Stop playing the race card

Chance Me / Match Me!
81

<p>"If supporters of racial preferences would just admit that they want more Blacks and fewer Asians at universities, then I'd applaud them for their honesty."
exactly; why don't the people just admit they have racial preference?</p>

<p>Besides, Asians faced a lot of discrimination too. It's just that the asians are capable of OVERCOMING their difficulties, and they get penalty for overcoming their difficulties. Besides, it's just their culture that they value education much more than any other culture; just because someone OVERCAME their discrimination doesn't mean it doesn't exist...</p>

<p>bottom line is, why don't we just look closely at social-economic background to tell? what does race have to do with ANYTHING? If they're disadvantaged they're disadvantaged, it has nothing to do with their skin color. You said you do look at it carefully, then why still leave the ethnicity box? Isn't that redundant?
Why can't people just admit it rather than trying to justify with very unconvinving statements?</p>

<p>I don't know if anyone on this board read such research...but for places that banned AA, asian population went up dramatically. How'd you explain that?</p>

82

<p>because its not just economic status that determines ones life...as adofficer said, a hispanic from middle-upper class may have a very different viewpoint than a caucasian that goes to the same school...it is the fact that colleges want diversity and viewpoints from all spectrums of education...</p>

<p>regradless of all this argument...as adofficer said, AA is only a tiny factor that would probably account for very little change had it not existed...you guys have the perception that without AA many more Asians/Whites would be accepted to top colleges however as adofficer has pointed out this is not the case</p>

83

<p>I never said that, in fact I also mentioned it's just a factor like SAT scores/GPA...etc.
I'm only against the arguments that don't make sense on this board.
As an international student, AA doesn't affect me since there's quotas for international students anyway. (but I'm also asian :D)
But i have to say that asians faced similar diffitulties....just that they were able to overcome it. This doesn't change.</p>

<p>Again, I never said anyone will get in BECAUSE of his/her race. I only said race is a factor, just like everything else ie. teacher's rec, transcript, personal essay...etc</p>

84

<p>"AA is only a tiny factor that would probably account for very little change had it not existed" "you guys have the perception that without AA many more Asians/Whites would be accepted to top colleges however as adofficer has pointed out this is not the case"</p>

<p>back yourself up with facts, becoz I got facts to back me up that it changes a lot
Here they are, two things:</p>

<p>1) look at UC berkeley (for that matter, all UCs) and what happened after AA banned, then u know it REALLY IS A WHOOPING TINY FACTOR WOW, as i said, why do you think the asian population at UC Berkeley almost tripled when they banned AA? Coincidence? I think not. and you are telling me that race is such a SMALL factor it ONLY changed about 30% of the acceptance pool when AA was banned.. COOL</p>

<p>2) Why do you think texas needs the top 10% rule after AA banned, becoz they know its going to shift the balance in the macroscale.</p>

<p>"a hispanic from middle-upper class may have a very different viewpoint than a caucasian that goes to the same school"
same thing for asian americans. Find me asian AA please :p</p>

<p>"it is the fact that colleges want diversity and viewpoints from all spectrums of education..."
Exactly. It's for the colleges' own benefit so they acheive visual diversity and make themselves look better, and put pictures of people of all colors on their admissions viewbooks. Please dont throw those bullcrap noble causes at me like balancing the playing field and to balance the discrimination that minorities have to face in their lives... the fact that asian americans dont get the extra consideration(and sometimes held at a slightly higher standard) even tho we go through the same discrimination shows that yall are just hypocrites pretending to save the disadvantaged.</p>

85

<p>bearcats...my information is being derived straight out of adofficers statements..lets not forget that adofficer has worked at top universities and probably knows what hes talking about</p>

86

<p>those are not facts, those are personal opinions, while the case of UC Berkeley and texas are both FACTS..FACTS that everyone can see.</p>

87

<p>I want to know how many URMs applied to Berkley before AA and how many do now because that would certainly be enlightening. Oh and I'm tired of people talking about Asians facing comparable differences to African-Americans. They didn't lose their culture and entire families were not ripped apart. They were not hit as hard as the American ghettoes were during the crack eras of the 80s (which Reagan ignored BTW). There was obvious bigotry towards Asian-Americans, but Asians were used to build railroads and things of that natureand even blocked from entry. Still, with their family structure and history most of them are able to persevere....notice children of African and Caribbean parents (native born parents) also do better than the average URM.</p>

<p>I'm also offended by those implying that Asians are some how naturally stronger and able to overcome racial bias. One of the biggest Asian stereotypes is that they are all incredibly smart. You all seem to forget that AAs found ways to progress and achieve education even amongst bigotry. Black Wallstreet anyone? Don't mistake the current culture as being some natural trait....people are conditioned.</p>

88

<p>AdOfficer: I have a question about one factor that might point to one's advantages & support levels at home. What about number of children in the household? I'm curious if this is factored into the equation, as this can have an enormous impact on resoures for a child. And not merely in terms of splitting a finite amount of income among siblings. I'm thinking of time. The only child families I know are free to invest focused, one-on-one uninterrupted attention on one child. Likewise, as a two child family, my kids get more individual attention (and are surrounded by less chaos) than my neighbors with five kids.</p>

