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First off, I never said anything about necessarily going to a 'private' school. I was talking about going to a GOOD school, whether public or private. There are plenty of mediocre private schools out there. Nobody is advocating going to one of them.</p>
<p>Secondly, in the context of this thread, getting into a good school WILL give you a better shot, as compared to going to a mediocre school. That's the point. Obviously we can always bring in other things that come into play. Sure. But so what? Given the choice between going to a good school or a mediocre school, a good school gives you a better chance.</p>
<p>It's like saying that smoking hurts your health. Granted, lots of other things hurt your health too. Getting hit by a bus will hurt your health. But that's irrelevant. Given the choice between smoking and not smoking, the choice to not smoke is the healthier choice. Obviously you can choose not to smoke and still die by getting hit by a bus. But that's not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is, should you smoke or not?
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<p>sorry, again I used the word "private" where I sould have used "top rated."</p>
<p>i'll give you an example of my major, meteorology.</p>
<p>PSU is much higher ranked than OU. Both are large, D1 schools. PSU has a much tougher admissions policy as well. Both have a met. program.</p>
<p>However, in this case a met graduate from OU would have a much better shot at getting a "better" job in the field. PSU.. you'd have a good shot as well, but not the best.</p>
<p>That's the reverse of what you continue to say, because you are still treating everything under a blanket statement. I've been falling into your trap because job-wise I let us talk about specific programs that top rated schools tend to pump out for. The only anomoly that we discussed is Cisco.</p>
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How so? It is COMPLETELY appropriate. Again, that's why aspiring NFL players are better off going to one of those college football factory schools, even though the majority of players at even those schools will not make it to the NFL. If you goal is a difficult one, then it behooves you to muster all the help you can get. </p>
<p>Just think about the situation from a psychological standpoint. Yeah, statistically, you'll probably still fail anyway. But at least you gave it your best shot. Then you can at least tell yourself that you gave it your all, and so you can walk away with no regrets. That's better than spending the rest of your life wondering if you might have succeeded if you had played your hand differently.
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<p>Wrong, it's not even related. You're comparing the number of successful business ventures to...what again?</p>
<p>we were discussing companies like Google hiring straight from those top rated schools (even though they don't anymore) and how successful they were. I pointed out that many of those same models failed. That has nothing to do with this argument nor with what you've compared it to just now.. again, it went off topic.</p>
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Of course I am still using chances. Life is all about chances. Sure, "many" come from D2 or D1AA schools. But so what? My grandfather smoked 3 packs a day and still lived to be 90. So does that mean that I should also smoke 3 packs a day if I want to live to be 90? Heck, even he recommended to us not to take up smoking.
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<p>going on that analogy, there are many non-smokers that develop lung cancer. Should they smoke because of that chance?</p>
<p>If a football player is good, they will be drafted.. scouts go to every game all over the U.S. it's the same principle. Now those programs are much more elaborate, and the stadiums and training centers rival those of the NFL.. because they build on one another.</p>
<p>However, let's look at some other schools.. Texas Tech, or UAB..how about those schools? Do you feel they have more or less of a chance of exposing one to the NFL?</p>
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And that's precisely what does happen! You know and I know that plenty of D-1 football players are not in school to learn anything, they are there just to play ball and make it to the NFL. Heck, if I was sure I'd make it to the NFL, I'd probably not care about what I majored in either.</p>
<p>But anyway, you are basically just reinforcing my point which is that it isn't all that important what you major in, because frankly, most people end up in careers that are not tightly related to their undergrad major anyway.
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<p>see above.</p>
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It may be the 'wrong reasons' to you, but it is what it is. Come on, you and I have both seen how companies will demand bachelor's degrees for interviews for jobs even though, frankly, the job has nothing that actually requires a bachelor's degree. Like it or not, lots of employers use the bachelor's degree simply as a hiring screen. I've known companies where every employee, including the secretaries, had at least master's degrees, despite the fact that few of the jobs in that company actually required the knowledge of a master's degree. </p>
<p>Like it or not, this is a matter of signalling and screening. To use econ-speak, labor markets are riven with information asymmetries, because employers just don't know who is going to be a good employee and who isn't. Bad employees are going to try to present themselves as good ones. Hence, under normal conditions, labor markets will be greatly distorted and thus behave highly imperfectly by that lack of proper information. The way to restore a competitive, functioning market is therefore to introduce information signals, and like it or not, college degrees are one form of information signal. </p>
<p>I'll put it to you this way. Let's say that college degrees did not boost anybody's salary, did not provide an advantage in the job market. I think we would have to agree that in such a world, very few people would go to college. Like it or not, that's the truth. Most people who go to college are doing so because they want to improve their career prospects. Nothing more, nothing less. To them, school is just a credentialing process. Maybe that's not the way it should be, but that's the way it is, like it or not.
