Steve Jobs Blames Education Problems on Teacher Unions

<p>You are just plain a nonreflectivemom and rude.</p>

<p>I'm not "truly" a teacher? I'm not "honest"? My "cohorts" are union members? Hardly. But then, I shouldn't have expected you to read and <em>reflect</em> on the many posts included here, let alone on other threads. </p>

<p>I have never supported nor shielded from firing, incompetents. But you are way too ignorant to infer that from my many statements on college confidential. I have merely stated that the public rarely knows or see the grossly underpaid & highly professional teachers -- some happen to be members of unions & have posted on CC; others not members of unions because they choose not to be members of unions, or these choose teaching jobs that are not covered by unions BECAUSE THEY LOVE THE PROFESSION, and will sacrifice such privileges to serve the underserved, knowing what a difference an educated public makes in the functioning of a democracy.</p>

<p>There are clear guidelines for removing incompetent tenured teachers in the system in which I teach none of which require the teacher to be an axe murderer or pedophile.</p>

<p>It simply requires that administrators document the poor performance, put the teacher on an action plan for one year, and document that the teacher has not improved or has not attempted to implement the action plan.</p>

<p>It is not that difficult, however if administrators are unwilling to do so how is that the fault of the union? Our union cannot do anything to protect a teacher if the administrator dots all their i's and crosses all their t's. It's just that simple.</p>

<p>One of the things I would love, but apparently wont find easily, is accountability.
When I had to quit my job, in an attempt to get my daughter her legally required rights regarding her IEP, and even that was not enough, as the teachers didn't know the law, or were able to follow it.
( for example her IEP stated she was to receive one hour per day of resource time. However, since she couldn't tell time, she didn't go to resource and neither her classroom teacher or her resource teacher informed me there was a problem. Since I was in the building working on parent group functions, I could have gotten her myself and taken her to the classroom if I had been notified. THis went on for weeks and is just one example)</p>

<p>When she was in 5th grade- her classroom teacher took a series of personal leaves that lasted for several years. Parents were not notified that their kids were being taught by substitutes until almost Xmas. Again I was in the building, but I was working in other parts of the school, like many parents I found I could be more effective if I helped in classrooms besides my own childrens, as that made them too self concious.</p>

<p>The principal apparently didn't know how to tell the parents, so she didnt tell them anything, but there should have been some accountability and follow through at the district level. People apparently knew this teacher wasn't in the classroom, so why wasn't more support given to the series of substitutes?
( she was just taking sick leave- not a "leave" so no one could be hired for the position)</p>

<p>I have talked to teachers, who this made angry, especially when this "situation" stretched out over a period of years, but it was very unpopular to express anything but support for the teacher who was going through a "tough time" and the needs of the 10 year olds to have a consistent teacher were downplayed</p>

<p>These are just a couple of the examples that we experienced in public school, and in a school that had good parental support, who raised money for programs and teachers, and prided itself on its family environment.</p>

<p>However, we have also had equally positive experiences in public school.
One teacher for example, in my daughters high school, comes early and stays late, he helps clean up after the PTA auction, he makes himself available by phone for help with classwork and he advocates for kids at school district board meetings.
There are some shining examples of teachers. :D</p>

<p>BUt when your child, has one or two or godforbid three years of teachers who set the bar in their classroom very low, "so everyone can achieve", who allow students to draw a picture instead of writing a paper or who only pop in enough to keep their contract viable, its pretty frustrating to hear others blame lack of acheivement on children and parents.</p>

<p>To not have anyone say " Im sorry- that really sucks- that teacher/principal/administrator wasn't doing their job"
To not have anyone ask" what can we do to help?"
To have the only option to transfer to another school, homeschool or go private.
I also had a teacher give me the name of an attorney, on the * QT* , but since the district has lots of legal staff, having found it more profitable to not dispense services, but wait until the few families so motivated take them to court, I was discouraged from pursuing that route, even if I had had the money.</p>

<p>I didn't run into any elementary school teachers that had a Phd.
I thought her teacher in 3rd grade, who was a master teacher, was very good at the time, but she said he was "mean".
We did run into some very good teachers, often with a lot of experience.
Unfortunately at her school, I wasn't part of the group of parents who got the teachers they requested.</p>

