<p>My DD is strongly considering Cal and UVA and Vassar- I know, quite an eclectic mix, but high academic standards with good programs in her club sport (which she plays nationally thereby requiring a decent program, though which does not help with admissions!) was the requirement.........any little tidbits of disappointment you can share? I tell my DD to talk to people at the school and find out all the negatives, if you can live with the school's negatives, then the good things are bound to be good....when they have such great schools to choose from.</p>
<p>Any of the Cal negatives you have heard would be great to know.</p>
<p>Alumother--congratulations on your daughter's amazing choices. I say forget the pro and con charts at this point and tell her to follow her heart. If she's on a Stanford high as of April 30, so be it; she really can't go wrong, and we often can't articulate the reasons why a particular choice feels like--and probably is--the "right" one for us. :)</p>
<p>What???? "I think that I agree that for math/science/engineering, I would generally choose Stanford, and for the humanities Princeton." ????</p>
<p>Well granted, history, philosophy and so on may come to mind when thinking of Princeton, but also: Physics, math, molecular bio, economics ... these are among Princeton's strongest programs, and in the country. One of Princeton's greatest strengths is its strength across the board in all areas of undergraduate academics. The mol bio, physics, chem e, and computer sci depts have as their facilities the state-of-the-art Icahn labs. There is also an integrated science series, notable for its close teaching, rigor, and research.</p>
<p>There is a Certificate (like a minor) in Theatre and Dance, with a particular sequence of for-credit courses recommended for dance. Professional-track ballet students can also study with the American Repertory Ballet. </p>
<p>This year the states with the most representation of admitted students were, in order: CAlifornia, NJ, NY, Texas, Maryland. </p>
<p>But these are just bits of info...
I don't know as much about Stanford or Cal and am biased towards Princeton (being a parent of a student who is there) but every student has his/her needs and wants, and sometimes, when all things are considered, it does come down to that "gut" feeling. Alumdaughter will probably get that. It seems to me that she's not being hesitant--she's being prudent, since she hasn't yet been to the Stanford admit days. And, if it's any consolation, there's always the possibility of med/law/graduate school for whatever schools are necessarily and reluctantly left on the table when there are such good choices, and we all know how fortunate one is to have those these days.</p>
<p>Alumother wrote
[quote]
calmom - I mean that she likes the power structure of the institution to be visible. Her true love is management (she doesn't know this yet). So she needs to know the hierarchy and the resources and what she is managing.
[/quote]
I'm still not sure that I exactly get it, but since Cal is a public institution, it's power structure very transparent ... plus the political activism on the Cal campus keeps students involved. Though when it comes down to it, at least in terms of choosing and continuing in a major, what is reallly important is the power structure of individual departments. </p>
<p>I did't mean to suggest in any way that I thought you were over-involved -- I didn't, just maybe a little overstressed personally about the decision. Which is perfectly normal -- it's just that a little bit down the line, with child #2, I have a somewhat more relaxed view of things. </p>
<p>TheDad wrote
[quote]
of all D's friends who went to Cal...and 45 from her graduating class did...as a <em>group</em>, they seem to be the most disappointed with their college experience so far.