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<p>Exactly. in many aspects, especially management, the degree just shows a step. I've been involved in hiring many mid-level employees, and have done countless interviews as such. In not one case has what school they earned the degree from ever come up. Not once. It's listed, sure.. but what matters most on the resume is what the employee shows that he/she can do.</p>
<p>Saying, "I went to HARVARD!!" usually doesn't mean a damn thing in the IT world. I don't care what numbers you bring up, or what specific few cases you can point out... this is my expierence in the corporate world for 10 years now. I've met plenty of MIT graduates. They are the few that are looked at closely. But Harvard, Yale, Stanford... not really. And these MIT graduates have also been passed up by those from non top-rated schools. Why? Because there is more to a resume than just the school.</p>
<p>In NO WAY have I ever suggested turning down a top rated school. I have suggested not working so hard to shoot for a school that might not have anything to do with a major if you have chosen one. That's a key factor here. If you haven't, then the school's list of majors might not be an important factor. However, if you do know what you want to study, do not choose a school just by its overall rank.</p>
<p>If I were to be accepted to Yale, I would turn it down. I'm sure I'd get a large amount of aid, maybe even a free ride. But the program there isn't the best out there. And by what I've learned in the world is that the program quality is what matters, not the overall school.</p>
<p>Again, if you're undecided.. even if you have decided.. I have not said it was best to not go to a top rated school. If you're accepted into NYU or Chicago and it's a fit, by all means go there. It definately won't hurt.</p>
<p>However, don't spend your entire highschool life pushing yourself to get into a school if you don't have the capacity to. Work for it, but don't waste your youth for smething that can let you down. If you do happen to get A's and have a ton of ECs that you took BECAUSE YOU LIKED THEM, and end up having to go to a safety school, don't be dismayed because you can be just as successful and nobody should ever tell you otherwise. If you end up at a top school, congrats..there is nothing wrong with it.</p>
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You're making a reference to Veblenian conspicuous consumption. But allow me to point out that such behavior is far from specific to just kids. Plenty of older men buy BMW's just to be able to show off that they're rich enough to afford a Beamer. Plenty of grown women buy Manolos just to be able to show off that they can afford Manolos (ever seen Sex and the City?). </p>
<p>Look, the psychology of mankind is such that people like to look good to others. That's why the cosmetics, fashion, and jewelry industries are billion dollar industries. That's why the luxury car sector is the most profitable sector of the entire auto industry. The vast majority of these goods are bought not by "kids", but by grown adults. </p>
<p>So even if you are correct that people are going to Harvard just to be able to say that they are going to Harvard, what's so unusual about that? That's no worse than a grown man buying a luxury car just so that he can show off that he can afford a luxury car. When we're talking about the ultra-luxury car market like the Lamborghini, Ferrari, Bugatti, Bentley, Maybach, let's be honest, why else does anybody buy these cars except to show off? </p>
<p>But I would argue that the value of Harvard is far more than just simply the value of showing off (yet, as established above, even that, by itself, is valuable). See below.
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<p>Look, I'm a simple man. I have no idea what a "Veblenian conspicuous consumption" is and really I see no reason fo you to bring in something like that unless it warrants an explination after my replies.</p>
<p>However the rest of what you state is that society looks upon such things and it should be accepted. Perhaps. But showing how it's a flaw in humanity as such should bring you to not support it, right? So why continue to imply that one should just go along with that? If it's something that is... what's the word I'm looking for...wrong, in a sense, it doesn't mean it's the right choice. Nor is it the wrong choice.</p>
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Have I been creating an illusion? How many times have I said taht your chances are low no matter what? </p>
<p>The REAL issue to me is psychological solace. If you did everything you could to succeed and you still don't, then you can at least tell yourself that you gave it your best shot. That's a lot better than going through life with the nagging doubt that maybe you could have succeeded if you had made a different decision. You don't want to spend the rest of your life wondering 'What if?'. If you get into Harvard or some other top-ranked program, and you turn it down for some no-name program, and you don't achieve the success you want, you will always be nettled by the possibility that you might have made it had you accepted that Harvard admission.
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<p>Again, I never told someone to turn down a top rated school. This thread is not in the admissions forum, it is in the search & selection forum.</p>
<p>I made this post because I noticed people who stated they didn't want to post thier stats in chances threads because people would constantly call thier school choices "crap" and go on and on about H/Y/C/S/etc. </p>
<p>I feel that CC has been continually restricting itself, and preventing opening itself up to a larger group because of this habit of focusing on Ivy. i'm well aware it's been like this from its inception. My thread was to hopefully get people to understand that they're school might be just as good as those top rated ones. That they might have a stronger program than those in top schools.</p>
<p>I am not trying to equate a top school with a lower ranked university.
I am not trying to say it's bad to shoot for a top school.
I am not going to say to turn one down, every situation is different.</p>
<p>-BUT-</p>
<p>I am suggesting someone to look at all programs and find the fit for them. a FIT. that is what the right school is about. not the ranking. not the name. </p>
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In ANY position? Of course not. That's not the point. The point is - it is the SAFE choice, because it maximizes your chances in the aggregate. Just like putting on your seat belt doesn't guarantee that you won't get hurt in an accident. There are no guarantees in life. But putting on your seat belt is the safer choice.