<p>However, there was also those who prided themselves on teaching exactly the same way that they did "20 years ago" * No- duh*
When she made that comment all of us at the table- teachers and parents looked at each other- and thought* well that explains it!*nothing like teaching the same year over and over again for 20 years-</p>

<p>Some of the best teachers- have been teachers who are on their 2nd career. Software engineers, biologists, even diplomats. We could have a lot more, if we didn't make them jump through the hoops of learning the jargon and the latest fad in teaching, which sends very promising teachers to the private schools, who don't require an education degree.</p>

<p>I think your responses to my posts give us all the evidence we need of why most of dislike the teachers' unions. </p>

<p>In my posts I praised the good teachers, condemned the bad. Gave examples of all I've done to help teachers. But, instead of "thanking me for my support" - no thanks needed, btw, I was glad to do so - you would rather stand up for one of the toxic examples. It's this "us against them" menality and "all for one and one for all" that generates such hostility against unions.</p>

<p>I dare say we all have seen good and bad in our choice of professions. However, rarely have I seen other professionals prefer to gossip about the inept rather than report them and work to see them removed from the classroom.</p>

<p>"regarding her IEP, and even that was not enough, as the teachers didn't know the law, or were able to follow it."</p>

<p>then of course there are situations where following the IEP dictated procedures slows everything down. Some teachers see the problem right off the bat, want to seek help immediately but the way the system works, it might be a couple of months before things get rolling, because they have to follow the rules. </p>

<p>It's funny as you mention this, my spouse was po'd that she'd have to wait a couple months to get help for a kid who really needed it. For another, ESL kid didn't qualify yet because he was esl. So he may get help next year. Evidently, there's a heck of procedure to follow. </p>

<p>Sometimes we blame the people least responsible, sometimes we don't.</p>

<p>my B<em>I</em>T<em>C</em>H* really does have a larger point.
While I realize that some districts/schools/parents expect and demand teachers to be jack of all trades and go way beyond- I personally didn't witness that.</p>

<p>But I did notice- that at my Ds school where she spent 6 years- which had a higher free/reduced lunch rate than the district, where we had a rotating door in the principal office and has been on the district chopping block for off and on for over 20 years, it was much more common to not have communication between the teacher and parents, even between the principal and PTA board.
( many meetings that we scheduled according to the principals calendar that she didnt show for- she wasn't in the building at all)</p>

<p>On the other hand, at Ds school that attracts students away from private schools, where parents don't need to hire attorneys, they * are* attorneys, the teachers respond promptly to phone calls and emails, even the principal responds often within the same day,and even for kids who need tutoring after school, there is that resource at the school, instead of at the previous school, where we had to pay $60 an hour for tutoring on the outside ( since she wasn't getting her resource time- still cheaper than hiring an attorney though)</p>

<p>From parents I have spoken to, especially low income and especially minority parents, they feel that their input is not wanted or expected. This makes them less likely to be involved in their kids school.</p>

<p>Im not disputing that at some high needs schools there may be some great teachers. But when schools with a lot of high needs kids, have mostly young, inexperienced teachers, and the district plays rotating principals who aren't skilled enough to help provide the support those teachers need, no wonder that those schools and those students are struggling.
We need incentives to get experienced teachers in these schools, and compensate them for their extra workload.</p>

<p>But a teacher who just goes through the motions for 20 years is compensated at a higher level than a teacher who gives 110% but only has 10 years experience.</p>

<p>I understand the reason for unions- but that is just frustrating.</p>

<p>my spouse was po'd that she'd have to wait a couple months to get help for a kid who really needed it</p>

<p>But currently- Ds school would rather just give the kids the help, rather than have them go through an IEP.
FOr example- when D was at other school- I removed her from her IEP, because while in middle school, it was a regularly scheduled class, so that she didn't have to watch the clock, it wasn't following her IEP.
She needed help in math, but the other students needed help in diagramming sentences, so she just used it for a study hall.
So she doesn't have an IEP anymore-as her school offers services for kids who need it- or at least more so than other schools.</p>

