<p>Princeton hands down!
Grade deflation really isnt that bad there according to my friend. That shouldnt be a factor because grad schools will know that it is princeton…</p>
<p>This could be an unfair assessment but the vibe I got when I visited Princeton was that part of the school’s culture was to make school more difficult than it needs to be. There is this notion of the struggling student toiling away. I was looking into the physics dept specificially so I can’t speak for other disciplines, but the physics chair told us that they purposely make problem sets nearly impossible (aka much harder than they need to be) with the intention that it forces students to collaborate and beats the competitiveness out of them. The attitude at Stanford is quite different. The professors here seemed most concerned with helping you learn material that is intrinsically difficult and helping you by not making it any more painful than it actually needs to be. There are several things to take away from this. 1) Princeton students are much more competitive with each other - or at least they are like that when they get there. 2) Princeton keeps its image as a great institution by making you struggle - this can also be seen through things like grade deflation and the senior thesis. It actually isn’t that bad but people love to complain about it. 3) Stanford students don’t need to be forced to collaborate. In every class that it makes sense, I have worked with other students to learn material and finish problem sets without any manipulation by the professors. People here actually want to help each other out. I can’t speak for what Princeton is actually like in this regard as I do not go there.</p>
<p>The moral of this story is that things like grade deflation tell you more about a school than just that your grades will be lower. It speaks to the culture of that school and how academics are treated in general.</p>
<p>^^ I think the above is a good observation, and I will second these assessments as someone who has looked at, for instance, the math departments at several different schools. Supposedly, UChicago’s math department is very high-pressure, is much more exam-based than MIT’s (i.e. MIT’s is more problem set based) – this is just something I read on CC though. </p>
<p>So while MIT is reputed to be tough to do well in, I think there is a collaborative atmosphere similar to what frog believes exists at Stanford (now grossly generalizing to all majors), and the academic culture is different, and frankly to me, more attractive to me than that of UChicago, though I can see why some thrive under that kind of environment. </p>
<p>Different professors have such different attitudes. Some say solving hard problems are the only way to get interesting insight into a subject. Others say medium-tough problems, but with several of them attempted, are much more instructive to the student who is newly learning a subject. I happen to belong to the latter camp.</p>
<p>^I heard Chicago is a great place “if you like studying alone in your room.” And I heard that at places like MIT and Caltech (and I guess Stanford too), collaboration is a huge deal. I guess that supports what everyone mentioned already.</p>
<p>The point is that students should have pressure-free environment when it comes to learning, not like the magnet high school where people try to cut each other’s throat. I had been tested a million times for my three college degrees, never in my life have I just had a chance to take a course and learn something without worried about the grade, or use it for something else. In Princeton, I am sure there is a tendency that students try to pick the professors who are easier on grades, than the one who are truly “good”. This could be less obvious at Stanford.</p>
<p>What about comparing Stanford with a school like Penn or even Brown…in the neurosciences, bio/chem department. Thoughts, ideas?</p>
<p>Yes, school is hard here. Yes, grade deflation is annoying.</p>
<p>I really think people get overwhelmed with schoolwork and become unhappy at any challenging university. It’s not unique. I have too been unhappy with my schoolwork at times, but that doesn’t mean that I’m not happy with everything else. Or that I’m perpetually unhappy with my schoolwork. Grade deflation only really affects the top grades, so it’s not like a B+ is hard to come by. We’re not all scrambling to pass. I don’t know about the sciences, but I have never seen anybody unwilling to cooperate on work. My roommate takes a lot of chem/bio classes and she is constantly going off to “work on a problem set with some people.” There is a very large group of boys that meets in the kitchen downstairs every week to go over the economics problem set for the week. I do my language homework with a friend on most days.</p>
<p>I may be a freshman, but I have a number of senior friends, who are also happy (except for one who isn’t exactly thrilled in the final days of her senior thesis, which is grueling work as you may imagine). </p>
<p>Grade deflation isn’t killing all of our chances to go on with our lives after college. We won’t be left destitute asking for money on street corners. Really, we’ll be fine. </p>
<p>While it is a concern in terms of competition for grad school, med school, and law school, it really isn’t as huge of a deal as some people make it out to be.</p>
<p>@Princeton12, thanks for your honest replies. I am sure you are fine, so are many others at Princeton who are as good as the ones in any universities. What I tried to say was the school policy should be friendlier towards better grades for the student. Education should give the student knowledge which many may give back to the teacher at the end of the semester; confidence which the student should have to solve any problems once they leave the school; and finally good grades which provide the student more open doors in the future.</p>
