Steve Jobs Blames Education Problems on Teacher Unions

Parents Forum
341

<p>wharfrat, re your post 340:</p>

<p>I should have qualified my statement: mine is more true on the elem/middle level (and includes those attending privates -- perhaps esp. attending privates; naturally because their kids attend privates, the kids must be special). On the h.s.level I, too, have seen parents urge teachers to relax a standard, or a grade/mark. I have peer parents who call up teachers in the rigorous school our highschoolers attend, "reminding" the teacher that the student "needs" a higher grade when applying to X college, "needs" a certain GPA, etc. Some of these parents go to extraordinary lengths with team conferences at school (including heads of dept's, school administrators) badgering the teacher to --if not outright change the grade, which is dishonest-- allow the student extra credit or compensating opportunities, such as retaking a test, etc. I have to really bite my tongue with one of these parents, as she is a close friend of mine; she has often made a spectacle of herself at school with regard to special consideration for her child.</p>

<p>So what does it profit the student to be admitted to a college above the student's ability? It doesn't benefit, of course.</p>

<p>Yes, your examples are credible.</p>

342

<p>I had a parent call me last year and ask me to change a grade because her son would not be eligible for a hockey league in the community. The community league enforces high school standards for eligibility and her ex-husband had put down a $700.00 non-refundable deposit so the son could play. That was the basis for the request. Of course, I refused to change the grade and after a couple of other unsuccessful attempts with other teachers Mom finally gave up.</p>

<p>Here's the kicker, two weeks later when I tried to call home to discuss her son's grade, Mom lied when she answered the phone and said I had the wrong number. (I know she lied because I redialed the same number, got the same parent, and again she said it wasn't her.) When I asked the son if his phone number had changed he didn't know what I was talking about.</p>

<p>I had another case where a mom came in for a conference. Her son was failing every class. When I told her that in my class her son openly made references to drug use, and spoke many times of his desire to move to Amsterdam because of their lenient drug laws she responded that she resented the implication that her son was using drugs. They had a very open relationship and when she asked him if he was using drugs he told her he had tried pot once but didn't like the way it made him feel so he had never done it again.</p>

<p>That's a whole different thread of its' own. Often when you meet parents the only question you have is how the kid was doing as well as they were.</p>

343

<p>I posted earlier in this thread (<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=3638000#post3638000%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=3638000#post3638000&lt;/a> ), how the public schools do not spend enough time focusing on the basics (reading, writing, and math). I mentioned that the public schools divert students time away from the basics, and toward every imaginable social issue. I mentioned that the local public high schools have discussions, assemblies, outside speakers, on every controversial social issue, and that they even support students going off campus (during school hours) to march in support of these social issues. My conclusion (in my earlier post) was that if, and only if, the schools (principal and teachers) have the basics covered so completely that EVERY student graduates with competence in reading, writing, and math, (and sciences, history, fine arts, etc) then they have the time to consider the many social issues that are important (to the teachers).</p>

<p>Some may have thought that i was exaggerating (about the extent of how much the schools support such activities), for the purpose of making a point. Not. </p>

<p>Below is a portion of a recent article from our local paper. I have removed the names of cities, and persons listed in the article (to maintain anonymity).</p>

<p>Isn't this just wonderful, that the school principal is sponsoring and joining his students as they leave campus for 2 hours to protest some social issue. Meanwhile, in the local public high schools, only 33% of the students take the SAT. The drop-out rate and the low percentage of graduating students that go onto college is an embarrassment to our county. There were several high schools that participated in this event, and it was not the first time that students have been encouraged to leave school during class hours. </p>

<p>====================
* Young demonstrators, including more than 300 High-School-Name students, took to the streets Tuesday in Cityname and Other-Cityname to protest the Iraq war. The demonstrations were coordinated with national efforts by college students, all timed for the fourth anniversary of the start of the war.</p>