[/quote]
That was my son's observation in talking to kids who had graduated from high school in the years ahead of him, and was a big factor in why he chose his east coast LAC over Cal. Although the LAC is highly regarded, his friends and teachers thought he was nuts, because Cal had more relative prestige and name-recognition. And I personally am still not sure what would have been the best for him -- one problem with college choices is that kids do grow and change over the 4 years they are in school, so the choice that is the best fit for an 18 year old is not always the best fit for a 20 year old, especially when comparing relative merits of a large university to a small private college. (My son's situation, not Alumother's). </p>
<p>But in terms of disappointment or satisfaction, I think it still comes down to the individual kid. Berkeley's prestige within California means that many students choose it when other campuses would be a better fit for them -- and I think there is also bound to be disappointment when a kid chooses a college because of the perceived strength of academics and finds the reality to be huge lecture halls and discussion sections or labs run by TA's. So, especially with Cal, it's important that the student enters with a realistic set of expectations.</p>
<p>Go with the school offer best fin aid, with the remaining money et her choose a summer activity which she can indulge in and have a better future. If not buy her a car or or offer her a vacation or travel abroad.</p>
<p>SomeMom, some of the negatives about Cal CalMom has already alluded to: the large classes and lots of TA's. As the students compare notes, they also have the most "eh!" living experience...so-so dorms with housing guaranteed only for the first year. Some students are mis-matched with their strengths and proposed majors and nobody is really there to counsel them. (At a party recently, we met a former mathematics prof from Cal who said that D was very fortunate to be doing Math at Smith...a strong enough program where they want you to succeed, as opposed to Cal, a very strong program where "weeder" courses are the norm.) And CalMom is right, too many kids take Cal for the prestige...certainly is the case for D's would-be b/f...I looked at his college choices and, knowing him, winced. The LAC students, as a group, are also more engaged with their professors. I suspect that the surviving Cal students will hit their stride once they're into upper division. But.</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong, I think Cal is a great school but I find myself wondering if it's not a better choice for grad than undergrad for many students. </p>
<p>It's funny, I have a better feel for UCLA, and UCLA is not a school that I would recommend for everyone...and it has nothing to do with intellectual ability, more to do with what experiences a student is seeking and what their temperament is.</p>
<p>Chinaman, not everything can be accurately measured with a price tag.</p>
<p>fwiw, a large percentage of the science faciulty just transported itself across the country to princeton to work in the new lewis sigler institute (even taking a lot of the equiptment, which still says property of stanford university on it). The reason that they did so was that Botstein wanted a chance to start the new freshman integrated science program, which stanford would not let him do, while princeton would</p>
<p>ec1234 - Wow. That is new information. Some other quotes: SBMom, "No matter where she goes, because she is not you, she will have her own experience". Helicopter Mom, "If she's on a Stanford high April 30 so be it." All the references to the "other coast experience". Understood. </p>
<p>And chinaman - for whatever reasons she would rather throw her heart into a college experience than have cars or vacations. Maybe she's gotten used to our old clunkers. Maybe it's because she wants to travel as part of college. But there you go.</p>
<p>MOT:
[quote]
It is easier to double major at Stanford, as there is no thesis requirement.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, there's no double major at Princeton at all. Which makes my son (P'09) rather sad, because he just started discovering that there are other things except his beloved Pure Math...</p>
<p>On all other accounts - I'm a huge Princeton fan, living myself nearby and sometimes taking classes under the Community Audition option... a feast for my cognitive side.</p>
<p>Well, yes, there's no double major, but the certificate (minor) in most cases amounts to taking the same courses as a major without writing the thesis in that subject, or finding a way to integrate it with the major's thesis. Where I come from that's a double major. Also there is a little-used option, which is the independent major; I believe I heard that only two students on campus are currently doing one, both in bioethics.</p>
<p>We were where you are now last year. My D did a complicated scoring system between Stanford and Yale (having first ruled out Princeton because she felt it was more similar to Stanford in some ways and she didn't want to go that far unless it was something totally different than her options here.) She did her chart and came out with the same number which was a statistical marvel -- so that didn't help. You are wise (and so is Stanford) to understand the Stanford High that will follow the visit -- they do a really great job. I think having friends to go to college with is a good thing -- my D is having a great time now at Yale but the first semester was rough and part of it was she had no one from home who really knew her. It was rough on us after all the agonizing over a decision to think that maybe we made the wrong one. Our story turned out well but we knew that going back east was riskier and that Stanford (or Berkeley) was the safer choice. We had every reason to think our kid was adventurous, etc. but college is a hard adjustment. I'd still recommend weighing all factors and giving each one it's own worth. The thing that finally swayed my daughter was a phone call to a friend of an aquaintance -- someone who wasn't trying to sell the program. Try to find some kids through a network -- kids who aren't official hosts, etc. and see if your child can talk with them. But if there is a gut feeling I think it's good to go with that -- it's not like you can go wrong (although I would also pick S or P over Berkeley.) Good luck.</p>