<p>To piggy back on what everyone else is saying, I came from a suburban, ultra-competitive hs in NJ which, almost perennially (except for my year haha), sent its top students to Princeton. I came into Stanford with the mindset (grades, grades, grades) and I think that was my biggest mistake freshman year, and although it is really hard to get rid of that mindset when it’s been ingrained in you for four (really more than that) years, Stanford is doing a great job to help me pick classes that I enjoy versus those to maximize my GPA while fulfilling requirements-not because of grade inflation per se-but the environment here. I guess I can’t honestly say to myself that I am at that point where I pick classes fully for learning, but I have made great strides from when I came in here in September.</p>
<p>for I-banking, Princeton > > > Stanford (that’s where the money is)</p>
<p>Stanford has a reputation for admitting lots of athletes and URMS: SAT range of 2010-2300</p>
<p>Princeton: 2090-2360 (source: collegeboard.com)</p>
<p>Sure, Stanford has a higher yield and lower acceptance rate, but the truth is that they receive so many applications due to 1) location 2) football fame 3) grade inflation ([Stanford[/url</a>] the latest was in 2005, latest average is assumed to be around 3.6 - 3.7)</p>
<p>Princeton has such a low yield due to the fact it has no EA / ED program, although grade deflation does come into play. Sure, you have to work harder and compete–but that’s what it’s like in the real world and that’s why employers flock to Princeton and the alumni end up with the most success.</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-private-universities.asp]Top”>Best Private Schools | Payscale]Top</a> Private Universities By Salary Potential](<a href=“http://gradeinflation.com/Stanford.html]Stanford[/url”>Stanford)</p>
<p>Also, guess where the last three supreme court justices went for undergrad?</p>
<p>^ All you said could be true as I am too lazy to verify them, but for class of 2014, Stanford won the cross-admits over Princeton by 66% to 34%. :< </p>
<p>That also explained the low yield, don’t you think?</p>
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<p>That may be part of the reason, but Harvard doesn’t have an EA/ED program either, and its yield for last year was about 76%, vs. about 54% for Princeton. Grade deflation has some role in this, but surely isn’t the only significant factor. Princeton continues to suffer from a snootiness reputation that probably overstates the current case, and also from the perception, mentioned by other posters, that it’s not much fun to attend. Since there’s no doubt about the stellar academics at Princeton, it seems to be primarily an image/marketing problem.</p>
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<p>Both Princeton and Stanford are equally recruited for i-banking. Regional differences account for numerical differences (if any). Not to mention, there’s this thing called Silicon Valley.</p>
<p>Over the years, more than a few Princeton i-bankers have helped Stanford entrepreneurs take their companies public. Thanks for your assistance.</p>
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<p>Princeton also has tons of athletes. Except they suck compared to their Stanford counterparts. Princeton also has URMs, but unfortunately, some of them may shy away due to Princeton’s reputation for being unwelcoming to minorities. Until fairly recently, many of them were essentially excluded from your “exclusive” Eating Clubs. At Stanford, students dine with whomever they choose and get along with each other regardless of race or class.</p>
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<p>1) California > New Jersey
2) 11-1 > 1-9 (We are going to a BCS bowl game and beat USC, ND et al. You got abused by Colgate (!!!) among others. Also, nice of you to go winless in the Ivy League.)
3) :)</p>
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<p>The last year (2007) that Princeton had BINDING Early Decision, its yield was 67.7%, which is lower than Stanford’s current yield of 72%.</p>
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<p>At least two of them only had the opportunity to serve because ex-Chief Justice Rehnquist (Stanford BA, JD) and ex-Associate Justice O’Connor (Stanford BA, JD) retired. Breyer (Stanford BA) is still on the Court.</p>
<p>Speaking of the branches of government, Stanford is the 2nd most representated college with 11 undergraduate alumni (5 of whom are Senators). Princeton did not make the top 10 in terms of college representation.</p>
<p><a href=“http://politics.usnews.com/news/slideshows/the-top-10-colleges-for-members-of-congress/[/url]”>http://politics.usnews.com/news/slideshows/the-top-10-colleges-for-members-of-congress/</a></p>
<p>[Grafton:</a> Welcome to Princeford - The Daily Princetonian](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/10/26/24264/]Grafton:”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/10/26/24264/)</p>
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<p>You need to “work harder” on your ■■■■■■■■. You didn’t even “compete.”</p>
<p>i’m currently a student at stanford, so this message may be biased but here’s what i have to say. also, i didn’t read through all of the thread so i apologize if i repeat anything.</p>
<p>first, stanford is the greatest place on earth. but thats the biased part.</p>
<p>seriously, though, you mention that your son is a fuzzy/techy mix, interested in both the sciences and the humanities. in that case, stanford really is the greatest place on earth. here is why, related specifically to you and your son:</p>
<p>1) interdisciplinary study. by far the most tolerant than any other school i’ve visited or know of.<br>
2) the best of both worlds. we have the best psychology department in the country, as well as the best CS department. we are really all fuzzy and techie at the same time.<br>
3) we have some of the best academics in the country (there really is no difference between us, the ivies, northwestern, etc). each has specific strengths and weaknesses
4) best place on earth. if your son loves to learn, and is intellectually curious than any of the top tier schools will suit him. but if he also LOVES to have fun, and is a caring and compassionate person, this is the place for him. the east coast ivies have a rather snobby atmosphere, nobody can deny that. and it doesn’t exist here.
