<p>Allmusic -- "it won't cover the whole tuition, by a long shot, but it would help"</p>
<p>It might help, but not for long. Private schools will quickly seize the opportunity to raise tution -- conveniently by an amount very similar to your voucher ;)</p>
<p>I agree katliamom, we found that while the private schools were very competitive, if they valued economic diversity, they already had scholarship programs in place.
I imagine that some parents may say- well we don't qualify for need based scholarships, but we aren't using public schools, so give us our money.
But we all do use public schools, if we participate in society at all.
Just as we "use" the roads, even if we don't drive, the fire dept, even if we haven't burnt down our house & the police dept- even if we always obey the law ;)</p>
<p>I'm being a bit sarcastic about vouchers actually, but I honestly can see the point, now, being on the other side.</p>
<p>I wouldn't support them, truthfully, on principle, because I do believe in public education. I do hope that someone can save public education, before it is too late. Not to be so dire, but I really think we are heading into the abyss, and it is totally deliberate, since there is an effort to privatize everything.</p>
<p>^^^---^^^</p>
<p>So much misinformation. Fwiw, well-funded private schools do not want vouchers. Check the amount of vouchers that are used in the US, and then ascertain how much of a threat they represent for ... public education.</p>
<p>"It might help, but not for long. Private schools will quickly seize the opportunity to raise tution -- conveniently by an amount very similar to your voucher "</p>
<p>All the while reserving the right to say "No thanks, we can't take your child."
For some reason, I've yet to see the federal requirement that they take anyone they don't want to. Of course all of our children are precious special wonders.... Someone wouldn't say no would they? Everyday would be icecream and cookies and we'd always get exactly what we want. Just like everyday..... ;) </p>
<p>It's the old if you can't pay for it now, you still won't be able to pay for it later, plus you'll have to transport or should every child have personal bus service to the school of their choice? logistics seem to always get tossed out the window as well. Of course my kid can go to school anywhere he/she wants, what time does the bus come?</p>
<p>Em, the main private up here has scholarships too and most of the kids that get them averaged 7 yards a carry. Even Bishop Blanchet used to pull in some kids who could not afford private school, but they sure could play football. </p>
<p>I am sure not every kid who gets help from a private school can carry a football, I'm sure some can rebound too. </p>
<p>(this is a slightly tounge in cheek, but actually true statement. I am sure prv sch offer more in help than just to atheletes, but this also raises an interesting situation, think chief sealth girsl bball)</p>
<p>I never said the threat to public education came from vouchers. </p>
<p>I said it came from absurd unfunded mandates and equally absurd state tests, which erode the curriculum. And yep, I think this is systematic and deliberate.</p>
<p>"For some reason, I've yet to see the federal requirement that they take anyone they don't want to."</p>
<p>Interesting! Do ALL the public schools have to do this?</p>
<p>"Do ALL the public schools have to do this?"</p>
<p>Pretty much they do from the handicaped and retarded to the criminal element. Public schools are called upon to take or provide an education for all students (at least in WA, hey TEXAS, you're on your own sport.) </p>
<p>Special ed, regular ed and even the most difficult behavorial disordered children are taught. Heck, even the kids expelled for anything, when they aren't incarcerated, have tutors at the school district's expense. Our district even offers a program for the homeschooled child to help them stay on track. We've also opened a tribal HS. So yes, pretty much. </p>
<p>In a review of several area privates, they aren't set up to handle this broad range of students and would probably fight tooth and nail not to be. Unless of course you average 7 yards a carry. :)</p>
<p>"Yes, we have to take your word that your contract calls for 190 days or work and no vacation time, but conveniently does not address the personal absence days, the sick days that can accumulated or cashed in upon retirement, and other allowed absences that can add to 20-35 days a year. Of course, that must have been deemed irrelevant and on a need to know basis!"</p>
<p>Easy big fella......</p>
<p>A school year contract is set up based on the state's mandated number of school days. The district and the union work together to create a schedule to accomodate this. There is no paid vacations and it is assumed that most take vacations or additional education classes during non contracted days. Sick days and PL days are pretty common in most workplaces. It is unusual to have a major employer (a school district may employ 1000+teachers) NOT provide sick leave, or personal days off. </p>
