<p>Yes, but my $55K comment refered to college professors mentioned in the strike post by lovetocamp. </p>
<p>But I agree - primary, secondary teachers vs. professors - different story, apples & oranges.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My comment was in response to xiggi who implied that the NEA objected to Jack Dale's proposition that teachers' work year be extended to 11 months.
My response was that it would not be acceptable without additional compensation. Xiggi seemed to me to be inferring that teachers should be willing to work an additional month each year because we already receive a paycheck over the summer.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>BS to that and this whole argument! </p>
<p>Implying that the NEA would object to 11 months of work and 4 weeks of paid vacation? What a surprise that'd be! One has simply to read the declarations of Weingarten and Weaver to get an idea about their views on pay for work.</p>
<p>Inferring? No need for that, this is exactly what I think in that regard: teachers are paid an annual salary that represents a full time job. When statistics are presented, they represent annual salaries ... not a per hour or per week salary. </p>
<p>And, for the record, I firmly believe that teachers should indeed have their pay scales raised, but I also firmly believe they should be compensated for services that are year round and have vacation times that mimic the rest of the nation. In return for higher salaries, teachers would work 11-month contracts and accept more pay — or less — based on school and subject assignment, professional development and student performance. I also believe that teachers should be compensated for overtime over the 7.3 hours that is the average work day of a teacher, with the caveat that all services should be rendered at the place of employment or in an organized setting. This way there should be no need to take work home, and no need to claim unpaid services. </p>
<p>Our system is not failing because students are spending too much time in class. The school week and the school year is simply too short, and we are inventing all kinds of substitutes to compensate for it. </p>
<p>The current system is absurd. However, it did not happen by accident as much as by design! There are no winners here.</p>
<p>xiggi you're awsome. I must praise you. (at least from this point on.);)</p>
<p>Opie - </p>
<p>As for my "countless minutes putting down another's job", you truly missed the point. As a resident of California, and therefore taxpayer of California, I am, in a sense, a stockholder or partial owner of the company who pays the salary of the CSU staff. I therefore have a right to express my opinion (or displeasure) when someone seeks to spend my money (and the money of countless other taxpayers) in a manner that we may not agree with. </p>
<p>If the employees of a private corporation were using threats (strike vote) to get an across the board 25% raise for every employee, regardless of, and in spite of, the employee's job performance, you bet the stockholders have a right to voice their opinion, and rightfully so. In a smaller company, the owner (who is ultimately responsible for the bottomline) has every right to question any additional expenditures. </p>
<p>Up until the post that you chose to criticize, I had not, in any of my posts, complained about my job or my working conditions. Yet, I have read in this thread numerous complaints from teachers (or their spouses) about how horrible life is for teachers. Several commented about the extra hours required due to having to take papers home to grade. I chose to break new ground, and share with them what some other people go through, in terms of having to spend time at home, doing work. I guess in your opinion, it is not acceptable for someone to use compartive analysis (in terms of having to do work at home). To do so, somehow makes me an evil selfish being? Are all teachers this open to contrary opinions? </p>
<p>As for your comment implying that I think teachers are "not worthy beings". Is it really necessary for you to mischaracterize my post? Does that make you feel better? For what it is worth, my mother was a teacher for many many years. One of our closest friends is a teacher, who i adore. I highly respect many of my son's and my daughter's teachers. After your acerbic comments, and your mischaracterization of my comments, I do not include you in my list of respected teachers.</p>
<p>"my mother was a teacher for many many years"</p>
<p>So it's a mommy issue? </p>
<p>You certainly have a right to express displeasure with your local situation. Except when you turn it into a national displeasure with a broad brush you invite criticism, because your leveling a broadside at undeserving people including your mom. </p>
