State schools, private schools, and you.

<p>I've been browsing/posting on CC for several months now, and while I find 95% of the information and discussion extremely helpful, there are several things that bother me.</p>

<p>First, I want to say that I am 27, and have worked in the IT industry-alongside graduates of all levels (undergrad, grad, doc). I've worked many jobs, I've networked myself out, and have met people from all walks of life.</p>

<p>Why do you want to go to college? Hopefully it's your future career and life you're thinking about, not frat parties and sucking down a beer bong. College sets you into a field doing what you want to do, who you want to be for the rest of your life. This is important! I've seen people who are choosing majors based on money, a parent's pushing, the "prestiege," or because they feel it's all they can do.</p>

<p>DO NOT CHOOSE A MAJOR BECAUSE OF THOSE REASONS. </p>

<p>I spent years in a community college and am graduating with a degree in IT and Business. I began to take this because I was in IT before, and felt a degree would make me more money. However I was ignoring what I wanted to do, which was a field that won't pay nearly as much. I won't get into it because it's not the point of this thread. If you want to know, search my posts.</p>

<p>State schools are not crap. If you know your major, do some research as to the top schools that do it. In my field, the top 3 schools are Oklahoma, Penn State, and Millersville. ALL STATE SCHOOLS. Harvard and Yale are much lower on the list, under other state schools like UND, UNC, FSU, and even CU @ Boulder.</p>

<p>I see a lot of people pulling thier hair out, they see people with EC's up the rear, perfect grades, insanely high SAT/ACT scores, and are the perfect student. Unfortunately the majority of the world does not consist of that. Most people, and maybe the person reading this thread, may have had <em>meh</em> grades in highschool. Maybe your SAT wasn't hot, and you only did a couple ECs. Don't think that you need to apply to a super reach, or that you're in any way less than someone trying to go to Harvard.</p>

<p>In the "Job World" where you went to college means nothing. Sure, there are some cases where some 'elite brotherhood/sisterhood' might give preference to an Ivy school. Maybe some people would O_O when they see a degree from an Ivy. But what matters in this "Job World" is not where you went to school. Because once you are out the school means nothing. What you learned, and what you know is what matters.</p>

<p>In my field of study, it would not phase me to go up against someone from Yale in an interview process...why? because as long as I can show I can use what I learned to perform my job better I know I can get the job. The person from Yale may have not been so bold to learn as much.</p>

<p>The quality of education depends on the school's rank in the major, not the reputation of the school in its entirety.</p>

<p>Consider this when making your school decision. Do not stress over getting into a school for the wrong reasons. Do not be sad or feel like you settled for a state school.</p>

<p>This advice will not be for everyone. This advice may not fit many of the people on this site. This site seems to have a lot of Ivy flavor to it, however the huge majority around here are not superstudents.</p>

<p>So I ask CC, please ease up on the condescending nature towards these "lesser" schools. Because elite overall does not always mean the best.</p>

<p>I may get flamed for this post, and personally I don't care. This is reality.</p>

<p>Touche, my fellow poster. Touche. (sorry dont know how to make the little french symbol thing)</p>

<p>I love my state school!</p>

<p>It's all about fit...</p>

<p>I think it's all about justifying the choices you have made for college. Those who spend thousands on SAT prep, private high schools, "admissions" counselors, and finally $150,000++ need to believe they have done the right thing, made the right choice. So they preach the private route and why it is better.</p>

<pre><code>Those that choose state college need to do the same thing. Convince themselves that they made the right choice no matter what.That saving money is worthwhile, that "prestige" is not important. It's just human nature.

