@DeepBlue86 “These schools are ultimately all just different flavors of the same super-premium ice cream.”
Sure but that’s not any fun to argue about. You do know this is a forum, right, just a bunch of opinions. :)>-
US Government :: Dominated by Harard>> Yale >>>>Columbia < Princeton graduates …
Law :: Dominated by Harvard / Yale Columbia Princeton graduates.
Wall Street/Finance :: Dominated by Harvard/Yale Princeton Wharton/Columbia Graduates…
Number of Billionaires (undergrad) :: Wharton> Harvard> Yale>USC> Princeton> Cornell
High Tech Billionaire Ranking (undergrad) : Harvard (Gates) > Princeton( Bezos) > Harvard (zukerberg) > Larry Ellison (Chicago) > Sergey Brinn ( Michigan) /Larry Page (Maryland)
US Presidents :: Haravrd > Yale > Columbia > Princeton
Seems like Stanford undergrads are doing far worse than IVY school alumni, in almost every field.
^Well comparing Stanford to the Ivies as a whole is a bit of an unfair comparison JamesVanc. . . one school versus eight.
I do wonder if the rapid increase in CS majors at Stanford in recent years (a trend that is also evident at other schools, though maybe not to the same degree, and especially not at state schools that cap the major) has the potential to dilute the job market perception of the undergraduate CS degree over time. No doubt those CS majors are all really smart people, but many of them would have majored in HumBio or Econ or some other field in the not too distant past and in some cases their interests and skills are probably a better fit for other fields.
I don’t know the answer but something that occurs to me when I see the rapid increase in numbers.
For the complement of the subset below, Stanford >>>>>=>>>>
Ridiculous debate to compare H and S :
-
Most applicants DO NOT HAVE THE CHOICE, you are lucky if you get into one of these.
So why compare them, not like shopping for a car. The one you get admission should be compared
to your other options -
Undergrad experience, I have had friends at all these schools when I was a student, and now as a parent, know kids currently in all these schools. Yale has by far the most undergraduate friendly program, kids who go to Yale LOVE IT.
I think Brown has a similar level of undergraduate satisfaction. Harvard and Stanford may be prestigious, but you don’t eat prestige day to day for 4 years. -
If famous graduates would cause one to attend, Cornell has a current Supreme Court justice, and former Atty General, both women. Future female lawyers should go to Cornell undergrad (which gets them into Harvard Law apparently). Commissioners of the NHL and MLB both went to Cornell undergrad before Harvard Law, so future male attorneys should consider Cornell undergrad for a future in law ! Cornell is not even in this convo, but above Chicago and Michigan was added to the discussion to make this point. HYPS does not produce all the accomplished people in society. And the most famous tech examples from Harvard are drop outs, so what does that say about the value of the Harvard education, to them ?
@DeepBlue86 your evidence based obsessions miss the mark. Prestige and market differentiation are inherent subjective, fuzzy and fluid.
I think @JamesVanc and @bluewater2015 have put their fingers on something, which is that it can be appropriate to compare S to the Ivies as a whole, or to HYP as a subgroup, given location and history.
I think of it this way: imagine there’s a town, and three restaurants within a mile or two of each other (call them Harry’s, Yvonne’s and Peter’s) open to serve it. Over time, the town grows and the restaurants expand, with smaller, newer restaurants opening up. It’s generally acknowledged that the original three are tops in town (Harry’s, in particular, is the oldest and largest, and many believe it to be the best), but each has its fans, who point to specific menu items that they believe their preferred restaurant does better than any of the others.
Meanwhile, the town is now a city and has been expanding westward. A rich man living on the western edge thinks his neighbors should be able to get a top meal, prepared somewhat differently, without having to drive across town, so he opens Stan’s. As the population in the western part of the city grows, the quality of Stan’s improves, to the point that now most people in the town think it has four great restaurants.
People in the western part of the city are now really keen to eat at Stan’s, because it’s in their neighborhood and is finally in the same class as the three that they’d have to drive across town for. Seafood’s also trendy now, and Stan’s is especially renowned for how they prepare it. All four of the top restaurants are roughly the same size, but because Stan’s is the only one in the western part of the city, which has been growing faster than the eastern half, and because seafood is so popular now, it’s getting more reservation requests than even Harry’s, and some seafood fans from the eastern part of the city are now willing to drive for miles to eat at Stan’s (even though Harry’s, Yvonne’s and Peter’s all prepare some pretty good seafood too).
Fans of Stan’s say that this proves that Stan’s is clearly the best restaurant in the city, and there are impassioned debates on Restaurant Confidential where they argue: See? Stan’s is now the most popular by far! And in the future, everyone will be eating seafood! Stan’s is now definitely more prestigious than Harry’s, let alone Yvonne’s or Peter’s!
The restaurant critics, though, know that the town has four great restaurants.
These debates about which school historically has produced more presidents or billionaires etc are just ridiculous.
So is trying to decide whether one school has a better undergrad component than another. Undergrads don’t touch the depth of the programs at these schools, and the ability of the upper classman to access the grad programs is available as well. It’s only when selecting a PhD program that the faculty prominence and specialization becomes a factor.
As to geographical skews, that isn’t necessarily created by the preference of students to stay local but rather the admit percentages are also skewed (look at how many NJ admits Princeton has for example). Why? The power of legacies is one reason.
I feel most of these responses come from people that actually haven’t attended these schools, or are stuck in a “mine’s better” debate.
