State schools, private schools, and you.

College Search & Selection
21

<p>
[quote]
Well most of them don't, and people are better off going to a public school and getting better grades.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, the truth is, of those people who don't get aid from private schools, many (probably most) of them are so rich that they don't care about the money anyway.</p>

<p>I would also disagree with the assertion that you will get higher grades at public schools. This should be taken on a case-by-case basis. Public school students often times end up with * lower * grades than their private school peers. This is because private schools tend to be highly grade inflated. </p>

<p>For example, the evidence shows that private school GPA's are about 0.3 higher than public school GPA's.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.gradeinflation.com/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gradeinflation.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Now, obviously part of the reason for that is that the private school students tend to be better students, on average. But even accounting for that, it's still unclear to me that you can reliably get higher grades at a public school vs. a private school. By going to a public school, you may actually end up with * lower * grades.</p>

22

<p>JCampbell, interesting that you mention Millersville. My math teacher from last year went there. It's supposed to be excellent for education. Never heard it mentioned for anything else. I'm surprised you didnt mention Temple along the same lines as the other schools. Good post though.</p>

23

<p>
[QUOTE]

I would also disagree with the assertion that you will get higher grades at public schools. This should be taken on a case-by-case basis. Public school students often times end up with lower grades than their private school peers. This is because private schools tend to be highly grade inflated.</p>

<p>For example, the evidence shows that private school GPA's are about 0.3 higher than public school GPA's.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.gradeinflation.com/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gradeinflation.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Now, obviously part of the reason for that is that the private school students tend to be better students, on average. But even accounting for that, it's still unclear to me that you can reliably get higher grades at a public school vs. a private school. By going to a public school, you may actually end up with lower grades.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Sakky,</p>

<p>When you look at the bottom of the graph, you see that its not a very fair comparison. The schools included in the study are:</p>

<p>"*Average undergraduate GPA for Alabama, California-Irvine, Carleton, Duke, Florida, Georgia Tech, Hampden-Sydney, Harvard, Harvey Mudd, Nebraska-Kearney, North Carolina-Chapel Hill, North Carolina-Greensboro, Northern Michigan, Pomona, Princeton, Purdue, Texas, University of Washington, Utah, Wheaton (Illinois), Winthrop, and Wisconsin-La Crosse. "</p>

<p>The private schools are: Carleton, Duke, Harvard, Mudd, Pomona, Princeton to name the most pristigious ones. The public schools are in comparison non-selective, and, no disrespect to those who go to these schools, but not ones you associate with prestige (with the exception of GaTech, UNC-CH, Texas, and UW). Thus wouldn't the statistics be skewed right away because the other publics on the list have much lower stats for the bottom-feeders than the likes of Pomona, Princeton, and Duke?</p>

<p>In addition, schools like North Carolina are forced by law to admit 82% of instaters to fill their seats. Thus, unlike schools like Princeton, they sometimes don't have a choice but to accept a 1800 SAT, 3.5 kid over a 2250, Validictorian just because of state laws. This means that in the end UNC-CH will have a less qualified SB than Princeton which may lead to the GPA difference. </p>

<p>Correct me if I'm wrong on any of that</p>

24

<p>
[quote]
Thus wouldn't the statistics be skewed right away because the other publics on the list have much lower stats for the bottom-feeders than the likes of Pomona, Princeton, and Duke?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No doubt, and in fact I had already pointed out that the stats were not perfectly comparable for just that reason.</p>

<p>But let's make it more comparable. For example, I would say that Berkeley is of comparable selectivity to schools like Northwestern or Wesleyan. Maybe a little bit less selective, but not by much. Yet Berkeley grades are substantially lower than the grades of those private schools.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.gradeinflation.com/northwestern.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gradeinflation.com/northwestern.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.gradeinflation.com/berkeley.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gradeinflation.com/berkeley.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.gradeinflation.com/wesleyan.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gradeinflation.com/wesleyan.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The point is, I see no reason to assert that you will get higher grades at a public school vs. a private school. The reverse might actually be true.</p>

