<p>"This is completely wrong - there are lots of small colleges w/ enrollments similar to Wharton that have 30, 40, 50% or more acceptance rates - it's a function of demand."</p>
<p>Fine, I oversimplified -- shoot me. But the fact is that admissions standards at Wharton are only marginally higher than at the College.</p>
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So Wharton is about 2x as hard to get into as "rest of Penn" combined and about even with HYPSM. I don't know how "rest of Penn" breaks down between CAS, SEAS, Nurs. but it's sort of a dirty little secret that Col. people and the admissions office get all huffy about if you mention it.
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<p>Of course we get huffy as it's a rather shoddy way of showing wharton kids are somehow "better" than "the rest." Wharton has a teeny tiny class size, and more importantly, no real peers (suck it Stern). Penn's liberal arts-focused College of Arts & Sciences has a lot more competition. Looking at relative SAT scores, GPAs, etc would be a better indicator of how hard it is to get in.</p>
<p>Of course, Penn will not release separate statistics a la Columbia as that goes against Penn's "one university" principle as promulgated by former penn prez Meyerson, who sadly just passed away this past week. And that's fine by me.</p>
<p>The best way to see if there if Wharton kids are Harvard-esque and the CAS/SEAS kids are cro-magnons who throw their feces at each other, of course, is simply to go to Penn and realize that both schools have their share of both the brilliant and the bone-headed.</p>
<p>"....former penn prez Meyerson, who sadly just passed away this past week. And that's fine by me." - JohnnyK</p>
<p>I love taking things out of context.</p>
<p>"I love...king" - s snack, Monarchist traitor! ;)</p>
<p>War701 - you're mixing up admits and enrollment. They admit more because not everyone chooses to attend. Although I gather that Wh. has a higher yield than CAS as well as a lower admit rate.</p>
<p>Johnny - at this level the dif. in admit rates doesn't say much about the quality of the students given the deep applicant pools that they can pick and choose from - probably 50% of the applicant pool is qualified to attend (would have gotten in in less populated times), so all it means is that CAS is rejecting 2 out of 3 qualified people and Wh. is rejecting 4 out of 5.</p>
<p>Wharton does have a higher yield (and lower admit rate), but again, this is because it has little if any true competition (undergraduate business schools). Penn CAS is in competition with every Ivy League university and LAC on top of that...</p>
<p>JohnnyK - I agree w/ you - Wh. is clear #1 in undergrad bus., with #2 being way off in the distance (in fact at the Wharton sessions of the Penn Previews, the pitch was not "Pick Wharton over some other undergrad B-school" it was "Why Wharton is better than an Economics major at HYP"). Especially w/ the joint progs (Huntsman esp.) Wh. sees itself as now able to get people (not just rarely which has always happened but a large %) to choose it over HYP.</p>
<p>No one in their right mind would say that CAS is #1 in liberal arts. It will lose most (but not all) two way admits to the "higher" Ivies and even some LACs - the admissions people know this and know they have no chance of stopping it as matters currently stand (again they will get a few but not many). However, CAS is certainly in a select (top 10) group and winds up with plenty of great people - people who in earlier years when there was a smaller pool would have ended up at HYP, etc. </p>
<p>So it's clear that Wharton is the more "desirable" school - #1 in its field vs. #(~10?) for CAS. You can't have it both ways and say on the one hand that Wharton and College students are exactly the same and then say they are different. </p>
<p>It's to be expected that that not all the schools in a large University (not even all the departments w/in a school) will have the same rank , and the difference between CAS and Wharton (and SEAS) is relatively small, small enough that they can exist side by side intellectually and intermix (which is the whole point of the "One University" theme). But that doesn't mean that the gap doesn't exist at all. I think CAS people should just get comfortable w. this fact - making it a sore point and making all the jokes about Wharton as a trade school, etc. just shows an inferiority complex that is unnecessary given that CAS people have every right to be proud of their school.</p>
<p>I don't say that Wh and CAS students are exactly the same--I only say that to insist that the former are somehow superior to the latter (in any way but projected earnings potential ;) ) is absurd.</p>
<p>Being more "desirable" IN ITS FIELD is not the same as being more desirable, period. After all, more people apply to CAS than Wharton. Cornell's aggie, hotel, and other random schools are probably the whartons of their fields and attract the very best and brightest who want...that. Doesn't make them any better than the rest of their peers who chose the university for a reason other than "it's no. 1!"</p>
<p>It's not like Wharton is the #1 school of refrigeration mechanics or something - it's #1 in a highly desirable, top earning field which means it will attract some very bright and able people by any standard, not just in comparison to other B-schools. As I said before, the joint progs are now (at least according to the admissions office) getting people to chose Wh. over HYP on a regular basis.</p>
<p>In general, in terms of sheer brain power, I'd say that Wh. students are somewhere in the middle - you have a (small) group of CAS people who will do something like theoretical physics or advanced math that requires more smarts than most Wh. students ever will have, but then you have the CAS people who are doing angry studies and other BS type majors that require no brains at all, just a facility to spout back the correct PC jargon at the professors. To me the disparity between the different CAS departments is even greater than the overall CAS- Wharton gap.</p>
<p>That I can jive with as I am no fan of postmodern PC nonsense studies.</p>
<p>My only question is where you draw the line between liberal arts and 'angry studies'</p>