Then there is the whole SAT score b.s.. People who score a 1400 think they are "smarter/better/more something" than people who score a 1200. Again human nature. But it's a test...one you can study for and get better scores. If you had a test that tested for common sense or your ability to get along with people from all walks of life or who has the most charisma you would see totally different people at the "head" of the line. So higher SAT scores mean what?
</code></pre>

<p>Well, I have finally come to the conclusion that none of it really matters in the long run. There is no right or wrong choice. There is just your individual journey in life and who you are as a person and your personal growth. Find your path and find a way to leave the world a better place than when you arrived. That is really all there is to it.</p>

<p>Don't go to private schools. It's a waste of money.</p>

<p>xanthom,</p>

<p>That's a blanket statement that's awfully hard to support. Many private schools offer fantastic aid to admits that publics cannot afford. I've met many people who choose privates based on aid packages despite wanting to attend one of the top publics.</p>

<p>Well most of them don't, and people are better off going to a public school and getting better grades.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Don't go to private schools. It's a waste of money.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is just as bad... the point of this thread was to remove overgeneralizations.</p>

<p>It was for people to think when they post chances threads to not take up typical HYSBC schools just because they see others doing it.</p>

<p>to not think they <em>should</em> go there because a state school is somehow inferior.</p>

<p>someone said fit-exactly. However we're talking about choices one shoots for, not a final decision.</p>

<p>ok, here's a question. How do i search for the top schools for a particular major? Say i want to find the top schools, listed by rank, for computer science OR film production. Of course, the best and the privy's are going to be first, but where do i go to find this list that will show me the lower level schools, or even just the ones in my state?</p>

<p>It's arguable with film whether privates are always going to be first. UCLA is no slouch in film and is a public. Furthermore, Cal is fantastic for computer science and isn't a private.</p>

<p>My only problem is that i'm a transfer student from a tennesee community college. I applied to UCLA and berkely for film and CS respectivley, (hoping when i send in my sat in jan. it will help) but i need to consider lower on the tier for each subject to keep it real.</p>

<p>I agreed with nearly everything you said except I feel a little differently about the following:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Why do you want to go to college? Hopefully it's your future career and life you're thinking about, not frat parties and sucking down a beer bong. College sets you into a field doing what you want to do, who you want to be for the rest of your life.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would amend this to the following, based on my experiences with many people in CC/college/grad/med schools...</p>

<p>Community college -- you go here so you can transfer to a university</p>

<p>University, undergrad level -- step one; you're here for the traditional college experience everybody talks about, to be taught a basic vocabulary/familiarity with procedures in a field you're interested in, and to get a piece of paper saying you can go on to step two</p>

<p>University, grad level -- step two; this is where you get the real training to "set you into a field doing what you want to do (and become) who you want to be for the rest of your life."</p>

<p>That is a more apt description. Bachelor degrees don't get you very far anymore except in a handful of fields.</p>

<p>Good post overall. Couple of small things (from my point of view at a private institution):</p>

<p>


Very true. Most people, though, who are intelligent enough to get into a top school know this, and the reason they go is because they believe (whether correct or not) that they will get actually learn the most at a top ranked school. I think the degree to which that is actually true depends on the major and the school.</p>

<p>


First, not everyone knows exactly what they want to major in (or they anticipate a possibility for change), and so going to a good all-around school allows for some flexibility. Second, most of the department rankings are either for grad programs or are based off of research, and depending on the field, that may or may not greatly impact undergraduate learning. Third, I feel that the quality of your collegiate peers can be very important to your overall undergraduate experience - overall school rankings usually take this into consideration, while deparment rankings usually do not.</p>

<p>Just go to the school that best caters to your needs, whether it be private or public.</p>

<p>cghen,</p>

<p>Excellent points. I think that many people go onto CC.com, see department rankings, and think, "Well, that must be the best place for my major!" That overlooks many of the great LACs and ignores the fact that major hopping is prevalent in undergrad.</p>

