Steve Jobs Blames Education Problems on Teacher Unions

<p>"Do they work from late June to day before Labor Day - nope, unless on a district project for which they earn additional $$."</p>

<p>So that would be like a second job no? Should they not be allowed to work within a school district and be compensated for it? </p>

<p>I mean I'm all for my school district's young teachers taking second jobs at the local strip club for extra money. It makes absolutely no sense for them to earn a second income for working an extra activity for a school district. </p>

<p>I'd much rather shove dollars in their g-strings... I mean the shop teacher used to really apprieciate it, he could use the money. :) </p>

<p>Think about your arguement, it's about earning extra money to supplement income. Should that NOT be allowed? Simplify, it's a second job, that's all it is.</p>

<p>When my wife's not stripping, she's compensated for chairing the highly capable program testing for the school district. This involves giving up her Saturdays (all day) several times to spend the days testing, scoring, evaluating and deciding on which students qualify for the highly capable programs. But if you or other parents don't like it, I'm sure she could get her job back at the strip club..;) There are worse ways for a teacher to earn a little extra money. aren't there?</p>

<p>Here's a little bit more on that strike, lovetocamp. Not that I expect you to actually be reasonable here ;) </p>

<p>"Both sides agree that a roughly 25% raise over the four-year contract would be fair, but union officials say the administration's offer was "virtual money" with "lots of strings and contingencies" that would reduce the actual amount of the raises. They say they would take a true 25% increase if it were offered.</p>

<p>Union officials argue that administrators and executives have received pay raises and perks while faculty have been told there wasn't enough money to increase their salaries.</p>

<p>Cal State spokeswoman Clara Potes-Fellow said the university system is trying to close the "salary gap" that all employees in the system are facing because of a constrained budget.</p>

<p>The average starting salary for a full-time assistant professor is about $55,000, according to Travis, roughly 14% behind other institutions. "</p>

<p>Full article here:
<a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-calstate22mar22,1,3260785.story?coll=la-headlines-california&ctrack=1&cset=true%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-calstate22mar22,1,3260785.story?coll=la-headlines-california&ctrack=1&cset=true&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I also thought this was interesting; same article</p>

<p>"If the strikes should occur, Potes-Fellow said the university system will try to maintain a campus life that is "as normal as possible."</p>

<p>Less than half the university system's faculty members belong to the California Faculty Assn., and Potes-Fellow said the university system does not expect all faculty to strike.</p>

<p>The vote results came one day after the California Faculty Assn. released a report that said the Cal State system had more than $1.25 billion in cash reserves, enough to cover the divisive salary issue.</p>

<p>But university officials said the money was "already encumbered" — to repay bonds for building university facilities."</p>

<p>Loved the starting salary -- $55,000. Try living on that in the Los Angeles area and still pay off grad school loans. A 23-year old cousin of mine who did not graduate from college makes close to this as a secretary in the LA area...</p>

<p>I mean I'm all for my school district's young teachers taking second jobs at the local strip club for extra money. It makes absolutely no sense for them to earn a second income for working an extra activity for a school district.
<a href="http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/144785_marysville21.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/144785_marysville21.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>For the 2002-2003 school year- Marysville teachers were paid 2nd highest in the state-the average certificated annual salary in 2003 in Marysville was $54,169- teachers with a masters degree- and 15 years experience make $70,000- basic salary.</p>

<p>I don't expect anyone fresh out of college to be making a lot of money- I will be thrilled if my daughter for instance tops $20,000 this year- since she is turning 25, I hope she would at least make that much-and although she doesn't have any benefits, I would be jumping up and down if she had medical insurance as most union jobs insure.</p>

<p>Beginning teachers in Marysville start at $36,471, not counting benefits or add ons. I don't know what salary that others make, to have the perspective that almost $23 an hour is a bad salary for right out of college, but from my point of view it is pretty good.</p>

<p>So student achievement, considering the fairly homogenous population and numbers of families moving there for the schools should be pretty good, no?</p>

<p>But only 39% passed the Math WASL, which is required for graduation- lucky for them the state decided that graduates don't have to pass the 10th grade level math test after all.</p>

<p>*Katliamom - 25% over 4 years is 6.25% each year. Do you want to take a poll, and ask how many CC readers have received a 6.25% raise each year, over the last 4 years? * I have not, and i bet the vast majority of CC readers likewise have NOT received those kind of raises. (I am not saying it is not possible, just that the vast majority of workers do not see raises in those ranges, over 3 or 4 year period.).</p>

<p>In terms of being 15% behind other institutions, is that your goal? To be equal to, or higher than other institutions? </p>