<p>"We're tired of people dying in war," said Firstname Lastname, a HighSchoolName sophomore who joined classmates in a four-mile march through Cityname.</p>

<p>Principal FirstName Lastname, other school staff members and a CityName police officer accompanied the students and ordered them to stay out of the traffic lanes.</p>

<p>"I was there for safety," PrincipalName said after the students returned to classes two hours later.</p>

<p>In Other-CityName, about 60 young demonstrators briefly blocked several intersections.</p>

<p>"I'm here because I'm tired of people being racist in this war and only killing Iraqis," said Firstname Lastname, 16.</p>

<p>"I think we should get the hell out because we already found the person that we need there, Saddam Hussein," she said.</p>

<p>In CityName, the students expressed confidence that their protest would make a difference, especially when added to voices across the country. </p>

<p>Students carried signs saying "Teach Peace," "U.S. out of Iraq" and "Impeach Cheney" as they made their way west. They encouraged passing motorists to honk in support of the march.</p>

<p>In the early stages, the students responded weakly to the chants of those with a bullhorn. But by the time they were walking on Streetname, they were raising their voices together to shout, "Hey, Bush, what do you say? How many kids have you killed today?"</p>

<p>The CityName march began at about 1 p.m. at the Xxxxxxxxx Center and headed toward downtown. Demonstrators briefly blocked traffic at the intersections of Streetname Street and Streetname Boulevard, and Streetname and Streetname streets, police said.</p>

<p>The demonstrators then marched to Streetname Street and Streetname Boulevard, where they formed a circle around the intersection and chanted: "One, two, three, four, we don't want your racist war; five, six, seven, eight, stop the war, stop the hate."</p>

<p>Other-CityName Police Lt. Firstname Lastname surveyed the protest briefly, then stepped into the middle of the circle and warned the demonstrators that they would be arrested if they stayed in the intersection.</p>

<p>The demonstrators moved down the boulevard and briefly blocked two other downtown intersections before settling down at Plazaname Plaza.</p>

<p>* =========================================</p>

<p>** They may not graduate from high school, or if they do, they may not go onto college. But i guess we should be thankful that their school taught them how to protest. What a useful skill this will be for them as they grow into their adulthood. And people wonder why our schools are doing so poorly.**</p>

344

<p>Enlighten me please as to exactly how teachers unions are to blame for this.</p>

345

<p>My complaint was with the public school system (in general) and not with teachers unions, per se. It is in public schools, that I have seen such abuses. The private school where my son went to high school focused on the basics (reading, writing, math, etc.), and his school took those basics up through college level (AP, Honors) classes. I realize that public schools likewise have college level (AP, Honors) classes. However, my son's private high school did not entertain every social issue. </p>

<p>Since you focus on the "union" aspect of this thread, let me ask you a couple of quick and easy questions.</p>

<p>(1) Do you agree with schools spending time on the many social issues that burden society? Especially, when we both know that far too many students are NOT competent in the basics (reading, writing, and math).</p>

<p>(2) Are you supportive of private schools? Or only public schools?</p>

346

<p>ltc,
It is my opinion that the substitution of instructional time for "protest education" is not supportable. (Ha -- you must be in my State! :()It is also problematic from the perspective of teacher-student relationships, as well as teacher-parent relationships. The role of the teacher is not to advocate for particular political causes directly in the classroom (let alone to carry those outside to an enforced group activity). I do not share my political beliefs with my students or their parents, as I believe it makes both feel uncomfortable. I do not do so even when I'm 99% sure that a particular family shares my beliefs. The power gap between teacher and student makes such displays improper, i.m.o. The role of the teacher is to instruct, inform, encourage the exchange of ideas, and to support the process of forming opinions, whatever those opinions may be -- including (more importantly) an understanding of how one's opinions are formed, and the influences theron. The role of the teacher is not to engage in political indoctrination. This is why there are in high school student newspapers, clubs, alliances, community service opportunities, etc. -- in which such free expression, advocacy, & strong opinions can find an outlet.</p>