<p>I don't think they are required to wait 60 days before evaluation and support-
it is true that they have 25 ( school)days after a referral to decide whether it is warranted,and then 35 days to actually evaluate- but especially since it is almost the end of the year, I wouldn't want to wait that long either.</p>

<p><a href="https://www.ldonline.org/article/6027%5B/url%5D"&gt;https://www.ldonline.org/article/6027&lt;/a>
This is a pretty good website, that has articles on incorporating different learning and teaching styles into the curriculum, that can be used even if none of the kids have IEPs</p>

<p>Kudos to your wife BTW Opie for recognizing that a student needs help-
I know it may seem a no brainer to you teachers who are dedicated to your profession, but just like any profession, there are those who aren't interested in doing the best job they can.</p>

<p>It isn't that us laypeople dont respect teachers- but if you have a crappy dentist, you can change, and if your roof leaks you can make the roofers ins pay for a new one, but a teacher makes lifelong impressions for good or bad, that aren't so easily taken care of.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There are clear guidelines for removing incompetent tenured teachers in the system in which I teach none of which require the teacher to be an axe murderer or pedophile. It's just that simple.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, as simple as New York can follow this chart:</p>

<p><a href="http://cgood.org/assets/attachments/firing_chart.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://cgood.org/assets/attachments/firing_chart.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>and then there is the "rubber room"</p>

<p>One New York teacher decided that one of his 16-year-old students was hot. So he sat down at a computer and sent a sexual e-mail to Cutee101.</p>

<p>"He admits this," said Klein. "We had the email."</p>

<p>"You can't fire him?"</p>

<p>"It's almost impossible."</p>

<p>It's almost impossible because of the rules in the New York schools' 200-page contract with their teachers. There are so many rules that principals rarely even try to jump through all the hoops to fire a bad teacher. It took six years of expensive litigation before the teacher who wrote Cutee101 was fired. During those six years, he received more than $300,000 in salary</p>

<p>Hundreds of teachers the city calls incompetent, racist, or dangerous have been paid millions. And what do they do while they get paid? They sit in rubber rooms. They're not really made of rubber, of course. They are big, empty rooms where they store the teachers they are afraid to let near the kids. The teachers go there and sit, hang around, read magazines, and waste time. The city pays $20 million a year to house teachers in rubber rooms.</p>

<p>Or as simple as googling a few words</p>

<p><a href="http://media.hoover.org/documents/0817928723_176.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://media.hoover.org/documents/0817928723_176.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>School districts across New York spend on average nearly $200,000
and 476 days on each teacher dismissal hearing?more, in some
cases, than it takes to convict someone of a crime in the courts, according
to a 1994 survey by the New York State</p>

<p><a href="http://www.heartland.org/publicPDF/WECAN5.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.heartland.org/publicPDF/WECAN5.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Due in part to the difficulties of removing bad teachers, "at least four states -- Massachusetts, Oklahoma, Colorado, and New Mexico -- have enacted laws eliminating tenure...New Jersey, New York, and Florida are seeking ways to replace tenure with renewable contracts for teachers," writes Hancock.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.educationpolicy.org/newsletter/EEJan98.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.educationpolicy.org/newsletter/EEJan98.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Indeed, it's just that simple!</p>

<p>Good for you xiggi, you manage to find your documentation within publications of think tanks with conservative bias. At least be honest and open about your sources. For example the Hoover institution is closely aligned with the neocons and has many close ties within the Bush administration. </p>

<p>Of course, the Bush administration's pro-voucher, anti-public education bias is well documented. </p>

<p>Here is Wikipedia's discussion of the Heartland Institute</p>

<p>
[quote]
In addition to research, the Heartland Institute features an Internet application called PolicyBot which serves as a clearinghouse for conservative research from other think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation, American Legislative Exchange Council, and Cato Institute. The Institute's president is Joseph L. Bast.</p>

<p>The Heartland Institute's publications include School Reform News, Budget and Tax News, Environment News, Health Care News, Lawsuit Abuse Fortnightly, and Info Tech and Telecom News. These are primarily aimed at state legislators. School Reform News, Budget and Tax News, Environment News and Health Care News are arranged in newspaper format and include articles by experts drawn mostly from other free-market think tanks.</p>