5) quarters! didn’t look at princeton, so not sure of its calendar, but stanford is on the quarter system. especially for someone interested in many different areas, this is perfect. it provides the opportunity for SO MANY more classes over the course of four years.
6) don’t ever think that because stanford is laid back that it is not demanding! like i said before, it is just as demanding as any of the ivies are. you can’t get away with slacking. and everyone is here for the same reason; we are all nerds, and we all know that sometimes, you just can’t hangout. you need to get work done. there’s no peer pressure</p>
<p>basically, the choice is quite simple in my opinion. go card.</p>
<p>“Speaking of the branches of government, Stanford is the 2nd most representated college with 11 undergraduate alumni (5 of whom are Senators). Princeton did not make the top 10 in terms of college representation.”</p>
<p>Congressional representation varies quite a bit due to elections every two years. Many other private schools tend to “beat” Princeton in these rankings because they consider both the graduate and undergraduate education of those elected; since Princeton is primarily undergraduate, it is underrepresented in that sense. Also, Princeton has a relatively small student body compared to Stanford, Harvard, and so forth. </p>
<p>1) California > New Jersey
2) 11-1 > 1-9 (We are going to a BCS bowl game and beat USC, ND et al. You got abused by Colgate (!!!) among others. Also, nice of you to go winless in the Ivy League.)
3) :)</p>
<p>I’m not disagreeing, you simply validated my point as to why it has a lower acceptance rate / higher yield; however, such factors do not indicate which school provides the best education. </p>
<p>“Princeton also has tons of athletes. Except they suck compared to their Stanford counterparts…”</p>
<p>Lame excuse for score difference? Sure, our athletes suck, but it’s because they are students before athletes. Athletic superiority has nothing to do with education value–it just means a school is willing to take spots from students who come to study and give them to brainless–albeit athletically superior–football players who manage in the 1500 - 1700 range of their SAT.</p>
<p>What I’ve said pretty much speaks for itself here:
[Top</a> Private Universities By Salary Potential](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-private-universities.asp]Top”>Best Private Schools | Payscale)</p>
<p>The age of Stanford billionaire entrepreneurs was a short lived one, and is long over…you can say “Stanford IS teh best evah!” all you want, but the numbers speak for themselves. </p>
<p>Princeton:
SAT Critical Reading: 690 - 790<br>
SAT Math: 700 - 790<br>
SAT Writing: 700 - 780</p>
<p>Stanford:
SAT Critical Reading: 660 - 760<br>
SAT Math: 680 - 780<br>
SAT Writing: 670 - 760 </p>
<p>Scores may not be everything, but a higher quality student body is more sought after by employers, and thus paid more.</p>
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Even if were point about Princeton having a stronger student body were true, there are a lot more considerations than that for recruiting. That’s why students from schools like UofI are so sought after by recruiters.</p>
<p>Either way, Stanford and Princeton are both more than fine in terms of access to the upper-echelon of white collar jobs. Location plays the biggest factor in my opinion in terms of job outcomes. Stanford graduates tend to stick in Silicon Valley or downtown SF. I don’t know about Princeton, but I’d bet a lot of them stay out east. I think it has to do a lot with where your friends are going, already knowing the area, exposure with summer jobs and such, networking, etc. </p>
<p>So if you know for sure you want to live/work in NYC after college, schools like Columbia and Princeton would be better for achieving that goal. It’s not like a Stanford grad can’t work in NYC and Princeton grads can’t work out here, as a few Stanford seniors I know will be working in Manhattan and I know some Silicon Valley programmers from schools like MIT and Carnegie Mellon. But I get the sense that’s not very common.</p>
<p>All this talk about football players being “inferior” students is bull****, at least at Stanford. I’m not on the football team, but if you look at Stanford’s players, they’re anything but stupid. Our two all-star players Toby Gerhart (graduated last year) and Andrew Luck (current quarterback) were both valedictorians of their high school and were/are engineering/science majors. </p>
<p>The fact that Stanford managed to become 4th in the country at football AND has a valedictorian as the quarterback I think speaks volumes. Princeton only wishes it could accomplish the same thing.</p>
<p>Princeton, hands-down. Greater emphasis on the undergraduate experience and a president dedicated to elevating their baccalaureate program to the caliber of Swarthmore’s (a direct quote, BTW) and other SLAC’s.</p>