<p>For example, aside from math, physics, bio, "hard sciences" i consider history and economics to be legitimate disciplines.</p>
<p>"gender studies" and "asian-american studies" and stuff like that I would throw in the category of "waste of $130,000"</p>
<p>I agree w/ you on the line drawing (though I'm not sure how much $ there is in a history degree). Basically any department that was created after say 1968 you can assume is worthless, anything that was around before then is usually pretty solid intellectually (though again not always the best career option - there is very limited market demand for anthropologists, sociologists, poets, etc). Maybe there are some exceptions (when was CIS dept. created?) but not many.</p>
<p>It's absolutely ridiculous that you think the difficulty and importance of a degree can be measured by its earning potential.</p>
<p>In a market economy, the value of various skills is set by the market - it must be saying something that the market values i-banking skills more highly than the ability to recite French poetry. Some smart people are motivated by things other than $ but generally a certain large % of smart people will be more attracted to high paying fields than low paying ones .</p>
<p>Percy - your points in general and your math in specific don't make alot of sense. In reverse order: you state Wharton got ~7000 apps this past year. Reverse engineering challenges that point - </p>
<p>1) Wharton's frreshman class size is ~425 students
2) Assuming an overall yield of 75% (in line w/ H and Y), Wharton admits ~570
3) Assuming a admit ratio of 9-10% [stated in this thread, but not verified], Wharton must get ~6000 applicants</p>
<p>I dont know how many students are in the joint programs which have proved to be incredibly powerful recruiting tools for Penn vis-a-vis Stanford, H Y and P. Please note that the Wharton name alone is not enough to win that cross-admit battle. M&T and Vagelos have proven to be the most competitive offerings.</p>
<p>Re admit qualifications, I would like to see proof that Wharton students score higher than SEAS students (or CAS students). That fact would make Penn the ONLY elite school where the business program (or similar program) outscores engineering. Generally, engineerings are significantly ahead. The closest analogue I can think of is Columbia College/SEAS. CC is similar to Wharton in selectivity and I suspect applicant pool. CC amits fewer and yields more students; SEAS has much higher scores. It's self selection as well as program selectivity. Please show proof for yourstatement or stop making baseless claims. </p>
<p>And finally, while it's refreshing not to have to endure lib arts majors trashing pre-professional programs [which is rampant on this site], methinks you take your claims on Whartonite superiority too far. </p>
<p>[For the record, it's insane that history and English majors look down their noses at people who work harder and score higher than they do. Not knocking lib arts, but come on......if a kid can't handle differential equations or organic chemistry, he/she should keep their mouth shut and master Plato's Republic. Humanities kids shouldn't throw stones at people who can lob grenades.]</p>
<p>But I digress....Percy, Wharton's a fine school. With - as pointed out earlier - no real rival. A large factor in it's selectivity is that it has no comp in the Ivy league. Ditto for Nursing. You need to adjust your boasts for that fact my friend.</p>
<p>Red&Blue - I admit I have trouble making the numbers jive because they purposely are unclear about them. You can gather bits and pieces of data from various sources. It's not clear how they count the joint prog people.</p>
<p>From the DP 2/12/07</p>
<p>"Wharton applicants rose 13 percent [over 2006 cycle], </p>
<p>From DP 4/2</p>
<p>The number of students admitted decreased modestly from last year for the College of Arts and Sciences, Engineering and Wharton, with the three schools accepting 2,257, 762 and 471 students, respectively. The School of Nursing accepted slightly more applicants this year, totaling 120.</p>
<p>DP 5/11</p>
<p>The Huntsman Program in International Business enrolled 87 percent of accepted students, up from 69 percent last year. The Jerome Fisher Management and Technology program's yield rate rose 15 percentage points to 71 percent, while the Vagelos Program in Molecular Life Sciences remained steady at 65 percent.</p>
<p>Business week profile:</p>
<p>4996 freshmen (admitted and denied) sought full-time admission to the business program for the 2006-2007 academic year.</p>
<p>13% of these applicants were admitted to the program and 77% of admitted students enrolled.</p>
<p>Median SAT: 1430 (on 1600 scale)</p>
<p>DP 1/12 </p>
<p>Those admitted to the Class of 2011 have an average SAT Critical Reasoning score of 697, compared to 686 from the class of 2010. Math scores rose from 715 to 722, and the average writing score was 705, up from 695 last year.</p>
<p>So overall class of 2010 SAT (including Wharton) was 1401, Wharton alone 1430. This puts "rest of Penn" SAT below 1400, maybe 40 pts. lower than Wharton avg. </p>
<p>4996 x 1.13 = 5645 applied 2007, 471 admitted = 8.3% admit rate</p>
<p>However, at Penn Previews, they said 7000 and 9% admit rate. Again I think the difference is joint prog people, as 471 is not enough to fill Wh. fresh class after yield loss.</p>
<p>I wish they would just release the data in a full and clear format but they don't because, as I said before they view it as a sensitive issue that they don't like to emphasize too much.</p>
<p>"sensitive" seems a bit much. It simply goes against their One University principle as well as their own strategic focus.</p>
<p>Johnny - you can calibrate the shade of euphemism to the exact spin level you like - the bottom line is that they purposely make these numbers hard to find in one place even though they release bits and pieces of it and it would be easy for them to make all the data available in a one page table. Any time an institution or government hides or fogs something "for the benefit of all" an alarm should go off in your head that something rotten is going on. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, etc.</p>