25

<p>
[quote]
While I sympathisize with this notion, the major issue with it is that you can't even get an interview with many of the top employers if you didn't go to certain schools (i.e., the schools at which they recruit). High finance jobs like investment banking, private equity, venture capital, LBO firms, hedge funds, and the like are notorious for this. So is management consulting. It's practically impossible to get into McKinsey or Goldman Sachs if you don't go to one of the schools that they recruit at, which invariably are only the very top schools, simply because you can't even get the interview.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You name a specific set of career paths and firms here, out of thousands. </p>

<p>I singled this part out, because of one thing you said: "high profile jobs"</p>

<p>Again, the point of my post is do what you want to do, not what gets you the most money.</p>

26

<p>I disagree. I believe the place you went to for college or graduate school matters a lot in the job market, even in the IT field. Just as an example, someone posted a Fortune article on CC a while ago mentioning how Google for instance hired only MIT, CMU, Cal Berkeley, or Ivy graduates for the top jobs while the rest of the "common folk" were hired only as contractors with no benefits, stock options or access to the company's major social events.</p>

27

<p>does anyone have any experience with rutgers honors college and how that would play into this discussion?
i have been admitted and am seriously considering going there because they have a five year masters program in Public policy ( the bloustein school of public policy is ranked 8th in nation) abd I would graduate with no doubt.<br>
however, my main interest is poli sci, hardly a career preparatory major. i thought with the master in Public Policy I would have more options?
can anyone please help me?</p>

28

<p>california:<br>
Just a little comment here on your statement that " . . . schools like North Carolina are forced by law to admit 82% of instaters to fill their seats . . . and sometimes don't have a choice but to accept a 1800 SAT, 3.5 kid over a 2250, Validictorian just because of state laws."</p>

<p>Yes, the UNC system takes 82% in-state students. As taxpayers, of course, we view this from the other perspective (i.e., we're "forced by law" to take 18+% from out of state) ;) Actually, the mission statement reads, in part, "The University of North Carolina is a public, multi-campus university dedicated to the service of North Carolina and its people." </p>

<p>However, you should also know that UNC-CH, the flagship university of the UNC system, is never "forced" to take a lesser academic student over a valedictorian. I am assuming you believe the valedictorian who gets locked out of UNC-CH is the out-of-state student? If so, you should understand that the top high school students in NC apply to UNC-CH, and those top students are academically comparable to the out-of-state students who apply and who are accepted. UNC-CH gets to choose among the cream of the crop within NC. Those top students apply; they are accepted; and they often make UNC-CH their top choice and attend.</p>

<p>That said, the range of student type will certainly be more varied than that of the much smaller percentage of out-of-state students accepted. This is true. However, 16 campuses exist within the UNC system. As with most other public university systems, each of those other campuses is an easier admit than is the flagship university (in this case, UNC-CH). Hope that clarifies things a bit.</p>

<p>Also, concerning grade inflation . . . Someone posted recently a graph that charted grade inflation at major universities over the last 30+ years. I'll see if I can find the link, but I do remember noting that the private universities had suffered much more grade inflation over the years than did the top publics that were included in this list. Some were very surprising.</p>

29

<p>
[quote]
You name a specific set of career paths and firms here, out of thousands. </p>

<p>I singled this part out, because of one thing you said: "high profile jobs"</p>

<p>Again, the point of my post is do what you want to do, not what gets you the most money.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I understood the point of your post. </p>