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<p>Again, chances of being successful in YOUR view. I.E. selective jobs and money.</p>
<p>There's more to life than money, there's more to a job than pay and benefits. You might disagree, but my priorities are apparently much different.</p>
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You constantly bring up this issue of 'struggling', or 'happiness' or 'enjoyment' or whatnot. Yet you are presuming that people who go to the top programs somehow struggle or are unhappy. I have no reason to believe that these people are less happy or struggle more than people who go to no-name schools. Heck, if anything, I would argue that they are MORE happy. After all, compare the graduation rate of the top programs to the no-name programs. Ivy League schools graduate over 90% of their students. Plenty of no-name schools graduate less than 50%. If Ivy students are so unhappy, and students at no-name schools are happy, then why don't more of those Ivy students drop out, and why don't more of those students at no-name schools stick around and graduate? After all, nobody goes to college with the intention of dropping out. Presumably, you go to college with the intention of graduating. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, I agree with one part of what you said. I never said anything about giving up happiness. If the top programs don't make you happy, then don't go to one. On the other hand, I see no inverse relationship between top programs and happiness.
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<p>What's happy? Is staying home from weekly football games to study happy? Is not hanging out with friends happy? Is taking a ton of ECs just to pad a transcript happy?</p>
<p>I'm not saying that NOT doing those will make you happy, but if you are forcing yourself to do things you don't want to do then don't do it.</p>
<p>I hate Hollywood, and I hate pop culture movies. I hate bringing them up in what I would consider a debate... however there is a message in "Orange County" that some people might want to think about. </p>
<p>I think I could go to PSU, or at least work on going there. I can definately go to OU (Oklahoma). But I'm going to another school that's second to both of those because of other priorities that mean more to me.</p>
<p>Again, fit.</p>
<p>I think graduation rates are attributed more to the type of student.. a lower ranked school has a much larger student body, and much lower standards. I feel many take these lower standards to go into programs that are too difficult for them and they drop out. Or perhaps they get a job offer while in school. Maybe money is an issue, we'll never know.</p>
<p>it's no surprise an Ivy's rate is very high.. once you're in you probably have no reason to leave, even if you hate it there.</p>
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1) It gives you a very useful marketing weapon to use when you go job-hunting. It is entirely appropriate to give yourself all of the marketing help you can when you're looking for a job when you consider just how much money companies spend trying to market their products to you.
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<p>It gives you the illusion of having a weapon. it's like bringing a beautifully crafted sword to a battle where you have no idea what the other side has.</p>
<p>It's hit or miss having that weapon. You might apply to someone who DOES hire you based on the school. You might not. In fact, chances are you won't. </p>
<p>Again, we cannot apply blanket statements to the specific nature of the subject.</p>
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2) You get access to a better alumni network. Like I said, often times, it's not what you know, but WHO you know that determines your success.
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<p>I agree with the alumni statement, but that what you know/who you know statement...</p>
<p>You might get a job because of who you know. But you'll only keep it because of what you know.</p>
<p>I have known complete morons who have graduated from Princeton, Harvard, and I think Yale (I'm not 100% sure on that last one). Then again, I have known people from those schools who don't fail to impress me also. it's hit or miss, just like anywhere else.</p>
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3) You put yourself in a more positive sociological environment. When people around you are brilliant and are accomplishing amazing things, that will tend to inspire you to accomplish amazing things. On the other hand, when the people around you are not so amazing, then you will tend to not be motivated to be amazing. Throughout history, it has been shown that innovation tends to come in spurts that are centered both chronologically and regionally. For example, much of the best artwork in world history was produced in Italy during the few decades that represented Renaissance. And not in all of Italy, but only certain areas in Italy - Florence, Venice, to some extent Rome, etc. There wasn't much art being produced in, say, Sicily. Similarly, the most prolific time of philosophy in Western civilization was a certain roughly 200-year period of ancient Greece - when most of those Greek philosophers knew of each other and were inspired by each other, and some were actually direct students of each other (i.e. Socrates -> Plato -> Aristotle). The presence of profound thinkers tends to inspire other profound thinkers, and that is why innovation throughout history has tended to proceed in spurts.
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<p>I'm not sure I follow.. I don't see how this is relevant. Again, this is in regards to college search, not admissions.</p>
<p>If you are smart enough to go into those schools, and if you have the mental capacity to actually learn and know the stuff, then by all means go- just as long as you're not selling yourself short.</p>
<p>Honestly, I'm 27 and gradated highschool with no ECs and a 1.8 GPA. Looking at my trasncript one would think I was, well, an idiot. However I know personally I'm not. Sure, I don't know everything... hell, there's a lot I don't know, such as your phrase listed above. However I know I have the ability to learn more than people assume, and I know I'm smarter than what my grades in highschool report. I currenty take courses that push me to my limits. </p>
<p>However I do it to enhance myself, not to my resume. The only person I have to prove anything to is myself.</p>
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But again, I would reiterate, nobody is saying that anybody is a 'failure' if they don't get into a top school. Obviously life goes on. But let's not kid ourselves. Going to a top school is a good thing.
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<p>Not if it isn't who you are.</p>