<p>You should not condem someone for having sick leave or personal days off, or you condem most of america's work force. People do get sick, people have children get sick, people have parents fall ill. People also have to go to the dentist and doctor. I don't know of too many MDs who stick around till 9 pm to see patients, do you? </p>
<p>Xigman, this where I think your sources mislead you. It's a faux outrage by some of these sites. Hell, when I bagged groceries, I had paid sick days, why shouldn't a teacher? Personal leave allows a teacher to take a day off to do things like watch my son graduate in a couple of months. My spouse gets two of those. Or do you feel she doesn't deserve to see this? </p>
<p>It is part of a compensation package that is negoiated bewteen district employers and unions. It allows for consistent and fair applications of benefits and saves time as usually it's done every three to five years. </p>
<p>This is one of those ripples in the pay em what their worth nonsense. I think for example Seattle has 15,000 teachers. How much are you willing to spend in time and manpower to negoicate individual contracts? How many years and how much staff are going to be needed to truly fairly evaluate? Which is more cost effective and time effective, three months negoish with the union reps setting up the next three years or individual by individual compensation agreements, because you certainly would want to give every teacher what they are worth.. wouldn't you. "can I schedule you in for 2009 thursday at 3?" ;)</p>
<p>Opie - are you familiar with Mercer Island schools? A friend of our son's went to school there. From what we heard, it is public, but seems to have the make-up of many private schools.</p>
<p>"Opie - are you familiar with Mercer Island schools? A friend of our son's went to school there. From what we heard, it is public, but seems to have the make-up of many private schools."</p>
<p>How to describe MI?? so someone from outside Wa would understand? Well, some of the richest people in WA live there and kids attend publics there. Think of one big gated community, except it's an island... They fund their schools, the tax base is very solid and they don't fail levies. Their publics are very good, because the MI community makes sure. My personal interaction with kids from MI is dated to when I was in HS. For the most part good kids, you'd never know they could crap gold. We have "other" private schools for that type of individual. I think the school district itself is pretty solid top to bottom and has been for years. I can't think of any bad characters to come from there. </p>
<p>Drawbacks include most teachers can't afford to live in the community and this is where the "be civil" (or somename) policy was created for parent interaction with teachers. </p>
<p>There was a period of time where a disgruntled mom or two did the ol "do you know WHO MY HUSBAND IS??? cause junior wasn't passing a class. This was often followed by "I can have my husband's TEAM of lawyers down here in 30 minutes.." (yes, I'm paraphrasing) The district created a policy for parents to follow regarding interaction with their children's teachers. As far as I know, it seems to be working. </p>
<p>There are public school districts around Seattle (sorry em) that fund or have funds and programs that privates would envy. Heck, I was shocked to hear Bellevue HS football coach is paid an additional $55,000 a year by boosters above what he makes in coaching stipend. I think they're state champs again.? This information came out this year and I think the state atheletics board made a rule about boosters and their compensation of coaches. But in the same area, I know youth soccer coaches making 30-50k coaching one team. Ya, the microsoft lifestyle isn't too bad for some.</p>
<p>The info in post 469 applies in my State as well. </p>
<p>The result of this, here, is that, with the exception of wealthy/relatively wealthy school districts, the public schools are the catch-all for the unwanteds. (And I don't just mean society's unwanteds, I mean parental unwanteds. More often than not, the home problems are not being addressed in the home, by the home. And the home problems are legion, & interfere major with the daily learning, intercepting learning for normal, healthy, happy kids eager to learn.)</p>
<p>Here are the 2 categories of kids getting cheated criminally by the public schools in my area:
(1) Kids who lack some major abnormality. (Much classroom time is spent on trying to manage abnormal psychology, with no resources for that & no license/credential for that.)
