Starting Pre-Med Late

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
1

<p>I will be a sophomore this fall at the University of Pennsylvania and I am strongly considering going pre-med. The problem is that I have not taken any of my sciences at the college level. (I have already had two semesters of calculus and one semester of statistics however). I would like to get started with chemistry this fall. I also would like to be able to start med school after four years of undergrad. Fortunately, I'm not planning on being a science major but i plan to major in either economics or international relations. </p>

<p>what courses should i complete before taking my MCAT? So far, I was going to take these courses before the MCAT:</p>

<p>gen chem 1
gen chem 2
ochem 1
ochem 2
bio 1
bio 2
phys 1</p>

<p>Would that be adequate preparation with a solid MCAT prep course? I've read on this forum that MCAT physics is very basic, so I was thinking of only taking one semester before I take the MCAT. Also, is molecular biology covered on the MCAT or can I take that after I've completed the MCAT as well. </p>

<p>Finally, how should I structure my schedule. This was my plan so far with only the relavent classes, tell me if this works:</p>

<p>Freshman
fall: calc 1
spring: calc 2, stat </p>

<p>Sophomore
fall: chem 1, bio 1
spring: chem 2, bio 2
summer: research</p>

<p>Junior
fall: ochem 1, phys 1
spring: ochem 2, MCAT prep
summer: MCAT prep</p>

<p>Senior:
fall: MCAT
spring: mbio, phys 2</p>

<p>if you've made it this far, congratulations. Seriously though, how plausable is this. Also, would taking the MCAT in the fall of my senior year still allow me to begin med school the fall after I graduate? </p>

<p>Thanks so much in advance for any advice!</p>

2

<p>There's a few relatively minor concerns, but certainly starting one year late is not a problem. I do think you're likely to need/want more than two semesters of bio, and I do think you should either take both or none of physics before the MCAT. I'm not sure exactly what your MBio class will cover, so I can't speak to that.</p>

<p>The reality is that you're going to have to do one of two things: apply a year late or condense your schedule more than normal. Either of those is a fine option.</p>

<p>Whether you should take both physics or neither depends on your high school background, but I think it's very unlikely that your E&M is fine but your mechanics isn't. If anything, you should take physics 2 but delay 1. It's not the MCAT physics is remedial - i.e. it really does cover all of intro physics - it's just that it's relatively simple.</p>

<p>As for Bio 1 and 2, you need to tell us more about what these classes are. I think Physiology, Cell Biology, and Genetics are all relatively important, while Diversity and Evolution (Bio 2 at my school) are not.</p>

<p>I strongly recommend against taking the MCAT that late. The normal time is April of your junior year, and in your case you could even push that back to June or - if you really must - August, which will significantly harm your application already. Pushing it back any later than that starts to become a very large liability.</p>

3

<p>I would advise you to talk to or email the premed advisor ASAP. You can take O chem AND do research in the summer to free some time up in your junior year for more prerequisite courses.My son's GF did this at Penn.</p>

4

<p>Oh, right. We were just discussing this on the other board and it had completely skipped my mind. My apologies.</p>

<p>Do still try to hold down an EC while/if you take summer classes.</p>

5

<p>thanks guys! already, this is very helpful</p>

6

<p>I agree look at summer school. Giving up a summer could get you over the hump. Don't assume any part of the test is a lock, get what classes you can in.</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
I will be a sophomore this fall at the University of Pennsylvania and I am strongly considering going pre-med. The problem is that I have not taken any of my sciences at the college level. (I have already had two semesters of calculus and one semester of statistics however). I would like to get started with chemistry this fall. I also would like to be able to start med school after four years of undergrad. Fortunately, I'm not planning on being a science major but i plan to major in either economics or international relations. </p>

<p>what courses should i complete before taking my MCAT? So far, I was going to take these courses before the MCAT

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Maybe I simply have a different perspective on this, but I would assert that you really can learn most if not all of what you need to know for the MCAT simply via self-study. Perhaps I've just had unusually poorly taught undergrad classes, or maybe I'm just really good at learning things on my own time, but I believe that in many cases, it's actually better to just get the textbook and read it on your own time than to take a class, as that often times tends to be a more efficient way to learn something. </p>