<p>At my daughters' private h.s., there are such out-of-class opportunities, and they do not interfere with instructional time. OTOH, in ethics classes, students are often asked to discuss current issues, but these are academic exercises, designed to help them understand the reasons behind controversies and the histories of various controversies. Ultimately, students may come to their own conclusions as a result of such research and their own reflections on it, but that is a by-product, not the end-goal of the curriculum. (Propaganda is not pedagogy.)</p>

<p>The above is my opinion even when and if any particular class is doing well academically and "can afford" release from class time. the consistent invasion of popular political viewpoints into the daily curriculum (and choice of curriculum) is one of the many fundamental problems in my State, affecting many features of public K-12 education. This trend began without any particular influence from unions, to my knowledge. However, the fact that unions have not stepped up to the plate about it is something I find reprehensible, as I've said before. Teacher pay in my State is beyond disgusting and disrespectful, particularly since those with the most challenging classes are often not union-protected. More appalling, however, is the surrender of curriculum decisions to State entities that are politically driven. I do not consider a union that focuses on a narrow range of issues, a professional organization; I consider it a bargaining group, that's all. Any organization that does not take leadership on the big issues such as policy, educational design, and classroom priorities, is not an organization I can respect & identify with.</p>

347

<p>Epiphany could it simply be the case that teachers unions have bigger problems to deal with than the "invasion" of politics into the classroom? I doubt that in the grand scheme of things that is issue #1 for teachers, parents kids or administrators dissatisfied with the system.</p>

348

<p>By the way, could you explain what you mean by 'political indoctrination' in the classroom? I'm not arguing, I'm just curious, because both my children experienced private (non-religious) charter and 'regular' schools, and as far as I am aware never were exposed to any overt 'propaganda.'</p>

349

<p>"(1) Do you agree with schools spending time on the many social issues that burden society? Especially, when we both know that far too many students are NOT competent in the basics (reading, writing, and math)."</p>

<p>Love, I guess it depends on where you live to know the answer to this question. If you're the single parent mom of three who spent the school year living in her car in the parking lot of my spouse's elementary school, some education about social issues might be OK in the classroom. no? If a child is unable or parents unwilling to take an interest in the child's social upbringing, what's left? </p>

<p>Do teachers look forward to these types of situations? No. Do they do their best to help? Most of the time a resounding yes, from buying clothes for students to providing breakfast and lunch, knowing that those WILL be the kids only meals that day. </p>

<p>Alot of stuff goes on in public schools that shouldn't be there. BUT, it does no good to point fingers and make political statements when the kid is there and hungry. </p>

<p>It's hard to be compedent in learning skills when your cold and hungry. </p>

<p>(2) Are you supportive of private schools? Or only public schools?"</p>

<p>I support both. Private schools serve a purpose too. I don't think anyone is clamoring to remove private schools are they? </p>

<p>Besides, it's so easy to teach isn't it?</p>

350

<p>"could it simply be the case that teachers unions have bigger problems to deal with than the "invasion" of politics into the classroom? I doubt that in the grand scheme of things that is issue #1 for teachers, parents kids or administrators dissatisfied with the system."</p>

<p>What could be more important than the content of what is taught in the classroom? Than the substitution of politics (or any popular issues) for any of the pedagogical priorities I listed in my previous post? Than the empowerment of teachers to perform their licensed responsibilities? (versus 75-85% of every teaching day consumed with student needs not related to academics). Than the robbing of long-time residents to an entitled education by virtue of critical majorities of non-English-speaking students in most classrooms, and the concurrent refusal of an administration for separate teaching of fluent students? Teacher pay is <em>not</em> more important to me than these. What integrity is there in being paid even a million dollars to do something that neither my credential allows me to do nor than the taxpayers of my State are paying me to do (& assume I will do)? </p>

