http://www.stanforddaily.com/2013/04/10/blog-a-few-thoughts-on-the-new-yorker-piece/
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/30/education/americas-it-school-look-west-harvard.html?_r=0
@stanfordfoodie I feel the debate is mainly Stanford vs Harvard, not Stanford vs HYP. I don’t think there is much competition between Stanford and Princeton,Yale, since Stanford comes on top vs these two in virtually all aspects.
Here’s another good article:
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2014/10/30/stanford-vs-harvard/
Stanford is not better at undergrad than HYP, or at least not Y and P.
The quality of undergraduate education (actual teaching/academics) is probably even, with each school having its own strengths and relatively less popular majors. Stanford’s advantage is that it is the only one located in CA – that greatly helps its popularity, but it does nothing for actual quality. The others have more history, obviously.
Princeton is the richest per student, though all four are rich.
The student-prof interaction is probably best at Princeton, which is the most undergrad-focused of HYPSM. And Yale has a higher percentage of undergrads than Stanford too (though not by Princeton’s wide margin…).
Yale has the residential colleges and the “try it out” thing where students try out their classes before committing.
I think the more meaningful and practical groupings that show the relative emphases of these schools are:
- Princeton and Yale are relatively more undergrad-focused
- Harvard and Stanford are relatively more grad-focused
So, no, especially for undergrad, Stanford isn’t “better” than Princeton or Yale. (and neither is Harvard…)
Stanford has surpassed Yale and Princeton in practically every metric… annual fundraising… global rankings (NSWR not withstanding that places an inordinate amount of emphasis on 4 grad rates which favors non FBS schools and penalizes schools that have FBS athletic programs), selectivity and cross admits.
perhaps 10 years ago you could have made that argument. I would add that Stanford has occupied the top spot for fundraising (tops 8 of the last 10 years), selectivity (admit rate and yield) that have has historically occupied by Harvard.
I agree these days it’s between Stanford and Harvard…
and with MIT in Engineering…
and with Berkeley, UCLA and USC in sports:)
@prezbucky I dont necessarily disagree with what you are saying, but the fact still remains that even for undergrads people seem to be placing Harvard and Stanford ahead of Yale and Princeton. Harvard, Stanford have yield rates in the 80%+ range, Yale and Princeton usually are in the 68-70% range. Stanford is winning the cross-admit split over Princeton and Yale (and Harvard I think). Also in most other tangible metrics that really influence peoples perception (such as rankings, research output, acceptance rates, prominent alumni, fundraising), there is a gap between Stanford/Harvard and Yale/Princeton. The prominence of a school does not really stem from its undergrad focus.
No – grad/research matter a lot in terms of overall university rep. But undergrad focus should matter to prospective undergrads, imo.
And does the H/S yield advantage speak to quality or location? For Harvard, Boston must be a selling point, and we know the California loc and weather are sometimes deciding factors for Stanford. Obviously location and weather are part of fit, and there’s nothing wrong with them… but they shouldn’t be considered part of academic strength. Fit, yes; but not academic fit.
I realize the difference in undergrad focus is not going to be extreme between P/Y and H/S, but a slight difference might make a student’s experience just a little bit better: a little bit more prof contact, another activity, etc.
When you’re trying to split hairs to compare two (or four…) hyperelite schools, it might be worth considering to what degree a school puts its undergrads first.
All this said, H and S obviously are great schools at the undergrad level.
@prezbucky is right. Too much is being made of yield and how good a school is. Harvard has benefited from having one of the best financial aid packages. Stanford has the advantage that it is the only elite school in the west/southwest, an area that is seeing a surge in population.
Schools manage their yield. They get far more qualified applicants than they can admit, so they can make selections to meet specific yields.