<p>Specifically, what self-study can do for you is that it eliminates all of the time-wasting activities that most formal classes have you do. I'll give you a prime example - labs. To be perfectly honest, most undergrad science labs do not really add value to the educational experience. All they really seem to do is just consume a lot of time without actually teaching you anything that you actually need to know for the MCAT. I remember taking OChem, and the labs would take up an entire afternoon (from 1-5 PM). Add in the pre-lab discussion (from 12-1), as well as all the time spent preparing lab pre- and post-reports, and that's basically throwing away an entire day of the week just on the lab for just one class (and I had several other classes to do too, and some of them had labs too). I don't mind using up a whole day if I was actually learning something that I could use, but the truth is, that wasn't happening. The truth is, you don't really need to know any of those things that were taught in the lab. The MCAT is not going to have you perform lab experiments. The MCAT is not going to ask you questions on lab technique. Frankly, you would have been better off taking that whole day you spend doing labwork and instead using it to study the textbook. But as it stands, undergrad science classes basically force you to throw away time on the lab. Via self-study, you can actually spend your time on learning things that will actually be on the MCAT, as opposed to being forced to waste time on things that are not on the MCAT. Labwork is not a value-added exercise. If anything, it's actually a 'value-subtracted' exercise because it takes away from the time you could have spent in just studying. </p>

<p>There's nothing on the MCAT that is so profoundly difficult that you couldn't just learn it yourself on your own time. If you make a bona-fide effort to learn an MCAT subject, and you still don't understand it, well, the truth is, taking a class probably isn't going to help you that much either.</p>

8

<p>From your perspective, you seem to suggest there's no need to even go to college, just self study is sufficient.
Sakky, have you taken the MCAT? Are you basing your observations from experience ? I am not aware that pre-med chemistry courses don't require labs.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
From your perspective, you seem to suggest there's no need to even go to college, just self study is sufficient.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There are many countries around the world where doctors do not "need" to go to college. Rather, students in those countries enter med-school right after high school (or whatever is their equivalent organization). </p>

<p>But more to the point, I think people have a grave underestimation of the power of self-study. Classes are not the only way to learn something, and truth be told, for many people, they are a rather inefficient way to learn something. And truth be told, if you don't have the ability to learn something by yourself through self-study, you are going to be a quite bad doctor. As a doctor, you are going to be expected to constantly learn new medical techniques, new pathologies, new courses of treatments, new everything, and if you can learn new things only within a classroom environment, you are not going to be a very successful doctor. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Sakky, have you taken the MCAT? Are you basing your observations from experience ?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, let me ask you this? If I were to tell you that I in fact have had substantial experience with the MCAT, would it change your mind? No, probably not, right? So why are you even raising the issue? You seem to have already made up your mind. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I am not aware that pre-med chemistry courses don't require labs.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And that's my point EXACTLY. At most schools, premed courses DO require labs, and these labs don't add value. They are not a value-added exercise, and merely serve to waste time, because you're not actually learning anything you need to know for MCAT by doing a lab. The MCAT doesn't test you on lab skills or lab knowledge. Everything you need to know for the MCAT is in the books. Hence, you would be better off not doing the lab, and instead spending that time studying the books. Since that's, sadly, usually not an option, because premed classes tend to be package deals of both the lecture and the lab, a more optimal choice would then be for you to just self-study the class, hence skipping the time-wasting lab aspects. </p>

<p>It is true that med-schools require that you take premed classes before you matriculate. But that's not the same thing as saying that you have to take them before you apply. There is a long gap between when you apply to med-schools and when you matriculate. Hence, if need be, you can stuff some of your premed classes (along with the labs) into that time gap. </p>

<p>Look, my point is this. I am not suggesting that EVERYBODY should just run out to self-study everything. I am saying that self-study is an option. You don't always need to take a class in order to learn something. Sometimes just studying the textbook on your own time is good enough. Furthermore, a lot of premed classes are, quite frankly, poorly taught. Taking a formal class doesn't mean that you are actually going to know that subject. If the professor is a bad teacher (as many profs are), you're not going to learn very much, and you would almost certainly have learned more just by reading the book yourself.</p>

10

<p>This is where I disagree with sakky. If you have taken Chem AP, Physics AP, BioAP and are in desperation mode, you might be able to get away with studying for the MCAT w/o having taken those courses in college (you would obviously still need to take them eventually). However, that is not optimal. </p>

<p>I would say that of all the lab courses, orgo lab is actually most important. The stuff covered in it (distillation, crystallation, extraction, as well as spectroscopy stuff) ARE on the MCAT. I firmly believe in doing well in undergrad courses with self-study as simply a supplement. I started off at a 30 on my diagnostic and used my MCAT studying to add a few pts to my final score. You don't want to start off at a 15 and end up having to improve 15 points soley through self-study. Yes it is an option. But not a very good one.</p>

11

<p>
[quote]
This is where I disagree with sakky. If you have taken Chem AP, Physics AP, BioAP and are in desperation mode, you might be able to get away with studying for the MCAT w/o having taken those courses in college (you would obviously still need to take them eventually). However, that is not optimal