<p>[edit] Global warming
The Institute is a member organization of the Cooler Heads Coalition which asserts that global warming is a myth. The Board of Directors for the Heartland Institute includes Walter F. Buchholtz, a lobbyist for Exxon Mobil and Thomas Walton, an executive of General Motors Corporation.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In addition, the tobacco industry is one of its' largest contributors of funding. <a href="http://www.sourcewatch.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.sourcewatch.org&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>And this from Heartland's mission statement:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Heartland's mission is to discover and promote free-market solutions to social and economic problems. Such solutions include parental choice in education, choice and personal responsibility in health care, market-based approaches to environmental protection, privatization of public services, and deregulation in areas where property rights and markets do a better job than government bureaucracies.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Why not be up front about the clear and undeniable bias of your sources?</p>

<p>I think the Bush administration is doing a bangup job of dismantling public education. My complaints with the mandates, state testing, reduced federal funding, funneling of money towards religious schools, etcetcetcetc is effectively tearing the nation's public school systems to bits. And I live in a community with "good schools", but I am shocked by the beurocratic nonsense, the government requirements, etc. that have systematically ruined public education.</p>

<p>I do not in any way fault the unions for these issues. This is straight government policy.</p>

<p>Allmusic, you must be lucky if your public schools have been good up until now. My local district is terrible and has been for years, long before this administration took over. High administrative costs are bankrupting them, but they can't teach the basics of reading, writing, and math skills. That is the unions fault, not the government. The government doesn't reach down into classroom policies, the school board, the teachers, the administrators do. It's easy to blame politicians that you don't like instead of looking at the real cause. Teachers are not trained to teach the basics. By fourth grade it all starts unraveling. By high school, students haven't learned simple organizational, time management skills, and colleges have to waste time teaching them. Yet, bad teachers can't be fired, they just move them around where they can do the least damage. The best teachers become worn out. In high school, everyone clamors to get the better teachers, and hope they aren't stuck with the worst. The only way to be guaranteed a teacher who will prepare them for college is to take honors or AP classes.</p>

<p>Xiggi, in your post #422 you make good points, however teachers should get some compensation for the number of new preparations they are required to do outside of their classroom time. New teachers, those who change or add subjects, require prep time. A teacher who has taught the same thing for 20 years isn't putting as much time in. I don't know how to gauge that.</p>

<p>em, you have my sympathies for having to live in the seattle school district. It's really far too big to be effective in the education process. It really should be broken down into 3 or 4 districts with separate school boards and leadership as they have far too many subcommunities to serve. I went to seattle public schools for a while near green lake. I even have the dubious honor of having green lake dragged for my body, man did I get a whuppin for that one. </p>

<p>I honestly don't know if Seattle's ever talked about breaking the beast down. They could probably do a better job, maybe it would cost more, but it does seem like they are blowing money away. I think the district lost direction ever since J. Sanford died. I don't think the board wants as strong a personality in charge there. It's starts at the top and unfortunately trickles down to the kids. </p>

<p>I might have been off on the time for IEP's I usually take a walk with my spouse and talk about her day and the kids (ours and her students). Some of it is finding time with the specialist to go over the case. I think the parent is involved as well and sometimes with move ins, the records aren't there.</p>

<p>"The government doesn't reach down into classroom policies,"</p>

<p>HONESTLY, YOU'RE JOKING HERE NO?</p>

<p>"It's easy to blame politicians that you don't like instead of looking at the real cause. "</p>

<p>Actually, I blame the ones I like too. I gotta admit I've never seen a post like yours before. Where did you come to the conculsion that the state and federal government aren't involved in education? I mean I agree if you are referring to funding? But are you saying they aren't the ones establishing policy and education requirements, whether they make sense or not? Is that what you're saying?</p>

<p>Emeraldkity4 - i agree with your point about dentists, roofers, and teachers. </p>

<p>I believe that the vast majority of teachers are knowledgeable, dedicated, and worthy to be in the teaching profession. But what about those few bad apples? </p>