<p>Rather if it is that upsetting locally, go make a change with the people who actually dictate the classroom, that is the school board, and your state legislators. All your doing here is beating the messenger. If you want the message changed go after those who composed it. </p>
<p>And remember your mom and jesus are watching, straighten up! quit slouching!</p>
<p>
[quote]
4 weeks of paid vacation?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>xiggi, I don't know where you live or what the public school system is like there but I do not receive A SINGLE DAY of paid vacation. My work year is contractually set at 190 days. I get paid for 190 days ONLY. </p>
<p>As I stated earlier, my paycheck for that 190 days is divided over 26 pay periods so I do in fact receive a check during the summer but that is not "paid vacation." My contractually obligated work day is 7.5 hours. On a daily basis I am at school working for a MINIMUM of 9 hours for which I receive no additional compensation. Tonight, yes on a Friday evening, I will spend 2-3 hours judging History Day projects for no pay.</p>
<p>Currently I have 135 students enrolled in my A.P. classes. Those students write a minimum of three essays per marking period. That is a minimum of 405 essays I grade on my own time, above and beyond the aforementioned 9 hours which is spent planning, working with kids after school for no additonal pay, etc. </p>
<p>This is not a "woe is me" statement of fact. I do these things willingly and without complaint. But please spare me your derisive observations of my cushy life.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, you are misinformed about elementary/high school teachers going on strike. In New York at least, there is a law that mandates that if teachers strike, they can fine teachers one day's pay for every day on strike, so not only are you losing salary, you have to pay back for the days you missed. Thus, not too many schools go on strike in NY.</p>
<p>And I make $1500 over the free lunch program amount with 15 years experience and a Masters degree. This is disgraceful. I realize that many people don't have benefits, but that is what happens when you destroy the unions and promote rights for corporations above people. </p>
<p>You sound like you just hate teachers - and I'm sorry, but I believe $36,471 is near the poverty line if you have kids.</p>
<p>"Of course, creating better schools for the STUDENTS is hardly on the radar screen at the maligned organization that suffer so much from the negative propaganda of horrible parents. It is good to remember that it was one of your unions leaders who stated that he'd start caring about the students the day they'll pay dues! And while we are at it, it should also be good to remember that schools do NOT belong to the unions, but to a society composed of PARENTS, STUDENTS, and TEACHERS."</p>
<p>You put words in my mouth - I never said anything about horrible parents, so your argument is invalid from that point. I said, Unions provide protection from a parent who is angry that his/her child did not pass or graduate. If that school has no union, or the parent has pull in the district, the grade can be changed to pass the student, or the teacher could be fired. Is that what you want, if you care about education, as you claim to? Because that is what happens in schools with no unions.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But please spare me your derisive observations of my cushy life.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Where did I make derisive observations about your "cushy" life?</p>
<p>
[quote]
You put words in my mouth - I never said anything about horrible parents, so your argument is invalid from that point.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I borrowed the term propaganda; horrible parents was sarcastic.</p>
<p>Posts 425, 426, and 428:
Yes. And although, as I've mentioned, I have problems with many aspects of teachers' unions, adigal's and wharfrat's perspectives are in fact accurate with regard to compensation. In no State, for no population, is teaching really a luxurious, "cushy," or glam job. </p>
<p>Not many people really stay in teaching for the long haul because it's just really comfortable and easy, let alone (as shown by the above & earlier posts) for any great salary. The career is chosen for the intellectual highs, the emotional highs, and for moral commitment. To some extent, it's a "calling," and not unlike a service position. But because teachers serve, does not mean they should not be well compensated. Nor does teacher generosity strip them of their right to expect a professional & dignified salary. </p>
<p>Informing others about the actual conditions & challenges of the job is not the same thing as complaining about those. It is an attempt to correct some of the urban mythology & the broad generalizations based on anecdotal stories of particular teachers behaving unprofessionally, being lazy, showing incompetence, and being in some cases truly unfit for the demands of the job & <em>without</em> an impulse to serve. The minority who are "punching a time clock" or doing the minimum will not do well in teaching, nor be happy.</p>