<p>What teacher unions do (when a district, a principal, a parent group, a school board, a state dept of education requires them or pressures them into performing inappropriate roles) is merely to demand more pay, but acquiesce to the roles! And there is not enough state money to compensate a public teacher within market standards for the roles of social worker and psychiatrist. The budget would break probably paying even one district for such unlicensed combined services.</p>

<p>I don't understand some of you people, I really don't. </p>

<p>The invasion of politics into the classroom is merely one manifestation of the larger bastardization of the teaching function. If a teacher feels so strongly about an issue that he or she cannot refrain from requiring attendance at a rally/march/fill-in-the-blank DURING SCHOOL HOURS, then that teacher needs to switch careers: lobbyist, politician, activist would be more appropriate roles. Political indoctrination, if you will, is implied by the description previously given by LTC; I'm not going to repeat it all here. To me it is quite self-evident. And if parents here are just peachy keen with the reassigning of teachers from teaching roles into activist roles, then I'm not sympathetic with any of their whining about substandard results or test scores or literacy.</p>

351

<p>It is SO easy to teach. That's why it's such a stable profession with so little turnover. </p>

<p>This whole blame-the-unions attitude is so reductive & simplistic. But as they say, for every complex problem there is a simple solution... that is probably wrong.</p>

352

<p><a href="1">quote</a> Do you agree with schools spending time on the many social issues that burden society? Especially, when we both know that far too many students are NOT competent in the basics (reading, writing, and math).</p>

<p>(2) Are you supportive of private schools? Or only public schools?
Today 03:47 PM

[/quote]
</p>

<ol>
<li><p>My perspective may be somewhat different as I am a Social Studies teacher. One of the basic purposes of teaching students to be active, informed citizens is to encourage them to participate in our democratic system. In fact the thing I love most about my discipline is the frequent opportunities it presents to address controversial subjects whether they be in an historical context or a current event. That would include obviously, encouraging them to voice their opinions whether at the polls, through letters to the editor, by contacting public officials, etc. Does that include advocating a particular position? In my opinion, it does not. However, I do believe in helping my students to develop a healthy skepticism regardless of the party in power. I do think though that students need to be presented with evidence that supports a variety of positions on an issue, not just that which supports either a liberal or a conservative perspective. If my students felt strongly about protesting against the war I would encourage them to do so. If another felt strongly about counter protesting the same position, I would encourage them to do so as well.</p></li>
<li><p>As I have stated many times before in this forum I have no problem with private education. Parents have every right to enroll their children in private schools. I do however, have an extremely big problem with those same parents expecting the government to help subsidize their choice to do so.</p></li>
</ol>

353

<p>"That's why it's such a stable profession with so little turnover."</p>

<p>Hopefully you are being as sarcastic as I was?</p>

354

<p>epiphany,
"What could be more important than the content of what is taught in the classroom?"
-- howabout the content of a hungry child's stomach? Or the determination whether a child is 'slow' or has a learning disability? Or the logistics of meeting the needs of 25 kids (in a room built for 15) whose skills range from non-existent to highly advanced? Or even keeping kids sane in a non-conditioned classroom when outside temps reach 100+? </p>

<p>These are real issues faced by real teachers -- and their unions -- every day. Much of the politics you're talking about stems from non-union administrators who force newfangled and untested theories into the classrooms to justify their (the administrators') salaries. Remember whole-language reading? Or new math? Teachers hated them and with good reason.</p>

355

<p>Yes Opie, I was.</p>

356

<p>If post 351 is referring to me, I deny that I have ever indicted unions in such a deterministic or simplistic way. If you believe so, please reread my posts. I'm talking about leadership (the lack thereof). I'm talking about moral convictions that extend way beyond one's wallet & one's class size, and as far as I'm concerned, precede and overshadow those as well.</p>