<p>True, there are bad apples in all professions. But the impact of bad apples in most professions is easily forgotten. A bad apple in other professions is not so easily or quickly forgotten. (Teaching, medicine, and others). </p>

<p>As frustrating as it can be, a rude teller or incompetent cashier can easily be forgotten (though the vast majority of them are good, and are troopers for working in the trenches). With a bad cook, you can send the meal back. With a bad contractor, there is normally some type of contractual recourse (refund, re-do the work, etc.). </p>

<p>Bad apples, and mistakes in other professions, linger a bit longer. Incorrect/inaccurate information from a sales person can lead to the purchase of the wrong product. In in many circumstances, there is no return or exchange options, so you are stuck with a product that you otherwise would not have purchased. </p>

<p>In both of the first two categories, a consumer can avoid the bad apple, after one single incident, by not returing to the busines, or by avoiding that particular person. </p>

<p>A bad apple in the medical profession is probably the worst. Their miscalculation or error can result in death, in a worse case scenario. However, with doctors, (though i hate our over-litigious society) they can be sued, or fired for malpractice.</p>

<p>With teachers (coaches, ministers, and certain other professions), as Emerald put it they "make lifelong impressions for good or bad". </p>

<p>On the positive side, I still remember my 5th grade teacher, Mr. Duncan. One of the things he taught us was Greek roots, and how to put together different words using alternate prefixes and suffixes. It was fascinating, and has stayed with me to my current old age. </p>

<p>However, negative impressions also last a long time. Many of you probably remember some nasty/mean person from your childhood. It may have been a neighbor, a relative, a teacher, a coach, etc. For me, it was a neighbor, Mr. Alexander, who lived across the street, and down a couple of houses. He yelled at kids. Any kids, all kids. Used to scare the crap out of us. The good news, we could avoid him. We could walk on the other side of the street, or wait till he went inside. </p>

<p>What about our children? I would venture to guess that most of you parents are like my wife and I, and you have a zero tolerance level for anyone yelling at your kids (for any reason). </p>

<p>I posted this earlier in this thread: In our local elementary school, there is a tenured teacher (teaching 3rd and 4th grades) who should no longer be teaching. Maybe, she should have never been a teacher. If she ever was good, she lost it many years ago. She is well known for her frequent tirades. She yells at her students on a regular basis. She verbally abuses them. She ridicules and shames them. My son and daughter were lucky enough to avoid her class. My niece was not so lucky. My sister-in-law gave things a few weeks, and then, after hearing of several abusive days, went into the principal's office, and requested her daughter (my niece) to be moved to another class. Her request was granted. </p>

<p>My wife and I have always volunteered at the school (during the years that our kids were in attendance). My wife helped in the office, and in the class. I drove on field trips (took vacation days, to be there for our kids). On more than one occasion, I overheard her yelling at her class. You could her yelling from 3 classes away, out in the walkway. (I have to concede that on one of the occasions, it was so bad that i was tempted to go in and slap her. How dare she yell at 3rd and 4th graders. However, I would have ended up in jail, so I turned away and walked the other way. And she is allowed to continue teaching?? Great system.</p>

<p>You know that the worst part of it is? To think of those poor children, who spent hours in her class each day. And then imagine it went on for the entire school year. You can't tell me that some of those kids won't have emotional scars that they will linger with them for years. </p>

<p>Yes, it was probably a very isolated situation. She is definitely the worst teacher at the school. There are a couple of other teachers who had misspellings in all their letters and notices that went home to the parents, but when compared to this woman, they were saints. And, the vast majority of teachers at the school were very good to excellent. </p>

<p>Think of the students who suffered verbal and emotional abuse from her, all year long. And she has been at this school since before my son was in 1st grade. He is now a freshman in college. How many children has she abused over those many years. </p>

<p>And yet, she can't be fired. Many parents have gone to the principal. (Three different principals have come and gone at the school). Yet, she remains. Someone please explain it to me.</p>

<p>Lest you think i am making up the story, her name is Ms. Iuna. (I misspelled her name so as to prevent myself from being sued.). Any reader living in the area, will quickly recognize the similarity, and will know who I am referring to.</p>

