0.0 49.5 81.7 81.5 62.5<br>
14 University of Maryland, College Park 0.0 0.0 60.6 81.5 84.9 61.9<br>
15 Technion-Israel Institute of Technology 34.3 0.0 49.5 76.7 84.3 61.1<br>
16 University of California, San Diego 0.0 0.0 65.5 68.0 81.3 58.5<br>
17 University of Oxford 24.3 53.0 42.9 60.0 66.6 57.5 ********</p>

<p>Economics
1 Harvard University 100.0 53.3 100.0 100.0 82.8 100.0<br>
2 University of Chicago 70.7 100.0 73.5 70.7 100.0 93.7<br>
3 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) 100.0 53.3 64.2 69.7 86.2 82.3<br>
4 Stanford University 40.8 32.9 85.4 72.3 85.2 78.7 **********
5 Columbia University 57.7 71.7 56.3 72.4 82.8 78.2<br>
5 University of California, Berkeley 50.0 65.2 64.2 73.8 80.4 78.2<br>
7 Princeton University 70.7 63.1 57.7 49.6 89.8 74.2<br>
8 University of Pennsylvania 0.0 28.5 73.5 76.6 82.3 70.3<br>
9 Yale University 70.7 40.3 33.3 60.0 83.7 64.7<br>
10 New York University 0.0 31.8 50.4 74.0 83.6 64.0<br>
11 Northwestern University 0.0 0.0 53.5 66.3 84.8 57.7<br>
12 University of Minnesota, Twin Cities 40.8 26.0 30.9 59.0 81.8 57.4<br>
13 Carnegie Mellon University 76.4 36.3 30.9 46.0 74.2 57.3<br>
14 University of Michigan - Ann Arbor 0.0 0.0 43.6 74.8 82.0 56.5<br>
15 University of Maryland, College Park 0.0 31.8 25.2 62.5 88.3 55.0<br>
16 University of Cambridge 57.7 63.7 17.8 61.1 54.7 54.9<br>
17 University of California, Los Angeles 57.7 0.0 30.9 58.2 80.4 54.3<br>
18 London School of Economics and Political Science 28.9 0.0 35.6 69.0 75.8 54.1<br>
19 Duke University 0.0 0.0 39.8 67.1 82.5 53.4<br>
20 University of California, San Diego 0.0 31.8 41.8 45.7 82.0 53.1<br>
21 University of Oxford 40.8 20.1 25.2 70.5 63.2 52.8 ***********</p>

136

<p>And here are the Taiwan HEEACT rankings, which rank according to research productivity, as measured by citations, number of high-impact papers, etc… </p>

<p>It is a little biased towards the medicine-heavy schools because it only adjusts for inter-discipline variations using the H-index and # of highly-cited papers, so you’ll need to dig into the subject rankings for a clearer picture. However, the SUBJECT RANKINGS DON’T CONTROL FOR SIZE, so you’ll need to be careful. </p>

<p>Somehow I can’t copy the scores over, so you’ll have to see for yourself: [Performance</a> Ranking of Scientific Papers for World Universities](<a href=“http://ranking.heeact.edu.tw/en-us/2010/TOP/100]Performance”>http://ranking.heeact.edu.tw/en-us/2010/TOP/100)</p>

<hr>

<p>OVERALL:

  1. Harvard
  2. Stanford
  3. Johns Hopkins
  4. U Washington - Seattle
  5. UCLA
  6. Berkeley
  7. MIT
  8. U Michigan - Ann Arbor
  9. Toronto
  10. Oxford
  11. Penn
  12. UCSD
  13. Columbia
  14. Tokyo
  15. UCSF
  16. Cambridge
  17. UCL
  18. Yale
  19. Duke
  20. U Wisconsin - Madison</p>

<hr>

<p>CLINICAL MEDICINE:

  1. Harvard
  2. Johns Hopkins
  3. UCSF
  4. UCLA
  5. Toronto
  6. U Washington - Seattle
  7. Penn
  8. Pittsburgh
  9. Mayo Clinic College of Medicine
  10. Duke
  11. U Michigan - Ann Arbor
  12. Columbia
  13. Stanford
  14. UCL
  15. MD Andersen
    …
  16. Oxford
    …
  17. Cambridge</p>

<hr>

<p>ENGINEERING:

  1. MIT
  2. Berkeley
  3. Tsinghua
  4. National University of Singapore
  5. Stanford
  6. Georgia Tech
  7. Nanyang Tech Univ
  8. U Illinois - Urbana-Champaign
  9. U Michigan - Ann Arbor
  10. Cambridge
  11. Penn State - University Park
  12. Seoul National University
  13. Harvard
  14. Tokyo
  15. Tohoku
  16. Imperial
    …
  17. Oxford</p>