<p>Haven't yet started the college application process, so I'm not sure if this data is captured or not. Is it? Would you agree that it could be important if you are truly attempting to level the palying field?</p>

89

<p>i love AdOfficer.</p>

<p>i'm too lazy to craft a well thought out argument right now, but having grown up in a place gripped with poverty, discrmination and horribly high drop-out rates, i agree w/ essentially everything he has said. most kids on CC would experience the biggest culture shock of their lives if they spent a few months here...and perhaps they'd finally be enlightened on the purpose of AA.</p>

90

<p>" There was obvious bigotry towards Asian-Americans, but Asians were used to build railroads and things of that natureand even blocked from entry"</p>

<p>wow..i m reporting u</p>

<p>"entire families were not ripped apart"
and if you want to throw history bullshyt, how bout the mass deporting of asian families (mainly japanese) during 2nd world war?</p>

91

<p>sorry bearcats i dont remember that involving 200 years of slavery..i may be off on my us history of course?</p>

92

<p>when was slavery ended? like 10 years ago? how bout hispanics?</p>

93

<p>Asian American students are recognized as minorities...they DO very much get considered under affirmative action policies at most highly selective schools. Filippino, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Hmong, Thai, Laotian, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, whateverese are considered minorities. However, there seems to be a pervasive thought amongst A LOT of self-identified Asian-American students on CC that they are being "discriminated against" because they have high gpas and high test scores and aren't getting into Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Brown, etc...,. NEWSFLASH - white students with high gpas and test scores aren't getting into these schools with high testing and gpas either. Latino and Hispanic students with high testing and gpas aren't getting into these schools. Black students with high testing and gpas aren't getting into these schools. However, there are many more Asian American students applying to these schools as a proportion of their race in the college-aged population than there are black and Hispanic students applying to these schools as a proportion of their races - that's why the admits rates are "higher" amongst these races. However, they are artificially inflated
because of the self-selectedness of the pool. </p>

<p>I have NEVER, nor would I EVER, contend that Asian Americans do not encounter prejudice or racism in this country. How dare you insinuate that bearcats. Do not put words in peoples' mouths and do not misconstrue statistics as evidence of anything as you have with your Berkeley example. There is A LOT of discontent in the state of California over what is going on at Berkeley and UCLA...and guess what? Most students at these schools ARE NOT happy with the homogeniety of these campuses. It is so sad that students are being shut out of these schools because the voters of California seem to think that their state is a meritocracy, when clearly the schools in Oakland, East Palo Alto, Compton, East LA, San Bernadino County, Riverside County, and other areas that are predominantly black and Latino are STARVING for decent teachers to teach talented kids. In Texas the same thing is going on. This conversation is so much deeper than just an SAT score which, in the first place, does not indicate anything BUT ACHIEVEMENT. It is a reflection of the educational opportunities one has had, not one's intelligence or potential to learn and contribute to a campus. </p>

<p>And, for the record bearcats, my institution is VERY MUCH using affirmative action for Asian American students, as are others.</p>

94

<p>suze - It is very capable URMs that are getting into top schools. There are scores of smart URMs graduating every year from the Country's top prep schools--Andover and Exeter to Harvard-Westlake and Brearly. There are a growing number of smart legacy URMs. Ivies reject over 75% of URM applicants. No one is just walking in for being black!</p>

<p>While there are many "capable" URMs - you need to put these "facts" into the proper context - the admit rates for non-URMs is significantly lower and the qualifications of the pool of URMs, overall, are lower than non-URMs.</p>

<p>IMO, the debate shouldn't be whether there should be AA, but whether AA, in its current form, is the best system.</p>

<p>Should URMs from non-disadvantaged backgrounds (upper-middle class, educated parents; good schools; access to tutors; etc.) should have an "advantage" regarding admissions solely on the basis of their race?</p>

<p>While I can certainly see the merit of admitting URMs with lower scores, etc. from disadvantages backgrounds (this, btw, includes whites and Asians from a low socio-economic background), I have questioned whether it's fair to do the same for URM applicants who have all the "advantages."</p>

<p>Preferably, I would like to see more URMs from disadvantaged backgrounds get priority over URM applicants from non-disadvantaged backgrounds (who have lower scores than the general applicant pool, but higher than that of URMs from disadvantaged backgrounds).</p>

<p>But in the interest of diversity, I have no issue with schools admitting URMs from non-disadvantaged backgrounds who happen to have lower scores than the general pool of admitted applicants (say 50-60 pts, but not 100 to 150 pts).</p>

95

<p>Again, someone w/o debate skills tries to pour out some statements.
"bearcats...my information is being derived straight out of adofficers statements..lets not forget that adofficer has worked at top universities and probably knows what hes talking about"
Beefs, I answered this in my previous posts but maybe it was due to my lack of skills in expressing. I'll try again.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>In debate, facts are MUCH stronger than just personal opinions, as the ad officer admitted him/her self in his second post. Say statistics show 30 thousand people died in a year, can u "argue" and say "in my opinion it was 20 thousand"? A quote from a very insightful CCer (I forgot who, I'm sorry), numbers don't lie, people do.</p></li>
<li><p>second of all, Adofficer has her side to defend. Just like my example, when a police officer kills a gang member, he is valued as a hero. When another gang member kills the same gang member, people just think it's a fight. He's no better than the guy he killed.
In this case, numbers are the third force. Numbers are neutral.
I'm sure someone brilliant as you can understand some basic math and statistics. :D</p></li>
</ol>