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You're taking an extreme position. By self-study, I am not saying that you have to self-study EVERY course. This is not an all-or-nothing deal. I am saying that you can use self-study as backfill. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I would say that of all the lab courses, orgo lab is actually most important. The stuff covered in it (distillation, crystallation, extraction, as well as spectroscopy stuff) ARE on the MCAT.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What I am getting at is that you don't actually have to do the labs in order to be able to answer MCAT test questions. The MCAT is not going to have you actually perform an actual lab experiment. Whatever you need to know about the lab can be learned by simply studying an MCAT test-prep book. Actually performing the labs are therefore a poor use of your time. In the 8 years you might spend actually doing a lab (actually pre and post writeups), you could have been studying one of those Kaplan's MCAT testprep books and learned everything that you needed to know. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I firmly believe in doing well in undergrad courses with self-study as simply a supplement. I started off at a 30 on my diagnostic and used my MCAT studying to add a few pts to my final score. You don't want to start off at a 15 and end up having to improve 15 points soley through self-study. Yes it is an option. But not a very good one.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You have an implicit assumption here in your argument, which is that your class is going to be well taught. The truth of the matter is that a lot of premed courses are poorly taught. I have personally endured some horrifically taught classes - so poor that the comparison of whether it would be better to go to lecture or just stay at home and read the book yourself is not a close call by any means. From what I have seen, this extends even more so to lab sections. Maybe it's my bad luck, but all lab sections I have ever took added no value simply because they were taught by a listless and harried GSI who didn't know and didn't really want to know how to teach. </p>

<p>My point is, it should not be assumed that a class is automatically better than self-study if, for no other reason, there are a lot of poorly taught classes out there. Sad to say, but it's true. A poorly taught class is not going to be better than self-study. The mere act of sitting in a class with a prof speaking at a blackboard is not going to automatically make you learn the material. If the prof cannot convey himself in a comprehensible manner, if the prof has not bothered to prepare decent lecture materials, if the prof has little enthusiasm for the material, if the prof basically cannot or does not want to be a good teacher, then you're not going to learn very much, and certainly not as much as if you had just read a textbook yourself. And sadly, there are a lot of profs who are like that.</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
The truth of the matter is that a lot of premed courses are poorly taught. I have personally endured some horrifically taught classes...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The proportion of poorly-taught classes is much higher at some schools than others. If I remember correctly, sakky's school has a higher-than-normal proportion, at least relative to schools like mine, NCG's, and CB's PFDIL.</p>

13

<p>It's obvious from Sakky's posts that he doesn't mention specifics pertaining to the questions of MCAT itself relative to class information.</p>

<p>[flame comment edited out - Mod JEM]</p>

14

<p>Hi CB,</p>

<p>There are definitely times when I think sakky is wrong, or too cynical, or overreliant on one particular source (a particular dude from Stanford/UCSF), but he does work hard to explain himself clearly and relies very heavily on published data.</p>

<p>Disagreeing with him is of course par for the course, but I do think that it may be appropriate to discuss his arguments as such rather than worrying about his general "credibility".</p>

<p>And in case anybody thinks I have an agenda in posting this, I very much do: I find sakky to be a valuable source of information, even when I disagree with his philosophy, and hope very seriously that he will not become frustrated and give up on premed boards entirely.</p>

15

<p>If you really want to finish in four years then you should just do orgo over the summer between sophomore and junior year. That way you can take the MCAT in your junior year just after you finish physics in may or june when its computerized. You could do research with orgo but you dont want your orgo grades to suffer. You dont want to self-study if you don't have to. Esp. if you go to penn where they teach the material so well</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
Disagreeing with him is of course par for the course, but I do think that it may be appropriate to discuss his arguments as such rather than worrying about his general "credibility".

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I actually take attacks like this as a paradoxical vote of confidence. It's one thing to either have been shown to have had bad data, or to have had interpreted the data incorrectly. I have sometimes done this, and I have acknowledged my mistakes when this happens. It's quite another thing to be told that you "don't have credibility" or some other sort of ad-hominem attack. That basically means that "we don't question your data, we don't question your data analysis, we just don't like who you are". In other words, what that means is that my data and data analysis are going unchallenged, which must mean that it's probably valid data and analysis. </p>

<p>But again, I would repeat, if you disagree with what I am saying, then fine. I have no problem with disagreement. After all, that's what a discussion board is for. If we all agreed on everything, there would be nothing to discuss. Tell me where my data is wrong, or where my analysis is wrong. If you can't do that or don't want to do that, well, I don't know what to tell you.</p>

17

<p>I subscribe to the extreme position that self study is the most efficient means of learning well-described, straight forward material -- for instance, pre-med level math and science. In fact, anyone with a solid high school AP science background ought to be able to self study "pre-med" material well enough to do well on the MCAT.</p>

<p>Medical school, residency, and boards preparation all rely on self-study. While lectures are the most common means of instruction for undergraduates, they are neither efficient or unique.</p>

18

<p>Still my two cents, it pays to have taken a college level class in organic for example, because the thorough understanding you get from it will help you in the mcats. That's my personal belief. The more you understand, the beter you should do on test day.</p>