(2) Kids whose first language is English, but who live in a predominantly non-English speaking neighborhood.</p>
<p>A portion of the above is the result of the following warped State policies:
(1) underfunding of public mental health resources
(2) The "mainstreaming" movement, which forced teachers even without SpEd credentials or training to absorb seriously disabled students into the regular classroom. (It was more important for those students to "feel o.k." than to address their needs professionally while also giving proper attention to non-Special Ed kids. We must "not notice" that they're "different." Never mind that they <em>are</em> different.) But this is what PC does to education. Somehow it was felt that the only way to teach tolerance (definitely more important than the teaching of academics) is to force cohabitation & to make the teacher's time as unproductive & inefficient as possible. </p>
<p>....as well as the following warped tacit policy of districts, boards, State:
(1) No place else to put the dysfunctional; therefore, public schools are required to take them at whatever cost to the functioning children.</p>
<p>I agree with EmK regarding everybody having a stake ("using") public schools. It doesn't take me being a teacher to be outraged that my taxes are supporting informal (unlicensed) children's mental hospitals & juvenile criminal wards. So far, however, I don't notice a lot of taxpayers storming the State capitol about this. The action taken, if these taxpayers are parents, is to remove their children from publics a.s.a.p, by any means necessary & to go to whatever school they can get into.</p>
<p>If you can't afford a secular private (or can't get into one -- and you think College admissions is tough?), you bring your children to a parochial or a chartered homeschool, if you can afford one parent not working.</p>
<p>None of the above has anything to do with teacher <em>competency</em>. It actually has far more to do with administrative competency (& intelligence), on many levels of administration -- top to bottom. It also is somewhat related to public apathy (again, I don't see any hostages being taken, when the crisis practially calls for violence). It is only tangentially related to unions, because of passivity/lack of leadership & initiative over policy issues as opposed to money-and-turf issues.</p>
<p>And the situation with the language dominance/fluency can be blamed directly on state & federal governments. If you (the gov't) are going to accept massive immigration for whatever reason (or feel you "have no choice", but then not address the educational hurdles that this will present in the <em>public</em> schools, you are asking for a crisis. Again, teachers are required to teach to the best of their ability whomever shows up in their classrooms as registered at that school. If you look at test score results (Mr. Jobs) you will be able to break them out by district, and between publics & privates for those privates reporting. Hmmm. I wonder why the fluent students score dramatically better on all skills. Could it be that they understand the directions, the questions? And can answer in English?</p>
<p>Opie, I appreciate the time taken to answer my post directed at Wharfrat.</p>
<p>However, again I am not discussing why a school district does find itself obliged to grant up to 24 days of annual leave, 12 days of sick leave, and an additional couple of days of personal leave. The issue is one of "truth-in-advertising" as it came, on the heels of a cheap accusation of dishonesty hurled at me AND a statement such as "I don't get any vacation after working 190 days" that was quite misleading. Fwiw, I believe that you'll have a hard time finding many for-profit companies that allow their employees to accumulate absences of close to 20% of the expected work days, and accrue/bank them for future years.</p>
<p>What'd they say about people living in glass houses? </p>
<p>PS My question about ALL public schools having to accept everyone was (obviously) a leading one. There are plenty of evidence that this does not happen in ALL public schools. Schools that do not have the facilities or the space are not expected to have to offer the service. While you may receive it within a district, parents cannot force the school THEY want to accept their children. This said, I fully understand that public schools have a much wider mandate than any private school.</p>
<p>Where in the world is there a district that allows 24 days of annual leave a year? My feeling is that if I lived in a district that approved a teacher's contract like that I would immediately try to have a recall election of my school board. That is just fiscally irresponsible.</p>
<p>Epiphany describes the situation exactly as I see it, and is exactly the reason we pulled our daughter from public school. Aside from the screaming punitive teacher, she had to have a screaming autistic child in the room next door, who disrupted the learning of the children in her classroom every single day. But his needs were more important than those of the children in the mainstream, so he continued to scream (excused, due to his special needs) while the 22 children in my daughter's classroom had a quiet work environment compromised. I have dozens of such stories.</p>
<p>It is PC run amuck, and I am pretty PC, in the scheme of things.</p>
<p>xiggi, because of slim, no-frills and even bare-bones <em>classroom</em> budgets in my state (as opposed to generous allocations for administrative salaries, administrative studies, certain unnecessary specialists, etc., & much unnecessary testing), I no longer know teachers who work 180 or 190 days. </p>
<p>The following happens after classes themselves finish in early to mid June. (Usually mid-June for publics):</p>
<p>--administrative tasks for teachers, lasting anywhere from 1- 4 weeks,
depending on the style of school, size of the district, job description of the teacher.
--cleaning up of room, aiding in school cleanup as well (organization more than janitorial obviously). Yes, this sometimes coincides with the above tasks.
--Staff meeting or meetings plural. (Varies)
All of that can go into mid-July. That is esp. true of charter schools, and in my state charters are approaching the 50% level of all public schools, & rapidly gaining momentum every year.