96

<p>oops, I didn't see adcom's last reply.
Again, I have to agree with you that you didn't say asian americans don't encounter racism.
But if your statements in previous posts say that all urms who are accepted are qualified for the school, w/ or w/o AA they're qualified. In that case, why are they shut out of UC Berkeley? Why don't they get in anymore when AA isn't used? </p>

<p>Again, I hope the discussion on this thread is neutral.
Some people hate AA because he's asian or white, others like it b/c he's urm. I do hope we discuss about the policy itself. That way the debate/discussion is much more meaningful :D</p>

97

<p>"There is A LOT of discontent in the state of California over what is going on at Berkeley and UCLA...and guess what? Most students at these schools ARE NOT happy with the homogeniety of these campuses"</p>

<p>So? My point is proven. You said AA doesnt affect the racial balance in the macroscale. It does. A 3 times increase from 1X% to 45% is a huge difference. So AA DOES affect the chance of qualified applicants. and yes. This also proves that AA hurts asians, if not at all, at some institutions at the very least</p>

<p>mind i quote, by AdOfficer:
"the effect felt by affirmative action is that minute on the individual, micro level."</p>

98

<p>AdOfficer - "Asian American students are recognized as minorities...they DO very much get considered under affirmative action policies at most highly selective schools. Filippino, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Hmong, Thai, Laotian, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, whateverese are considered minorities."</p>

<p>Uhh - sorry, but no. Asian-American applicants are NOT generally regarded as URM applicants at the elite universities (hence the the use of the term "under-represented minority"). Are you sure you are an admissions officer, since this is pretty simple stuff?</p>

<p>"However, there seems to be a pervasive thought amongst A LOT of self-identified Asian-American students on CC that they are being "discriminated against" because they have high gpas and high test scores and aren't getting into Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Brown, etc...,. NEWSFLASH - white students with high gpas and test scores aren't getting into these schools with high testing and gpas either."</p>

<p>NEWSFLASH!!! No one is saying that all applicants with high test scores and good ECs, whether white, Asian, URM (to a lesser extent), get into a particular selective university (of course there are many qualified applicants who get rejected, since schools can fill their classes with equally qualified applicants many times over), but when you look at the over-all admit rates for these various groups - there is no denying that Asian applicants have the LOWEST admit rates (not to mention that the disparity btwn admit rates for Asian and Jewish applicants is quite large).</p>

<p>"Latino and Hispanic students with high testing and gpas aren't getting into these schools. Black students with high testing and gpas aren't getting into these schools."</p>

<p>Really? The admit rates for Hispanic and black students with the highest scores/gpas are significantly higher than that for white or Asian applicants with similar qualifications. I'm sure there are some that do get rejected for one reason or another (bad essay, etc.), but overall, the chances of acceptance for URM applicants with high scores/gpas are significantly higher.</p>

<p>"However, there are many more Asian American students applying to these schools as a proportion of their race in the college-aged population than there are black and Hispanic students applying to these schools as a proportion of their races - that's why the admits rates are "higher" amongst these races. However, they are artificially inflated
because of the self-selectedness of the pool."</p>

<p>It's "self-selective" b/c there are smaller nos. of qualified black and Hispanic applicants. </p>

<p>Btw, how do you explain the higher admit rates for Jewish applicants? (Notwithstanding your laughable assertion that Jews face discrimination in admissions while Asian applicants do not.)</p>

<p>"There is A LOT of discontent in the state of California over what is going on at Berkeley and UCLA...and guess what? Most students at these schools ARE NOT happy with the homogeniety of these campuses."</p>

<p>So a campus that is 40-45% Asian is "homegenous" (are you implying that all Asians are the same?), but a campus that is 70-75% white isn't? Or what about 25-30% Jewish? (Please - I'm sure these same students would complain if the student body happened to be majority black/Hispanic).</p>

99

<p>lol now youre questioning his credentials?</p>

100

<p>i second k&s's points except for the fact that he questions whether Adofficer is a real admissions officer..i think that went over the line</p>

<p>I also hope AdOfficer would respond to this i posted earlier</p>

<p>"There is A LOT of discontent in the state of California over what is going on at Berkeley and UCLA...and guess what? Most students at these schools ARE NOT happy with the homogeniety of these campuses"</p>

<p>So? My point is proven. You said AA doesnt affect the racial balance in the macroscale. It does. A 3 times increase from 1X% to 45% is a huge difference. So AA DOES affect the chance of qualified applicants. and yes. This also proves that AA hurts asians, if not at all, at some institutions at the very least</p>

<p>mind i quote, by AdOfficer:
"the effect felt by affirmative action is that minute on the individual, micro level."</p>