Stanford has approximately 2,000 more undergrad students than Princeton. As a parent, I’m naturally concerned about the quality of undergrad EDUCATION that my son is going to receive in the next four years, and someone would have to come up with lots of convincing evidences that an institution with 2,000 more undergrad student body is getting a better undergrad education, care, and support. What I see too often is the college bound kids prioritizing name brand and prestige before quality as their decision making. The truly smart ones among them would choose Princeton for undergrad (or Williams and other great LAC’s that offer quality undergrad education, for that matter) and then Stanford (or other “prestigious” universities) for grad program. All these “which college is THE best” is really silly and juvenile.
Having attended Stanford, I can’t say that I ever felt the focus was on graduate student and not undergrads. Maybe it would change by major, but having such outstanding grad programs provided not just outstanding undergraduate opportunities, but also the chance to take graduate coursework and engage in research at some of the country’s top rated graduate schools.
I’m curious @TiggerDad - can someone come up with convincing evidence that 2000 more undergrads means a worse education? Maybe at massive and under-funded schools, but at Stanford v Princeton?
@Lagging - I never said that 2000 more undergrads means a worse education. My argument was directed at those who blindly and uncritically state things in favor of Stanford based on its popularity. Each and every student is different and has different need. What’s a good college fit is not necessarily a good college it in another.
@TiggerDad The truly smart ones among them would choose Princeton for undergrad (or Williams and other great LAC’s that offer quality undergrad education, for that matter) and then Stanford (or other “prestigious” universities) for grad program.
Not necessarily, it depends on the kind of undergrad experience one wants and what they want to study. I find it hard to believe that the quality of undergraduate education (however one can measure that), at Princeton is meaningfully better than at a place like Stanford.
The truth is that admits are not just motivated by quality of education when choosing amongst tippy top colleges, since any such difference is hard to measure at this level, especially amongst HYPS. They look at strength in their areas of interest, environment (large vs small school, urban vs rural etc), vibe and perceived prestige. Financial aid does enter into the equation but when we are talking about HYPS the financial aid differences are bound to be negligible and each school tends to match the FA given by another.
@CA94309 Harvard benefits because it has the strongest brand name of any institution in higher education and a very long history of being perceived as the ultimate dream school. Stanford benefits because it is quickly approaching Harvard in brand prominence, is at least equally as strong or better in all fields, but it has a cooler/hipper brand and is seen as the future and something different from Harvard. Yale and Princeton live, to an extent, in Harvard’s shadow, Stanford does not.
I don’t think location or financial aid fully explain the gap in yield between H/S and Y/P. Location might be bumping Stanford’s yield a bit but it doesn’t account for most of the 12 percentage point difference. HYP sure have to fight over those cross-admits that decide to stay east (and Harvard usually wins), but there are increasingly many east coast kids choosing to reject HYP to go west to Stanford and there are also California kids who go for HYP instead of Stanford. The advantage Stanford has it hat it doesn’t really have to fight with any other school for the cross-admits staying west.
I am not saying that H/S are better choices than Y/P, I am just making an observation about how these schools are perceived nowadays.
@Penn95 - “I find it hard to believe that the quality of undergraduate education (however one can measure that), at Princeton is meaningfully better than at a place like Stanford.”
Again, I NEVER said that Princeton is “meaningfully better than at a place like Stanford.” I personally don’t like those with elitist attitude, and I’d never put Princeton (or any college, for that matter, including Harvard from where I received one of my three “prestigious” graduate degrees) above any other colleges. About two or three decades ago, I remember, whenever Harvard loses in an athletic event, the students would yell at the opposing team, “it’s okay, you’ll work for us when you graduate” or something to that effect. Harvard, being dismayed at such asinine attitude displayed by its students, put a stop to that and rightfully so. Fast forward to today, it’s the Stanford students who are more likely to display such attitude than any other colleges nowadays. I also remember receiving a copy of Harvard Magazine about two decades ago that featured all the failed Harvard graduates, those who ended up driving taxi cabs and high rise window washers in NY and other cities after graduation. The point is you can go to whatever college you think is the BEST of them all and don’t amount to much, or become the next Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Barack Obama, or whatever. It’s all up to each individual aspirations that make the person a successful story or not regardless of which college one graduates from (or non at all). This is what makes America great, the land of boundless opportunities.