<p>I do not understand people who would want to go into teaching, who do not have broader moral convictions about their profession, and are willing to take a stand for those. And those who are just fine with a focus on pocketbook & "job conditions" issues, to whom do you look for role models, if not teachers? Politicians? Hey, there's a consistently reliable group. True teachers never lose their idealism; they may lose fantasies & expectations, but not idealism, not principles. While it's skill & talent that enable long-term success in education, it's the idealism that separates the wheat from the chaff, and fulfills the unique role that society should expect of teachers: to inspire. You leave that all to your rabbis, priests, ministers?</p>

357

<p>
[quote]
The invasion of politics into the classroom is merely one manifestation of the larger bastardization of the teaching function.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, when I wake up in the morning my first thought is "Oh, boy I get to go brainwash my kids again today!"</p>

<p>Because it's not important for kids to know for example that Woodrow Wilson's condemnation of Germany for the sinking of the Lusitania completely ignored the fact that the British were using men, women, and children as human shields for the transporation of munitions as we learned in my A.P. class yesterday. Oh, and by the way he was a suffrage opposing Democrat.</p>

<p>Please! Give me a break!</p>

358

<p>epiphany,
"True teachers never lose their idealism" -- ah, but the problem is that what one teacher perceives as being idealistic could be interpreted by someone else (such as you) as being political. Kind of a pickle, isn't it?</p>

<p>By the way, I love my teachers to be idealistic because I myself am idealistic. But my idealism is probably different from your idealism. This is a bit of a slippery slope, isn't it?</p>

359

<p>Post 354 implies a passivity I do not accept. It illustrates the lack of leadership I discuss.</p>

<p>"how about the content of a hungry child's stomach?"<br>
It may be "more important" (because more essential) in societal terms & in practical terms, but it is not relevant to the teacher's role. Period. If society agrees to take responsiblity for feeding hungry students before they begin the school day, then they should be requiring funding & employment of personnel to do the feeding. (Otherwise, do not complain about results.) I did not get credentialed as a cook or social worker. This is social work, not teaching.</p>

<p>"Or the determination whether a child is 'slow' or has a learning disability?"<br>
There are procedures & administrative specialists for this, quite well funded in our state. (Better funded than classroom teachers, & with heavy administrative support & mandates.) No classroom teacher should be consuming general classroom time with "determining" LD (other than trained silent observation through the course of the school day; it takes me almost no time to notice LD while I'm doing other things, because I've made it a point to self-train in recogniziing its many manifestations). There are specific mandated procedures in place for referral & for ensuring that this is addressed by specialists. </p>

<p>"Or the logistics of meeting [a large range of abilities & styles]?"<br>
Well, that's my job, & at least that's in the teaching department. That's different than meeting the <em>psychiatric</em> needs of PTSD & Asperger's & acting-out, untreated ADD-ers, and out-of-control students with zero boundaries at home & no teacher authority for boundary-setting in the classroom. A minimum of 50% of all <em>fluent</em>, English-speaking students I encounter in classrooms are not behaviorally ready for any standard, mainstreamed classroom environment. These latter conditions are not the "conditions" I hear about in teacher union strikes & protests. If they think they're publicizing these -- that the public is receiving the message -- then unions need new spokespeople & new publicists. the public is hearing much more superficial messages than these.</p>

360

<p>katlia,
I think you're understanding very little of what I'm saying, possibly because you seem to be focusing on interpreting certain words in ways with limited meanings. Politics does not equal idealism. I am not talking about the "idealism" implied by an interest in issues. I'm talking about the idealism implied in committing to a profession. (Such as the idealism implied by a commitment to the field of medicine.) I'm not going to repeat everything I said. I thought that the context of idealism such as I pinpointed it within a commitment to the ideals of one's <em>profession</em> was well explained.</p>

<p>It has nothing to do with taking political stands, so no: it's not a "pickle".</p>

<p>And I don't know what you mean by your slippery slope reference. But I have to leave now, to conduct an open house for our school.</p>