<p>No one has addressed how to search for your best department. Is it organized somewhere? Or is the only option a haphazard treasure hunt through CC.com? :)</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>rankings by major are subjective, you need to ask around, talk to people in the field, and make your own assertions. I've talked to many meteorologists, and researched the programs. It's not going to be like US NEws where they crunch numbers. Look at what they have to offer, the number of graduate students from the programs, and the actual course listings. I have put roughly 40 hours or so just in comparing the programs.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>While I agree, I'm not going to edit my post because this is an ammendum. A community college though isn't always to tranfer, that's a Junior college. A community college is good for those who want a boost, need to get back into it after an absense from school (like adult students) or for small "pick up" classes.</p>

<p>Bachelor degrees you are right about, they are general and more to prep you for grad school or more focused training. My suggestion is for people to go for at least one Masters.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>I also read your other part of the post, so I'll refer to that as well... "most" people on cc are either ********ting on what they have done, or they represent a minority of the people that visit here. If someone took the chances threads here and didn't realize how Ivy-focused CC was they'd think they were a failure.</p>

<p>What you need to find in relation of an undergrad program if you don't know what you want to major in is something that caters to your general fields of interest. It's not uncommon for someone to change thier mind, however the point of my post was not only about chosing a school based on major, it was regarding the overall impression that state schools are crap and that going to one only means you couldn't get into something better... What brought this topic on was several posts here where a person actually would say, "settle for a state school" or "...I'm scared I'll end up at a crappy state school." No these are not out of context, many on here believe that if you settle for a state school you failed.</p>

<p>[willpower102]No one has addressed how to search for your best department. Is it organized somewhere? Or is the only option a haphazard treasure hunt through CC.com? :)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>you won't find the answer just here, expand your search to the programs themselves, the grad school possibilities, the fit of the school, ask others in the field, and look for articles. Look for research projects done, look for reports made by the school, etc.</p>

<p>JCampbell, Thank you for this post. I had a similar talk with my daughter just yesterday, as she is extremely disappointed that she will not be able to go to Yale, which has been her dream through high school. There is so much pressure put on these kids today that they feel their self worth is tied to how prestigious a college they are accepted to. It's hard to get them to see the big picture.</p>

<p>
[quote]
State schools are not crap. If you know your major, do some research as to the top schools that do it. In my field, the top 3 schools are Oklahoma, Penn State, and Millersville. ALL STATE SCHOOLS. Harvard and Yale are much lower on the list, under other state schools like UND, UNC, FSU, and even CU @ Boulder.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, first off, I don't think anybody here who has seriously thought about the issue is asserting that state schools are all crap. Berkeley, for example, is a darn fine school - clearly within the top 1-2% of all schools in the country for undergrad, and probably within the top 3 in the country for your PhD. Berkeley is clearly better than the vast majority of private schools out there. </p>

<p>
[quote]
The quality of education depends on the school's rank in the major, not the reputation of the school in its entirety.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But this, I am afraid that I can't agree with. You say that you want to avoid overgeneralizations. But this, right here, is an overgeneralization. Let's use Berkeley (Cal) as an example. I and many others have noticed that Cal football players generally tend to cluster in the same majors. For example, things like American Studies, Ethnic Studies, Sociology, Social Welfare, and so on. All of these departments at Berkeley are highly ranked. But come on, do you really think that all of these players are in those majors for the education? Seriously. Come on, Cal is a major football school, and like any other major football school, has players who are only interested in making it to the NFL. According to the Wall Street Journal, Cal is the 20th most successful school in sending players to the NFL.</p>

<p><a href="http://online.wsj.com:80/public/resources/documents/retro-collegefootball0608.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://online.wsj.com:80/public/resources/documents/retro-collegefootball0608.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Furthermore, Cal football players almost never major in engineering or computer science, despite those being some of the most popular majors at Cal for non-football-players. I think most people who know Cal know what's really going on here. These players aren't really that interested in getting educated. They just want to major in something easy so that they can stay eligible to play without needing to study that much in order to maximize their shot at getting to the NFL. </p>