<p>Do you want me, or other CC readers, to compare our pay to that of other comparable companies and corporations? I would go crazy with frustration if that is what I spent my time doing. There are many companies that, in fact, DO pay their workers (like for like) more money than i make. So what? Does it just irritate the heck out of you, that someone might make more money doing the same job as you. You have too much time on your hand, if you have enough time to fret about that.</p>

<p>I read above, in other posts, about teachers who do work at home (grading papers, etc.). You must live in a dream world to think that you have it bad. </p>

<p>Have you ever had a conversation with someone in a profession who is "on-call" on a regular basis? Do you have any idea what it is like, being woken up at 11:30pm by a page and working for an hour on a problem. Then you go back to bed, get 30 more minutes of sleep, and then you are woken by another page. Work for another hour or two. Attempt to get some sleep, and you are woken again. Unless you have been in that situation, you have no idea how tired you can get, when your sleep is disturbed over and over again in the same night. Then, let that continue for a week or more. See how tired you are after a week of little or no sleep. Which is why on-call scenarios are typically rotated, one week at a time. By the end of the week, you are totally drained. (As busy as my on-call weeks are, i can not even begin to imagine how an doctor, who is on-call, and who deals with possbile life and death situations, can deal with it.) </p>

<p>I just realized that most of you (mothers) CAN relate to being on-call. Remember those first few weeks, after your baby came home from the hospital, and you had to get up every couple of hours. It was probably a long time ago for most of you (since you are posting comments on a COLLEGE discussion website). Do you remember how tired you were. Do you remember how much you wanted your husband to take the night shift so that you could FINALLY get some sleep. Hopefully, you remember how THANKFUL you were when your little ones starting sleeping through the night (or at least 4 hours in one stretch). </p>

<p>Those of us, who have jobs that require on-call support, have "kids" that never grow up. For the last 23 years, I have been on-call. It is not every week. I have a couple of few weeks in between. Then, it is 7x24 for one full week. </p>

<p>Some of you complain about grading some papers at night. You really have no idea what other people go through in terms of stress. </p>

<p>Here's an idea. Provide the parents (of your students) with your home phone number, and let them take turns calling you THROUGHOUT THE NIGHT to complain about some problem with their children, and THEN you might to start to appreciate the stress that some of the rest of us go through. </p>

<p>In case you have some idea about providing me with a FULL list of the other stresses in your job (that i do not encounter), please don't. I did not start the postings with compaints about my job - it was you teachers who did. I ONLY included a brief description of on-call 7x24 stress, for the purpose of putthing things in perspective. (In all my postings, I have never complained about my job, and the many stresses that I encounter).</p>

<p>Some teachers seem SO dissatisfied with their pay, and with their jobs. I do NOT understand why such dissatisfied workers do not seek new careers. Imagine for a moment, that you are now a job counselor. Someone comes in for an appointment with you to discuss their job. They complain about their pay, and about having to stay late at the office on a regular basis. They complain about having to bring some of the work home at night. You ask if they can discuss it with their boss, and make some changes. They tell you "no". The situation can not be changed. They come in several times, over the next few months. Each time, they complain about their pay, and about working late, and bringing work home. As their paid job counselor, WHAT WOULD YOU TELL THEM IS ONE SOLUTION TO THEIR PROBLEM? It doesn't get any more obvious. You would surely tell them to find a different line of work, a different career. Right?</p>

<p>I guess you missed the part where they said they'd ACCEPT a 25% raise over 4 years -- IF THEY WERE OFFERED IT.</p>

<p>I have yet to read a post in this thread in which teachers have "complained" about how hard we have it. I have read posts that stated matter of factly the hours we put in and the conditions under which we work regularly.</p>

<p>I LOVE my career and I say that with no sarcasm. My only purpose in detailing the conditions under which I teach is to refute the seemingly common misperception that teachers are underworked and overpaid.</p>

<p>wharf:</p>

<p>of course, teacher pay is paid over 10 months bcos that is the ten months that they work. Some teachers also teach summer school, for which they recieve additional compensation. Others take up pole dancing :D, or pickup other work. Others veg at the beach. On a per hour basis, teachers do reasonably well. The average teacher salary in Calif is $58k. Divide by 180 and 8 and the hourly rate is in excess of $40. </p>

<p>katliamom: may I assume your cuz works 12 months a year, with only two weeks vacation (about the same as an academic winter break)?</p>

<p>emerald,</p>

<p>Just go to the state opsi website you can find all sorts of stuff that would make a better arguement either way than five years ago. We did this before and I went through the demographics of the situation. Maybe you didn't see it before when it was addressed to you on the other post. It allowed you to see the scores as bad as they were are still better than your school district. Should I go find it and we can revisit? </p>

<p>You also seem to want to create an arguement I haven't yet. READ my stuff and tell me where I make the statement you seem to want to put in my mouth all the time. I am more than willing to go through the demographics with you again. If I have time I will pull them up from before. I don't think you had any comeback before to the actual information on the opsi website. Maybe I missed it?</p>