<p>Be extremely careful of drawing conclusions of broad incompetency across the profession, based on test score results. These results stem from complex causes. Setting aside the huge foreign language barriers in States with heavy (and multi-national) immigration -- the same States utterly lacking in any structured, publicly funded language immersion program -- AND setting aside households & communities unprepared or unwilling to support education (a MAJOR factor in test score results), there remains the fact that in the <em>public</em> classroom, teachers are not autonomous. That reality increases exponentially the more heavy-handed the State bureaucracy is in mandates, administrative regulations, and priorities detached from basic academics. I've explained this before, but it's especially a determining factor in a very large State (TX, CA, etc.). Diverse populations complicate the matter, because multi-ethnicity is an excuse for the State to increase its already over-regulatory attitude. The system first, the teaching second. Administrators first, teachers second. And in my State, popular politics first, academics second.</p>
<p>Be extremely careful also of "averaging" salaries across any large State. The variations are huge, even for 2 metro areas which seem similar. Special Ed teachers are paid differently from the regular classroom teacher, as are all the other (many) "specialty" teachers with various categories of credentials. High school is on a different scale than elementary. Site school salaries are way different than charter school salaries.</p>
<p>If the public is tired of the "results" they see, their focus should be on the (governmental) system, not the unions. Then let's see how the unions respond. If the leadership of the unions responds with alarm at demands for systemic change, going into their usual protect-the-system-at-all-costs mode, then truly the unions are not there to promote education and those teachers who wish to actually educate. (Sorry for the split infinitive.) I meet more teachers who support radical reform than teachers opposed to it. The opposition I hear is mostly from union <em>leadership.</em> However, those leaders are still hanging on to their positions, so apparently the "radical" teachers in my circle are not the majority. If they were, they would have voted their leaders out.</p>
<p>The point is, that the system does not allow teachers to <em>be</em> accountable in the way that people like Steve Jobs assume. I am accountable (by the principal and the district) for other things -- such as if my students "feel happy," are pyschologically stable, are functioning well socially, have a good self-image, agree with popular political positions, and are well fed -- but not for whether they can read with age-level fluency by the end of First Grade, nor if they have a high level of literacy by middle school. It is an Alice in Wonderland world, at least where I live -- with the test scores reflective of that Alice in Wonderland world. The proof of this is that students, parents, administrators react with surprise at my focus on education. I am not unwelcome, but they and I are living in parallel universes. I am considered paradoxically quaint and nouveau for not playing Mommy, psychiatrist, social worker, parole officer, and politician.</p>
<p>epiphany - great post.</p>
<p>Well said, epiphany.</p>
<p>thank you, both.</p>
<p>But, in our area - not an high cost of living region, btw - we have many, many teachers making $80,000 who show movies rather than teach, give multiple choice tests that can be graded by scantrons, and race the kids out of the parking lot at the end of the day. These teacher get a planning period and lunch period each day - thus they teach only 5 periods per day with a maximum of 24 in each class. They have 3 months off at summer, two weeks during the winter, a week in the fall and another week in the spring. </p>
<p>They retire at 80% of their top two years of salary with guaranteed health insurance! Who in the private sector has this type of guarantee and arrangement. </p>
<p>And, to add insult to injury, they can then return to work while drawing full retirement - with their years of service double counting. </p>
<p>Now, of course, there are also excellent teachers and I would gladly vote them additional funding. But as long as the union is in power - all teachers are compensated equally. Good and bad alike.</p>