--opportunity for Professional Development. Since PD of various kinds are mandated by state dept. of education, (minimum # of these sometimes per yr), acad. yr. time constraints sometimes move these workshops & conferences into the summer season, for practicality.</p>
<p>I no longer ever see teachers take most of August off. Most publics in my area require a return to school in early August, with actual instruction starting up by the end of August in some cases. Teacher August time is spent collaborating with other staff, planning the yr, setting up the room, doing more ordering, & planning year-long specialty projects in areas of the teacher's preference or expertise. Just because summer time is more casual time, less pressured time, usually not <em>full</em> work days, etc., does not mean that it's not work.</p>
<p>I am not denying that in many states, possibly, the previous 9 or 10 month formula may still flourish, but be careful of assuming all states, or even all districts or schools within a state, operate this way. In areas where that is still the pattern, and where the salary remunerates only for those months (I know of cases like that), teachers often feel it necessary to take summer jobs. (That can even be true for privates, and is esp. true if head of household, supporting dependents, etc.)</p>
<p>My sister is a medical professional and gets about 6 weeks vacation at county expense. I know an awful lot of people not in education who get between 4 and 8 weeks of paid vacation per year (some of these on public payrolls), as well as a few who get 12-week vacations on a company's dime. I used to work in a corporation. There was more absenteeism and less work being done in the corporation during the Dec/Jan break than for any teacher I've ever seen during the same time period. (Not "officially" off, it was neverthless a virtual vacation.)</p>
<p>Great post, -AllMusic- (476). Thank you for validating.</p>
<p>"My question about ALL public schools having to accept everyone was (obviously) a leading one. There are plenty of evidence that this does not happen in ALL public schools. Schools that do not have the facilities or the space are not expected to have to offer the service."</p>
<p>err... no? We used to send two young criminals up 60 miles each way with a sheriffs deputy to go to basically prison school for kids. The cost (1990's) back then was 100k per student. Later on the district developed what I call for a lack of a better term a weasle taming class where there is one teacher and a full time aide for each kid. These kids cannot be trusted around other children because of the potential to harm either themselves or others. Rather than ship them out at great expense it was cheaper to form a class and provide individual aides for that class. So it does happen. As I said in Texas, babe your on your own... There shouldn't be any question that texas provides the best possible education for all texans, I mean this is where the NCLB movement started... you mean to tell me they don't do it bigger and better in Texas? Why is the country expected to copy their plan then? Heck I still want WA kids to take the Texas exams. God all our kids would be brillant then. ;) </p>
<p>" While you may receive it within a district, parents cannot force the school THEY want to accept their children. This said, I fully understand that public schools have a much wider mandate than any private school"</p>
<p>It's called a lawsuit, xigmester.. alot can happen. You'd be surprized. </p>
<p>"I believe that you'll have a hard time finding many for-profit companies that allow their employees to accumulate absences of close to 20% of the expected work days, and accrue/bank them for future years."</p>
<p>Again, you'd be surprized. And are you combining paid leave days with unpaid leave days? And lest you forget FMLA? Allowed absences w/o pay could simply be a way to offer job security if for some reason an employee has to take a temporary absence. In other words maybe those leave days say that if gone for 24 days you can return to your job, beyond that we have the right to move you elsewhere (school or grade level) I'm really not sure how that applies as I don't live near wharft, but next time I get a second I'll look and see if it's the same here. </p>
<p>One thing to think of when you have employees or manage others, do you want them to hate their jobs, or you, or fear you? </p>
<p>What's YOUR goal? What do you want to accomplish? Years ago, I interviewed for a management position in a large insurance company. I would have had 60 people working under me. The thing is every couple of minutes the conversation always turned back to firing people. Can I fire people? yes, I have. I finally stopped the interview and asked is there anything to this position besides the ability to fire people? I ended the interview. Who knows? Maybe I coulda been the next jack welch. What's your goal? What do you want?</p>
<p>Wow! What a great set-up your teachers have!! Where do you live? I want to apply so that I can make 80K a year, while racing the kids out of the parking lot and have no other responsibilities, THREE months off in the summer (hmmmm....let's see, I get off around June 25, and am back on Sept 1st some years, that is two months and one week, not three months, which does sound better for propaganda purposes than two months and one week. :)</p>