<p>However, my point is that there are jobs that are generally only open to students from certain schools. Fair or not fair, that's how it is. True, there are not that many of these jobs around, but these jobs tend to be the most desirable. I remember back at my school, during a career fair, lots of 'regular' companies came to recruit and their booths attracted only a few interested students. But the booths for companies like McKinsey and Goldman Sachs were completely oversubscribed, to the point that the line of students wanting to talk to them actually ended up stretching outside of the room and into the outside hallway. You also see evidence of this desirability in terms of who ends up taking what job. I know a LOT of people who are in regular jobs who have said, frankly, that they'd rather be working as consultants or bankers, but didn't get an offer, and so their current job is basically their "backup job" as it was the best job they could get. However, I know very few consultants or bankers who said that they'd rather be working at some regular job, but didn't get an offer. The point is, while obviously there are few consulting and banking jobs out there (and other similar high profile jobs), these select jobs command an outsize influence on the job market that is widely disproportionate relative to the number of available openings because of their desirability. </p>

<p>So, yes, I agree with you that what you want to do is obviously very important. But I think that just reinforces my point. A lot of people evidently want to do consulting or banking. If that's what you want, then you basically have to go to a top-tier school because that is where those firms recruit.</p>

30

<p>
[quote]
Also, concerning grade inflation . . . Someone posted recently a graph that charted grade inflation at major universities over the last 30+ years. I'll see if I can find the link, but I do remember noting that the private universities had suffered much more grade inflation over the years than did the top publics that were included in this list. Some were very surprising.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Are you talking about this?</p>

<p><a href="http://www.gradeinflation.com/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gradeinflation.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

31

<p>sakky: Yes, I believe that's the link I remember seeing; thanks.</p>

32

<p>@ sakky: So, let's say you graduate from a RANDOM state school with a degree in CS or Finance and go to work with a rarely heard of local company that's easy to get hired at. You work there for 1-5 years, do an OUTSTANDING job, create a portfolio of your work and accomplishments, and then apply to Google, or one of the firms on your list. (you are approximately 24-27 years old now) </p>

<p>a. Are you still going to get turned down in favor of a 22 year old ivey league grad?</p>

<p>b. What if you worked several different jobs, each in a higher position, and now have 5-7 years experience?</p>

<p>c. What if you go back to school for an MBA after a few years work exp? Are you still going to get turned down?</p>

<p>I just want to make sure this is what you are saying, because i'm having a hard time justifying spending 50k on my next two years OOS or Private just for a name brand school to go with my CS degree.</p>

<p>Now, if i were to get accepted to Ga Tech, MIT, Berkely or the like for CS, then i wouldn't have a problem with the $$$. Same goes for NYU, UCLA, USC, FSU for Film. I don't mind paying for the best of the best, but below that level it seems like the brand won't matter as much as my achievements / quality of work.</p>

33

<p>
[QUOTE]

However, you should also know that UNC-CH, the flagship university of the UNC system, is never "forced" to take a lesser academic student over a valedictorian. I am assuming you believe the valedictorian who gets locked out of UNC-CH is the out-of-state student? If so, you should understand that the top high school students in NC apply to UNC-CH, and those top students are academically comparable to the out-of-state students who apply and who are accepted. UNC-CH gets to choose among the cream of the crop within NC. Those top students apply; they are accepted; and they often make UNC-CH their top choice and attend.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>First of all, this is not necessarily true. Yes, the very very top instaters are of course on par with the OOS people, that goes without saying. Afterall, even in a no name state school such as Oregon State (since I'm from OR) has SOME extremely bright kids who don't want to waste money on undergrad, can skip a year because of IB, etc; that goes without saying. But if you compare North Carolina's average ACT with say Notre Dame, which is fairly comprable, there is a huge discrepancy. UND 25-75 is 30-33, while UNC-CH is a much lower 25-31, Why? Its because UNC-CH also has a lot of average people who just want to drink beer at basketball games all day as well. As Sakky said on another post once, even at Berkeley, there are a bunch of partiers that are not good students, who will bring down the statistics of any school. In addition, a large percentage of your top people from NC will get dragged off to some other elite schools, so don't just assume that because the best apply there that all of the best go there. I agree that some schools have some form of grade inflation, but the point I'm trying to make is that the site doesn't seem to have very good statistics given the descrepancy of the quality of schools it is comparing</p>