<p>I didn't mean to imply in any way that science and engineering are weak at Princeton or that humanities are weak at Stanford. Far from it - both are EXCELLENT for all of these fields. I was just trying to think of differences for comparison, and the relative percentages of students studying in these different areas may have some effect on the general feeling or character of the student body.</p>
<p>Alumother, if this thread was like Beraruh's thread, I would say you would like her to go to Princeton. Your daughter likes Stanford a little better. She is more comfortable at Stanford and in the subjects she is interested in today, Stanford has a better reputation. Close?</p>
<p>I would like her to have the other coast experience and go to the best undergraduate institution in the country - if it is the right fit. Although I worry secretly that she might get her feelings hurt at Princeton, either because all the other kids will be even smarter than her or because she will want to spend her days with shiny buff blond kids, bicker at an eating club, and get rejected, I know these are completely irrational fears from deep in my own psyche - so I am discounting them. She knows better than I what her milieu is. She went to Princeton, so far she loved it, she has the data.</p>
<p>However, she doesn't know yet if she likes Stanford better. She might. Most of all she knows this world of Northern CA and she knows how to be successful in it. This might translate to knowing how to be successful at Stanford. Now as far as the actual subjects she is interested in, it's not the reputation but the actual experience that might be better at Stanford due to size of department, resources, etc. That would make a difference along with the social familiarity. The two colleges are both way more than sufficiently prestigious.</p>
<p>So the best way to put it is that I wish Princeton would turn out to be the right place for her because it will be the best overall intellectual experience possible - including the newness of the East Coast - but I am open to the chance that there is not the right fit for either departmental or social reasons. And it is her call.</p>
<p>The two pieces of yet-ungathered information are these:</p>
<ol>
<li>Does Stanford actually have better ballet, bio, psych, chances to study in a Spanish-speaking country and will the "betterness" translate to her undergraduate experience?</li>
<li>Does Stanford really feel more right to her? Are the kids more her type? Is the social structure more conducive to, as she puts it, sheer joy and exuberance? Is she more likely to find good girlfriends and a great BF?</li>
</ol>
<p>Although you acknowledged that it is an "irrational fear", I must comment on your worry that the kids at Princeton will be smarter than the kids at Stanford. First of all, your daughter is plenty smart enough to excel at either school, obviously. But I don't know where you got the idea that Princeton has something over Stanford in the intelligence department. If you look at SAT ranges, for Princeton it is reported as 680-770 V, 690-790 M, and for Stanford, 660-770 V and 680-790M.They are pretty much identical for all intents and purposes. You can at least eliminate that particular idea from your worries.</p>
<p>MOT. It is just that that familiar seems less daunting. And impressions from growing up when Stanford used to be more a safe haven for wealthy Californians. At least I know I'm irrational, thanks for the data to reinforce my resolve to move towards rationality.</p>
<p>Re any lack of joy and exuberance, many students I've spoken to in the past week were just finishing up their junior paper. They were exhausted. I think folks on the East Coast often strike people from other parts of the country as grumpy, though, even when we are being friendly. ;-)</p>
<p>Alumother - It's all a matter of perspective. I wasn't at all familiar with Stanford before my son applied. He was the one who read up on it, etc. and he told me when he applied, "I doubt I'll get in. You have to be REALLY outstanding. It is much harder to get into than MIT, Harvard, or Princeton." I guess the opposite coast must seem intimidating from either direction.</p>
<p>It is a list of the top 100 universities in the world. It has Stanford at #2, Cal at #4, and Princeton running a distant 7th place. If this was the Olympics, Stanford would be the only school to medal.</p>
<p>My guess is that you have decided that Princeton somehow is a "better" college than Stanford based on US News rankings... which is your right... but I don't see why their ranking system is better than anyone else's. </p>
<p>Honestly - I don't think there's a dime's worth of difference in the academic quality of your daughter's choices -- she can get a top rate, excellent education at any one of them. Berkeley would be harder if she thrives in small groups with a lot of attention.... on the other hand, for a student with a more independent, self-directed learning style (does best by reading independently, feels bored by lectures and class discussions) - Cal might be ideal. </p>
<p>Anyway, I personally am going with the notion of Cal being #2 in the world - as a Cal alum that makes me happy. But if your daughter decides to dredge down to 9th place with Princeton because she likes the eating clubs or east coast.... I won't hold it against you. ;)</p>
<p>Calmom, Alumother is a graduate of..................Princeton.</p>
<p>I'm with you. I would choose Berkeley and I would never even apply to Princeton. Princeton is a top school though---- I just don't fit at that school.</p>
<p>I am really surprised by Thedad's comments. I live 30 minutes from Berkeley and almost everyone I know loves that school, warts and all.
I run into alum and students from there all the time. Those Southern Cal folks...what can you do with them? :)</p>