<p>Nor do I mean to single out Cal. You can look at other major football programs at top schools and see the same thing. Stanford is indisputably an elite school that is also a NFL factory (Stanford had a bad season, but they are #30 in producing NFL players according to the WSJ), but again, a lot of Stanford football players are prioritizing football over academics. Michigan, UCLA, Texas, Wisconsin, Iowa, Washington, Purdue, North Carolina, USC, Notre Dame, Penn State, Texas A&M, etc. - all fine schools whose football players are generally not all that dedicated to academics. </p>

<p>So what's the relevance of all this. Simple. Just because a school has a top-ranked program in some discipline doesn't mean that that program forces its students to study hard or learn much. A lot of players just skate by, doing the bare minimum, and they still manage to pass their classes and stay eligible anyway, simply because you can do very little work in these classes and still pass. It also means that YOU as an individual student may not learn that much in those programs. For example, even if a program is highly ranked, if a lot of students in the program are not motivated to learn, don't really want to be there, and are just there to pick up an easy passing grade without doing much work, then you are most likely not going to learn much either. This happens for sociological reasons. When you are surrounded by unmotivated students, you will tend to become unmotivated yourself. </p>

<p>To give you a case in point, I know a guy at Cal who took one of these classes in an "high-ranked" program. He never showed up to class. He also never did any of the reading. The course grading was based on 2 papers from the reading. But instead of actually doing the reading, all he did was go to Amazon.com and look up the user reviews of those books, and then stitched together 2 papers by restating those user reviews in his own words. He ended up with an A- in the class. He didn't learn anything, he didn't * want * to learn anything, and he was laughing at how easy it was for him to get a high grade for doing almost nothing. </p>

<p>The point of this is that I think it's an overgeneralization to say that the quality of the education depends on the school's ranking in the major, rather than the school's overall ranking. At least an overall highly ranked school provides the assurance to an employer that the guy was at least good enough to get admitted to the school. Low-ranked schools don't even provide that assurance. Graduating from a high-ranked program also does not always provide assurance that the guy actually learned much or studied much, as evidenced by the examples above. Like I said, in many of these programs, you can do very little work and know very little about your field, and still graduate. </p>

<p>
[quote]
In the "Job World" where you went to college means nothing. Sure, there are some cases where some 'elite brotherhood/sisterhood' might give preference to an Ivy school. Maybe some people would O_O when they see a degree from an Ivy. But what matters in this "Job World" is not where you went to school. Because once you are out the school means nothing. What you learned, and what you know is what matters.</p>

<p>In my field of study, it would not phase me to go up against someone from Yale in an interview process...why? because as long as I can show I can use what I learned to perform my job better I know I can get the job. The person from Yale may have not been so bold to learn as much.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>While I sympathisize with this notion, the major issue with it is that you can't even get an interview with many of the top employers if you didn't go to certain schools (i.e., the schools at which they recruit). High finance jobs like investment banking, private equity, venture capital, LBO firms, hedge funds, and the like are notorious for this. So is management consulting. It's practically impossible to get into McKinsey or Goldman Sachs if you don't go to one of the schools that they recruit at, which invariably are only the very top schools, simply because you can't even get the interview. </p>

<p>Furthermore, these firms recruit from a wide range of disciplines, which further calls into question the utility of program ranking vs. school ranking. A guy who majored in Art History at Harvard is more likely to get an offer from Goldman Sachs than a guy who majored in finance at a no-name school, simply because the Harvard guy is far more likely to get the initial interview in the first place. Fair or not fair, that's the way it works. If you want to get these kinds of jobs, you basically have to go to one of the top schools. Whether that's the way it should be or not is irrelevant. What matters is that that is how it actually works, whether we like it or not. </p>

<p>I also agree that once you are on the job, the only thing that matters is your performance and your college background is irrelevant. But again, the key issue is, you have to get that job in the first place. </p>

<p>Look, I agree with the general sentiment that nobody should feel 'inferior' to others just because they go to a lesser-ranked school. On the other hand, we should recognize that there are important advantages in going to a top school.</p>