<p>That said, the range of student type will certainly be more varied than that of the much smaller percentage of out-of-state students accepted. This is true. However, 16 campuses exist within the UNC system. As with most other public university systems, each of those other campuses is an easier admit than is the flagship university (in this case, UNC-CH). Hope that clarifies things a bit.</p>

34

<p>
[quote]
@ sakky: So, let's say you graduate from a RANDOM state school with a degree in CS or Finance and go to work with a rarely heard of local company that's easy to get hired at. You work there for 1-5 years, do an OUTSTANDING job, create a portfolio of your work and accomplishments, and then apply to Google, or one of the firms on your list. (you are approximately 24-27 years old now) </p>

<p>a. Are you still going to get turned down in favor of a 22 year old ivey league grad?</p>

<p>b. What if you worked several different jobs, each in a higher position, and now have 5-7 years experience?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Consider this quote from Fortune Magazine, 12/8/03 edition.</p>

<p>"For the most part, it takes a degree from an Ivy League school, or MIT, Stanford, CalTech, or Carnegie Mellon--America's top engineering schools--even to get invited to interview. Brin and Page still keep a hand in all the hiring, from executives to administrative assistants. And to them, work experience counts far less than where you went to school, how you did on your SATs, and your grade-point average. "If you've been at Cisco for 20 years, they don't want you," says an employee. "</p>

<p><a href="http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2003/12/08/355116/index.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2003/12/08/355116/index.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Now granted, that was 3 years ago. Google is a different company now and they have lightened up on their hiring practices. So Google may not be the best example now. </p>

<p>But the point is, there are extremely highly desirable employers out there who only recruit at certain schools. The best examples now probably are the top private equity firms and hedge funds.</p>

<p>For example, consider Blackstone, which, as a leading private equity firm, is one of the most desirable employers in the world. </p>

<p>" Blackstone Capital Partners, the US fund with $14 billion under management, presents to students at just three schools: Harvard, Wharton and Columbia"</p>

<p><a href="http://news.efinancialcareers.com/NEWS_ITEM/newsItemId-3736%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://news.efinancialcareers.com/NEWS_ITEM/newsItemId-3736&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
c. What if you go back to school for an MBA after a few years work exp? Are you still going to get turned down?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That depends on the brand-name of that MBA. I would argue that if there is one degree to be brand-conscious about, it is the MBA. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Now, if i were to get accepted to Ga Tech, MIT, Berkely or the like for CS, then i wouldn't have a problem with the $$$. Same goes for NYU, UCLA, USC, FSU for Film. I don't mind paying for the best of the best, but below that level it seems like the brand won't matter as much as my achievements / quality of work.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Now this I agree with. There are only a small percentage of schools out there that are highly branded enough to make them distinctive. Below that point, I agree that you might as well just save money. </p>

<p>School branding and ranking is not quite a 'winner-takes-all' market, but it is a 'winner-takes-a-lot' market. There is virtually no difference between the #200 and #250 ranked school. But there is a big difference beween the #1 and the #51 ranked school.</p>

35

<p>california: I'm not even sure why I persist in posting on these threads; nevertheless, your comment, "In addition, a large percentage of your top people from NC will get dragged off to some other elite schools, so don't just assume that because the best apply there that all of the best go there," has compelled me to reply.</p>

<p>If you read what I wrote initially, you will see what I actually said: "Those top students apply; they are accepted; and they often make UNC-CH their top choice and attend." The key word here is "often." I'm not "assuming" anything. This is just a guess, but I'm guessing that I probably know a lot more about this school than you do--seeing as you're out in Oregon. Have you ever even been to the state of NC or visited this particular campus? </p>

<p>Also, as far as those ACT scores, high schoolers in the Southeast rarely take the ACT, which is much more prevalent in the Midwest. I'm not sure why that was mentioned anyway. I can show you some stats, however, of the average SAT for the OOS at Chapel Hill and the average SAT for the in-staters--if you're interested.</p>