<p>Well, gee, I guess wharfrat & Opie's wife & several of us others ought to move to your state, reflectivemom. I can't say, however, that you're living up to your screen name. This is just more trolling, i.m.o. What is "many, many"? Have you done personal surveys? Do you make it a habit to school-hop, checking out, tallying such examples? Are you a principal or supe? Are you a just a parent believing local gossip? Are you a stalker? Which one is it?</p>
<p>I know absolutely no standard classroom elem. teacher making 80K a year & with the prime, easy conditions you claim, and with no specialty resource position requiring extra certification, degrees, etc.</p>
<p>And a "lunch period" ! Imagine that! Lunch! And a professional planning period,too. Hmmph! (Why "plan" if all they're really doing is handing out scantrons, which the janitor could do?)</p>
<p>Madam, even factory workers and low-paid retail clerks get lunch periods.</p>
<p>At a charter school where I am frequently asked to teach, I am entitled to zero lunch period, btw. I work during lunch, & I eat standing up, if there's time to eat.</p>
<p>Teachers' salaries are public information in my state. </p>
<p>And, if you are truly a teacher and honest - you will admit to knowing both types - the ones that are terrific and the ones that are truly horrendous. </p>
<p>I am living up to my screen name 100% - and, if you won't admit such, you are absolutely living up to the "union philosophy". </p>
<p>I have known both - as I stated in my post. I have volunteered in the classrooms for 12 years. I am the "good" teacher's best friend. I have advocated for increased benefits and increased salaries for years and probably have been asked to write more letters of recommendation for awards and grants for teachers than you have. </p>
<p>But, unlike you and your fellow teachers and those with the union mentality, I am absolutely willing to call attention to those who should be fired! Perhaps if you and your cohorts would do the same, more would respect the profession.</p>
<p>reflex,</p>
<p>When you look at state schedules (and yes, every teacher can be identified by name and pay..so much for privacy) the thing neglected in these sites is years of service and/or the inclusion of extra activities. </p>
<p>Some teachers do make 80k a year with 25+ years experience, a masters and even a PHD. </p>
<p>Some others make 80k by working extra activities (coaching, clubs, summer schools, etc..) in other words a second job. </p>
<p>If spending weekends testing the hicap kids keeps my wife off the stripper pole... should you be upset she gets paid for it, or would you prefer she stripped for extra income? ;) </p>
<p>She could give a new twist to parent teacher conferences after school hours. I'm sure we could get more dad's to attend.... "Hi hon, how'd confrences go? Great, I made an extra $500 and I had every dad's attiention. They couldn't take their eyes off me. Jimmy's dad promises to make him spend an hour on reading every night. " Yea, some second jobs just are better than extra work for a school district...aren't they? :)</p>
<p>As far as terrific and bad, yes, I know a some each way. However, my opinon of a teacher just "might" be tainted by the grade he/she gave my kid. </p>
<p>I'm not surprised to run across parents of D students who complain how bad a certain teacher is, while at the same time the parents of the A students want to name their next child after him/her. So which parent is right? Some of the parents I know who complain about teachers are like listening to someone on their fourth divorce....it isn't always the other guys fault. </p>
<p>Now if you'll excuse me, I must prepare for my number, I need to adjust my boa, and I wish they'd heat the pole.....</p>
<p>A "bad" teacher with a PhD, or 50 years experience is still a "bad" teacher. If they are a "bad" teacher, they should be fired. </p>
<p>And, guess who usually has more information on the "bad" teachers than anyone else, including the parents? Yep, you know the answer - other teachers. But, they rarely, if ever, do anything about trying to get the toxic teachers removed. That union mentality. </p>
<p>I am not against teachers, I'm against the teachers' unions.</p>
<p>"A "bad" teacher with a PhD, or 50 years experience is still a "bad" teacher"</p>
<p>Can you find me one? I'm curious. </p>
<p>I have to be careful here, because I've hurt a feeling or two, but let me suggest you visit your state public instruction website and review the ongong requirements to teach in your state. Please focus on reviews, continuing education requirements, and the other hoops. I don't think your senario exists, but I am willing to listen. I think those who are in education can think of the rare situation where someone with that much experience and credentials is that much of a liability in the classroom. </p>
<p>But I am sure you are the first person to think or address performance issues. As far as removing toxic teachers I, like you are certain there are no methods in place for terminations. It's like working for the white house, you're untouchable.:)</p>