<p>"Provide the parents (of your students) with your home phone number, and let them take turns calling you THROUGHOUT THE NIGHT to complain about some problem with their children, and THEN you might to start to appreciate the stress that some of the rest of us go through. "</p>

<p>Gee, they actually have and do call our house anytime they feel like it and we take the calls. </p>

<p>I am sorry your life is so hard that you must spend countless minutes putting down another's job. How are you at art galleries? Or pro sports? doctors, oh don't get me started... ;) </p>

<p>I always am amazed at the number of perfect people that occupy this space, with ideas and plans for everybody else. It's always "I'm better than you because..... "</p>

<p>I just always go by the belief that God sees everything and alot of things will keep me out of heaven, supporting hard working teachers isn't one of them. I'm sure God will understand your beef with teachers, as they aren't worhty beings for their efforts. I am certain my spouse will burn in hell for teaching. I mean, Jesus loves the pole dancers, everybody knows that. </p>

<p>Good luck all! May God Bless.</p>

<p>blue,
I personally don't know any teacher who works only 180 days/yr and an average of 8 hrs/day.</p>

<p>Weekends, before-hours prep, evening papers, after-school mandatory e.c. sponsorship/participation, staff meetings, manadatory minimum Professional Development, summer workshops not reimbursed, summer classroom planning, etc. Those numbers are quite unrealisitc. And again, the figures "work" when/where teachers are unionized. Hundreds of charter school teachers are not unionized, nor do they have job security, yet these are among the most dedicated & qualified group around. (Serious about teaching & its conditions, they often choose a charter situation which allows them more control, but far less pay and zero security.)</p>

<p>blue, when you ask about my cuz, I assume you're referring to the length of an acdemic year for professors. So let me tell you, as the wife of a former tenured university professor, and someone who has been around academics her whole life (I come from an academic family) -- young professors teach in the summer. And when they're not teaching, they're performing required (unpaid) service to the university - committtees, student projects etc., -- conducting office hours and attending to that minor little detail: research. Ever hear the expression publish or perish?</p>

<p>blue, BTW, my cuz does work 12 months a year. Actually has 3 weeks vacation. And also has no higher education nor graduate school loans to repay. She is also younger than the average assistant professor, hence doesn't face such issues as LA housing and child care costs on a $55,000/year salary.</p>

<p>epiph:</p>

<p>I've already acknowledged that public school teachers can work long days during the school year. But, those same teachers that work over the summer around here receive additional comp.</p>

<p>I must have missed that part. Thanks for pointing that out. (It is still a huge raise).</p>

<p>I will continue my question, which was directed to all. I address it to you. </p>

<p>Doesn't it seem that many teachers are very dissatisfied with their job (their pay, the hours, the conditions, etc.)? </p>

<p>If your sister, or your daughter, or your best girlfriend, kept complaining about her job, wouldn't you suggest to her that she consider a different career? </p>

<p>Probably 99% of people who are employed can find one (or more) things to complain about, with their job. Probably 75% of the people employed, can find an example of someone doing similar work who is getting paid more. </p>

<p>A co-worker of mine has a saying. "If your wheaties are there in the morning, then the rest doesn't matter". (This all started many years ago). Initially, it did not have much meaning for me. What a dumb thing to say "my wheaties were there today, so I'm ok". Back then, many years ago, i used to get frustrated with many of our company's policies. Many policies and procedures made no sense at all, they seemed like busy-work, and a complete waste of time. Other policies were not fairly or equitably administered. Some workgroups received opportunities that i felt that our workgroup deserved. I used to complain to him (my co-worker). He's a good frined, and was always willing to listen. The BS never seemed to bother him. He was always very calm. He never seemed to get upset at the ridiculous policies, and inequities. His response (via phone or email) was to make some reference to his "wheaties were there in the morning, so he was ok". Finally, after hearing that numerous times, it started to sink in. As more time went by, it sank in deeper and deeper. In essence, he is saying "be content in your situation, in your circumstances". What he did not say directly, but was there (between the lines) is that there will always be problems and issues in an employment situation. If you have the power (decision making authority) to enact a change, then do so. If not, then don't sweat it. Don't EVEN think about it. That is much easier to say, then it is to do. However, for me, my discontent became so bad, that i was becoming miserable in my job. And it was over things that i did not have the decision making authority to change. It finally started affecting my relationships at home. I decided to make some changes. I could either quit my job, or change the way i viewed, and approached my job. I slowly started overlooking and ignoring the BS. If we were required to fill-out seemingly useless forms, I just took a deep breath and filled them out without thinking about how stupid they were. If we were required to take new online company courses - that were unrelated to my job, and that seemed like a waste of time- i just resigned myself to doing it (and started to forget about how stupid it was). If i was required to be on-call more often, then in the past, i took a new view of it. I started to take "one hour, or even one minute, at a time". Through it all, i remembered that "my wheaties were there each morning". (my lovely wife, my darling kids were at home, and were doing just fine. - my wheaties were there each morning. My paycheck continued to be deposited into our banking account every payday (my wheaties were there each morning). Could my paycheck have been higher? In the past, I would have thought about and even fretted over such inequities. However, after incorporating into my life, my co-worker's dumb motto, my life literally changed. Over time (this was years ago), it changed drastically for the better. I am, in general, a much happier person, and a much happier employee, father, and husband, due to the change. Do i still feel passion about things? If you read some of my complaints, in earlier post, you can see that i still get upset. My suggestions to teachers (and all), is to learn be content if your wheaties are there each morning. It is, in essence, a paraphrase of Neibuhr Reinhold Niebuhr's prayer, commonly known as the Serenity Prayer: Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference". The focus, in this case, with the wheaties, is to accept what you can not change, and to be happy with what you have. Count your blessings.</p>