What does it take to get through to so many juvenile minds out there that there is simply no BEST school out there? There, however, is the better fitting college out there for each and everyone. Ultimately, it’s what you make of the years in college. The college ITSELF isn’t going to do it for you, no matter which college that is. The fact that my son is headed to Princeton is no guarantee that he’d be successful in comparison to someone else’s son or daughter heading off to, say, the State University of ______ . Just lose the elitist attitude, as it serves no one any good. That goes for Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, Stanford or whatever.
You say that, then advocate certain schools as the best choices and heavily imply that the undergrad education is impaired at Stanford due to a larger class size when compared to Princeton. No one’s saying Stanford is the best - I don’t know who you’re trying to argue with here…
Any substantive proof for this sweeping claim?
Princeton was the only school I took off my app list after visiting because of the elitist attitude of the profs, student tour guides, and already admitted student in the tours. Though obviously experiences widely differ - I’m not going to make the generalization that Princeton is the most snobby of the Ivies from one (awful) experience.
@Lagging - You know what? As long as you and I can agree that the elitist attitude doesn’t serve any good purpose, then we don’t need to argue ad infinitum based on misunderstanding. We’re all good.
@TiggerDad "I also remember receiving a copy of Harvard Magazine about two decades ago that featured all the failed Harvard graduates, those who ended up driving taxi cabs and high rise window washers in NY and other cities after graduation. The point is you can go to whatever college you think is the BEST of them all and don’t amount to much, "
Who’s being elitist now? What’s wrong with driving a taxi or washing windows for a living?
“Best” is elusive, since so many factors go into making a place the best for a particular student. I think it’s more important, and useful, for kids to try to find the best school for them, rather than rely on reputation rankings – or any other ranking, really – to guide their search.
Stanford is going to be the best fit for some kids, YPH for others, Chicago or Columbia or a LAC for yet others. The important thing, IMO, is for the kids to form a list of things they think are important – fit variables – and rate schools according to those things. If they go through the process without too much bias, and if their favorite is also affordable… they can’t really go wrong.
Regarding the % of undergrads on a campus… obviously Harvard, Stanford and MIT (and Columbia, and Chicago…) know how to teach undergrads effectively, even if they are less than 50% undergrad. I just think, vaguely (this would be hard to prove…), that the higher the proportion of undergrads, the more the school must be of (well duh…), by, and for them.
You might be able to quantify that a little bit by figuring out how much a school spends on each student (taking into account differences in enrollment in more expensive majors and standard of living…) and average class size. But there might also be unprovable qualitative factors, like budget discussions among trustees/budget committees – where does the money go first if they’re deciding between a grad program and an undergrad program? Whom do the higher-ups aim to please most? Whom do they see as their primary bell cow?
I’m not sure it’s possible to know without being in those meetings; to be a fly on one of those walls.
As a disclaimer as well as to reveal more of our situation, my son was admitted to Williams, Amherst, Pomona, three Ivy League colleges, Duke and others. After hours and hours of research from all different angles at all the colleges that my son was admitted to, my own personal conclusion was that Williams was the best for my son based on its quality of undergrad education, experience, and opportunities. I found Williams, apart from its remote location and such, to be phenomenal from a parent’s perspective. My son, however, decided that Princeton is his top choice. I’m obviously not the one who’s going to college, so I backed off. Then, when Princeton sent an astounding mail about readjusting the original FA offer, I was floored. I made up my mind then and there that I fully support my son’s college choice. Stanford, Yale, Harvard, Princeton, etc. are top elite schools, no doubt, but being “elite” is not good enough to make one’s choice. Ultimately, the right choice is the one where you feel confident that you can thrive and benefit the most from.
@Hoggirl - I didn’t come up with that featured piece on Harvard Magazine; Harvard did.
@prezbucky - Can’t agree more. 