<hr>

<p>LIFE SCIENCES:

  1. Harvard
  2. Johns Hopkins
  3. UCSF
  4. UCSD
  5. Stanford
  6. MIT
  7. Oxford
  8. U Washington - Seattle
  9. Yale
  10. UCL
  11. Penn
  12. UCLA
  13. Cambridge
  14. U Michigan - Ann Arbor
  15. WUSTL</p>

<hr>

<p>NATURAL SCIENCES:

  1. Berkeley
  2. Tokyo
  3. MIT
  4. Caltech
  5. Harvard
  6. Stanford
  7. Cambridge
  8. Princeton
  9. UCLA
  10. U Washington - Seattle
  11. Oxford
  12. Kyoto
  13. Columbia
  14. U Michigan - Ann Arbor
  15. Penn State - University Park</p>

<hr>

<p>SOCIAL SCIENCES:

  1. Harvard
  2. U Michigan - Ann Arbor
  3. Columbia
  4. Penn
  5. UCLA
  6. Stanford
  7. U Washington - Seattle
  8. UNC - Chapel Hill
  9. Berkeley
  10. U Minnesota - Twin Cities
  11. Johns Hopkins
  12. Chicago
  13. Yale
  14. Duke
  15. Oxford
    …
  16. Cambridge</p>

<hr>

<p>MATH:

  1. Stanford
  2. Berkeley
  3. Harvard
  4. Princeton
  5. UCLA
  6. U Minnesota - Twin Cities
  7. U Michigan - Ann Arbor
  8. U Washington - Seattle
  9. Paris VI - Pierre et Marie Curie
  10. MIT
  11. National University of Singapore
  12. U Wisconsin - Madison
  13. Oxford
  14. Lomonosov Moscow State University
  15. Chicago
    …
  16. Cambridge</p>

<hr>

137

<p>rankingsaddict, thanks for the link you provided, but I browsed through it to find out where that 12.7% is and I couldn’t find it. </p>

<p>I wasn’t trying to compare the level of difficulty in getting admitted to Oxbridge vis-avis Ivies because they all have different requirements. I have not taken A-levels so I can’t vouch for its level of difficulty, but I have heard many students complain that getting an AAA is just as hard as getting 2300 on SATs.</p>

138

<p>

To me, it seems an insult to compare Stanford to Oxford… Oxford is an amazing university that gave an amazing education, but frankly its a very OLD school and so it’s like comparing a rising athlete to a retired runner with osteoporosis. Oxford just needs some more time to accept that the British Empire is no longer steering the world.</p>

<p>Stop with the baby analogies, please. Stanford has had 100 years. If it weren’t mature, it wouldn’t be compared with the likes of HYP.</p>

<p>

The A-Levels are more like mandatory, watered down AP exams than the SATs and an AAA is actually very easy to attain. British students often refer to the A-levels as easier than the International Baccalaureate. </p>

<p>For most subjects, ~20% test takers receive an A. Some subjects yield as high as ~40% A grades. Most A*s are in the single digits (except Math Further which has like 30%) but, even then, they are nowhere near impossible.</p>

<p>[A</a> level National subject grade percentages](<a href=“http://www.bstubbs.co.uk/a-lev.htm]A”>A level National subject grade percentages)</p>

<p>AAA is nowhere as difficult as getting 2300 on the SATs. I repeat that admissions to Oxford and Cambridge are very lax. -.-</p>

<p>***NOTE: The A-Levels in Hong Kong and Singapore are much more stringent that the A-levels in Britain and an AAA is very, very difficult to attain.</p>

139

<p>RML: The 12.7% figure I am referring to is listed under “KEY POINTS”, and which I quote here: </p>

<p>“12.7 per cent of GCE/Applied GCE A level candidates achieved 3 or more A grades at A level - an increase of 0.6 percentage points from 2008 and an increase of 0.2 percentage points from the provisional figure.”</p>

<p>The GCE A-levels are substantially easier than the IB, and, as sentimentGX4 has pointed out, other renditions of A-levels elsewhere. For the average student, perhaps AAA is hard, but if you are talking about Oxbridge/US top 10-20-level candidates, then it’s really not anything spectacular. The Brits know this very well, which was why they introduced the A* grade a few years back, but then even an A* isn’t THAT hard to achieve. And that’s the reason why Cambridge has the STEP papers for Math.</p>

140

<p>

In other words, you are biased towards Stanford and will pull up every ranking you can find to dispute the obvious. </p>

<p>Prestige, coming from a word meaning trick or illusion, cannot be quantified. Still, one can get an idea. Asking people outside of California would yield interesting results.</p>