<p>The government absolutely DOES reach into classrooms. Are you kidding?</p>

<p>Before special ed mandates and state tests due to the idiotic NCLB, we actually had wonderful schools. Now, we spend a disgraceful amount of money educating uneducable kids in day or residential placements (due to mandates, thank you) and the rest of our regular ed kids get overcrowded classes. Or, the teachers are dealing with mainstreamed special ed kids whose needs are too profound for regular teachers. And everyone suffers.</p>

<p>Then the state tests...the bane of my existence. Hours and hours, days...weeks..spent "preparing", the creative curriculum gone, in favor of what the state has determined is important. Then another two weeks of instructional time lost in taking these nonsensical tests.</p>

<p>These mandates aren't passed by my school board. This is the federal government's interference in local schools. And I am mad as heck at the changes,w hich have done nothing but ruin public edcuation.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Good for you xiggi, you manage to find your documentation within publications of think tanks with conservative bias. At least be honest and open about your sources. For example the Hoover institution is closely aligned with the neocons and has many close ties within the Bush administration. Of course, the Bush administration's pro-voucher, anti-public education bias is well documented.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Indeed, Mister Teacher, good for me and .. shame on you! Be honest about my sources? You must be joking, right. At least, I do provide DIRECT quotations of my sources of information. Something quite different from someone who has so far hidden behind evasive and misleading posts purported to be informative and factual. Yes, we have to take your word that your contract calls for 190 days or work and no vacation time, but conveniently does not address the personal absence days, the sick days that can accumulated or cashed in upon retirement, and other allowed absences that can add to 20-35 days a year. Of course, that must have been deemed irrelevant and on a need to know basis! </p>

<p>And now, you have the impudence and effrontery to accuse me of being dishonest! </p>

<p>Further, for the record, I make absolutely no apologies for finding my information in the think tanks you seem to question; I also read the manifests of the NEA and AFT! And for the record, I won't apologize for spending my time and energy researching the reasons why people like you are so adamantly opposed to anything that will endanger the sanctity of YOUR version of what public education should be, and seemingly claim a feudal right of absolute control, if not outright ownership. There are indeed think tanks that take extreme views and have declared war on the similarly extreme views of the unions. However, one has to be smart enough to separate the "terrorists" from the "honest" researchers who pursue sound and logical solutions. In the meantime, with your indulgence, I'd rather read the works of Friedman, Hoxby, or Greene as opposed to Marx' or Lenin's. </p>

<p>In this vein, allow me to ask you what do YOU know about school choice or vouchers, except for the union bosses party line? How much time have you devoted on analyzing their benefits and deficiencies? How much do you know about the countries where school choice and freedom of education is protected by their own constitution, with the results of having schools that perform at a level that would make your own school drool of envy, and at a fraction of the price. You know, the type of european school that was portrayed in John Stossel's Stupid In America. Oops, another unworthy source, if I ever saw one! The demonic libertarian who dared to show the rubber room on national television.</p>

<p>But, we do not need to go that far ... what do you know about the anti-voucher and anti-school choice movement in Arizona. Can you pretend with a straight face that the opponents have the best interest of children at heart, especially handicapped and discriminated children? </p>

<p>Feel free to continue to wrap yourself in your blanket of indignation. You may, however, pick a thicker-woven one that does a better job at masking your lack of probity. </p>

<p>PS And as far as the funneling of funding to religious schools, it may be worth to remember the DOCUMENTED effectiveness of catholic schools that operate quite differently from public school. Here's an example of a school that, according to some, seems to contribute to the dismantling of public education.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.sanmiguelhigh.az.campusgrid.net/home%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.sanmiguelhigh.az.campusgrid.net/home&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I never thought I'd see the day when I would support vouchers. But experience is a great teacher. I want my voucher money. Hand it over, Mr. Bush, to pay the hefty tuiition we are now responsible for (no Christian school for us) since I have had it with the public schools. I'll take that money...it won't cover the whole tuition, by a long shot, but it would help.</p>

<p>PS Lovetocamp, my daughter had the punitive screamer in third grade, and it ruined her morale for a whole year. Then she had a neglectful teacher who never taught the kids a thing, but had them read and answer questions for six hours a day. We are still recovering from these horrible teachers.</p>