<p>Your teaching job is what it is. You are getting paid what you are getting paid. The conditions are what they are. If you are miserable, then you have three choices.</p>

<p>(1) Consider changing careers. Find something that you enjoy more, and/or that pays more.</p>

<p>(2) Find a way to overlook the negatives within your job. Forget about the pay. Forget about the fact that you have to stay late, or bring work home. Focus on what, if anything, that you enjoy within your job. Or, at a minimum, focus on the fact that you ARE earning a paycheck. You are alive, and living, and hopefully, healthy.</p>

<p>(3) Continue to complain about your job, and your pay, and working conditions. You willl likely become more miserable, in your job, and in your life. If you make that choice, then live with your choice, and don't burden the rest of us with your complaints about your job. (Realize that we all have problems and stresses within our jobs as well.).</p>

<p>we also give teachers/staff comp for attending meetings- for sponsoring clubs etc.
I remember one instance- when I was chair of a parent group and we were hosting a silent auction at the school to raise money for school programs.
We had to pay for the building - lights, maintainance staff etc- out of the proceeds.
Ok to be expected right?
Several teachers showed up- again it is often the same ones, who will be involved whether they are compensated or not. Some just to purchase ( we had many talented artists in the parent community for example who had donated lovely pieces) some to participate in Karaoke, and submit themselves to humilation to raise money!- this was much appreciated :D</p>

<p>The school security staff person was there-, I don't remember how long, as I was running back and forth the entire time. But while it was probably out of character for him to attend ( although the custodial staff was also in attendance, some making quite a few contributions), since he usually spends the day in his office reading the paper ( the parent room is right outside and you can hear him turning the pages), I didn't really think anything of it.
However, afterwards he presented us with a bill for his wages, as he apparently was on "duty".!
Too bad, he didn't let us know at the time, since we could have suggested that he monitor some of the higher ticket items ( a few were stolen).</p>

<p>I won't argue that some teachers are very dedicated, and deserve more compensation.
However- we have also had many teachers who don't deserve what they are getting now, let alone any extra- and if I was principal, I would get rid of that security staff right away- whats the point of winking at the middle school and high school kids to go off campus to do what ever?</p>

<p>In some ways, the unions can promote higher costs, because of inefficencies like that. If one isn't doing their job, someone else needs to be hired to do it, except now you have to call the position something different.</p>

<p>Like when Seattle created a Chief academic officer position to make up for the fact that the superintendent didnt' have any educational experience.
Now its a new job with its own underlings ( and their own salary)</p>

<p>
[quote]
of course, teacher pay is paid over 10 months bcos that is the ten months that they work.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My comment was in response to xiggi who implied that the NEA objected to Jack Dale's proposition that teachers' work year be extended to 11 months.
My response was that it would not be acceptable without additional compensation. Xiggi seemed to me to be inferring that teachers should be willing to work an additional month each year because we already receive a paycheck over the summer.</p>

<p>blue,
well it's not true around here. It is expected that teachers work during/through the summer (largely -- with about a 2-3 week break). That is not additionally compensated versus "the academic year" (ie. classroom days). It is merely that the 9 or 10-month salary is distributed over 12 months, for practical reasons.</p>

<p>EK, our teachers do NOT get extra compensation for sponsorship of clubs, for meeting or e.c. participation, etc. Considered part of the salary, & in fact in my daughters' case, even their <em>private</em> school teachers are similarly not compensated for such "after-hours" work. Again, considered part of a full-time teacher's duties.</p>

<p>wharf:</p>

<p>agreed -- more work should be compensated (and is in our district).</p>

<p>katlia: I see a HUGE difference between college profs and primary and secondary teachers (the latter two of which are the main subject of the original post re Jobs.)</p>