36

<p>So I haven't had the time as of yet to read this entire thread, but I did read the first page and a half and would like to put in my two cents.
I've applied to only two schools; I think it's pointless to apply to 10 schools that you just feel lukewarm about, so I applied to two schools that I really want to go to. One is more of a match (Boston University), and the other is more of a safety (University of Minnesota Twin Cities, but I applied honors). One's a state school, and one's a private, obviously. The schools are both very good, have my prospective majors (which are fairly uncommon), they're both in cities. Everything I've been looking for. BU is only slightly better than UMN, and I'm not sure if the extra ~$30,000 is worth going to a slightly better school.
Just for the record, to throw in some rankings, according to USNews, BU is #57 and UMN is #67.
I'd like to consider myself an intelligent girl, and my friends are generally the same. Everyone I surround myself with is applying to small, expensive private schools. Because of this, I've been getting a lot of nagging about my applying to UMN. They've been going on and on about how BU is such a better school and they're generally condescending towards me about it.
It's terribly upsetting, because friends are supposed to support other friends' decisions, and it's not as if I'm not going to college at all.</p>

<p>Basically, I just wanted to say that JCampbell makes incredible points. There is no reason whatsoever that a person should go to a private school just because it's a private school. And really, don't be like the friends I have and look down upon the people who want to go to a public school. It's, like most people said, all about the match.</p>

37

<p>So the other night I go see "The Messiah" which had 4 wonderful, accomplished opera singers. Reading the playbill I was pleased to read of one of the main singers who...............graduated from Penn State........and was now teaching at.......... UPENN. Darn good thing the state kids are willing to teach at your fancy, prestigious schools.</p>

38

<p>I've only skimmed this thread, so pardon me if I missed it, but I want to respond to two comments.</p>

<p>First,

[quote]
College sets you into a field doing what you want to do, who you want to be for the rest of your life.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>While all experiences make you "who you want to be" for the rest of your life, I disagree that it sets you in your career for the rest of your life. Careers change, and nowadays change fairly quickly. I graduated from college in the dark ages (not an Ivy, but damned close), got a masters in public health, went to law school, practiced for a whole lot of years and am now in - IT as a business analyst. I know people who have gone from truck driver to lawyer; from programmer to teacher; from engineer to doctor; and the converse of these as well.</p>

<p>The vast majority of college students also change majors several times during their college careers, as they find out more and more about what's out there. How much does a 17 year old really know about "investment banking" and what working in it entails? Or even about the things like anthropology, astronomy, archaeology, to which they have only been marginally exposed as high schoolers? When I read all these posts about kids wanting to go into "business", I have to laugh. What business? What do you want to do in business? What does "going into business" mean? Most of these kids have no clue.</p>

<p>Therefore, rather than focusing on the status of a particular department, I suggest focusing on schools that are strong in multiple areas, and that have significant flexibility, so that if you decide in your second semester that rocket science is not for you, you don't necessarily have to transfer.</p>

<p>The second issue I wanted to mention is that it is true that "not all state schools are crap." It is also true, however, that "not all state schools are good." Those of you who live in states with well-supported, well-staffed and well-respected state schools should be grateful; there are those of us who do not.</p>

39

<p>Tomorrow in the New York Times will be an article addressing whether a private education is worth it at the college level.</p>

40

<p>All good replies! More questions though:</p>

<p>So how significant is the difference between 2nd tier school and a 3rd or fourth tier? Eg. A school ranked in the 25's-50's vs a school ranked in the 50's to 100's or even as far as the 150's.</p>

<p>I'm asking because I'm a junior transfer student. Basically, based on my rough college career that i'm trying to salvage, there's no way i'm getting into the top 25%. The next 25% may be a reach. Anything below that would be very possible.</p>

<p>If i don't get accepted to any of my top choices for film or computer science is it really going to be worth it for me to spend the 40k to go to a random flagship or private school ranked in the 40-60's? (i'm in tennessee so pretty much anything is OOS and expensive.)</p>