If you are fortunate to have gotten in to one of these schools, that’s amazing. it’s also only the first step in a journey. The difference between them is less than the difference the motivation of the students to make use of the great opportunities within the campus creates.
Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates would have been successful no matter which school they went to.
I wouldn’t have any issue attending any of those four. To have a choice is a high class problem.
@JamesVanc The entire thing you posted is wrong.
For the number of undergrad billionaires it is:
- Penn
2.Harvard - Yale
- USC
5.Stanford - Cornell
- Princeton
Wall street and finance/business are not the same: While you will find way more HYP, Penn and Columbia people east, Stanford dominates business on the west (most major banks have branches in silicon valley and also top PE firms and VCs are located in Sillicon Valley). Most Stanford people choose to stay west.
The colleges (undergrad only) that have produced the most congressmen: Harvard, Yale, Stanford https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/10/28/harvard-stanford-yale-graduate-most-members-of-congress
Colleges that have produced the most US presidents: Harvard >Yale ~ Princeton > Penn > Stanford ~ Columbia
Among your many fine posts, this is one of your best, @DeepBlue86.
Indeed, @Chrchill, which is why I think arguing about them is a waste of time, and I prefer discussions based on verifiable facts. I look forward, for example, to digging into this year’s UChicago admissions statistics, assuming they’re ever released.
Billionaires ranking in Tech-Startup area (undergrad)
- Bill Gates (Harvard)
- Jeff Bezos (Princeton)
- Mark Zukerberg (Harvard)
- Larry Ellison (Chicago)
- Larry Page ( Michigan)
- Sergey Brinn (Maryland)
- Steve Ballmer (Harvard)
- Michael Dell
- Paul Allen
Dustin Moskovitz(Harvard)
Eric Schmidt(Princeton)
None of theses top high tech billionaires are from Stanford undergrad ??? I thought Stanford is known for strong high tech engineering/computer science programs and entrepreneurial mindset. Can anyone explain ? Who is the most successful Stanford undergrad in High-tech startup area ?
1 billion is a high bar, I imagine if you went with a $100M you would see a better presence of Stanford grads.
@arbitrary99 - I wrote a response that touched on your geographic skew point, and deleted half of it accidentally. My point was that the high NJ component at Princeton, similar to the high CA component at Stanford, supports my view that the cross-admit discussion doesn’t reveal much because these schools are largely admitting different groups of students and the numbers of cross-admits are relatively small. I think, too, that, in addition to legacies (and although some Princeton legacies live in NJ, I would guess most don’t), there are also fac brats, and, more importantly, students from local high schools well known to the admissions offices, who often prefer to stay in the area.
@Penn95 How so ? And how do you know the tech bust will not affect Stanford’s numbers ?. I just showed you that when tech/CS was down Stanford’s yield was down in par with YPM. I think your arguments are getting a bit stale by now.
Quoting @bluewater2015
Yes, well said, it is already happening at Stanford. There are many in CS who do not have the skills, but are doing CS because of peer and/or parental pressure. It is quite a struggle for these kids. Like Stanford, Y and P don’t admit to a major, but they require those interested in CS/Engineering to take SAT subject tests in Math 2 and a science (Physics) to demonstrate skills that will ensure success. Though not fool proof it does serve as a check.
@CA94309 lol you don’t seem to get it…i never said a tech bust would not affect the Stanford numbers at all, but it would not affect it a lot since Stanford is top in all fields in addition to tech and it has come to establish itself as the new dream school in the country and the only real competition for Harvard.
The 2006-2007 data you gave are a decade old .They also show that Stanford’s yield (67%) was similar to Princeton (68%) and slightly lower than Yale (70%).
Since then Stanford’s yield has shot to 82%, while Yale and Princeton’s have remained the same. A lot of it had to do with the rise of silicon valley, but if Stanford was not top across the board it would just be seen as a top STEM school like Caltech, and not as one 2 dream schools in the country and the world along with Harvard.
As I said the tech boom enabled Stanford to break out of playing second fiddle to Harvard. The fact that Stanford is an overall top university (much stronger overall than Yale and Princeton, and as strong/slightly stronger than Harvard). will enable it to keep its status even in the event of a tech bust.
You honestly think that most Stanford people who are admitted do not have subject tests? Making it officially mandatory and actually expect candidates to have it it for admission are two separate things.
Also people flocking to CS is a world-wide phenomenon, it is natural for many people to get attracted to the hot thing right now. CS enrollment has increased in most schools.
@JamesVanc
Most of these guys are all older, they were undergrads many decades ago. But do you think it is a coincidence that many/most of them went to Stanford for grad school and that is where they actually met their partners and started building their business?(Their undergrad sschool had much less to do with their success than Stanford). If you actually look at what undergrad schools have the most successful entrepreneurial activity now Stanford comes on top. To reach the level of success these guys have it takes decades and decades.
The following founders are not that old, and still none of them are Stanford undergrads.
Mark Zukerberg (Harvard), Dustin Moskovitz(Harvard), Larry Page (Michigan), Sergey Brinn (Maryland), Nathan Blecharczyk((AirBnB/Harvard)) .
Lets not forget Eduardo Saverin, Chuck Shumner, Al Franken, Matt Damon and Andrew McCollum all Harvard graduates. Sometimes it is not all about money. Sometimes it is about public service
Actually – the truly top billionaires are Harvard drop-outs!