<p>I know that this debate has been going on in Columbia moving on up</p>
<p>but I was wondering
without trying to say UPenn > Columbia or Columbia > Upenn,
what are the strengths and weaknesses of each compared to each other?</p>
<p>Im not asking for which is better or worse
but rather the pros and cons of each</p>
<p>IN MANY WAYS THEY ARE SIMILAR</p>
<p>They are both large Ivy League research universities situated in major American cities.</p>
<p>They are both in relatively crappy neighborhoods</p>
<p>They are roughly equally wealthy. Penn has roughly 20,000 students and $5.92 billion endowment While Columbia has 21,500 students and $5.94 billion.</p>
<p>They are both bastions of academic excellence overall.</p>
<p>They both have their fair share of firsts. The Manhattan Project started at Columbia, ENIAC was built at Penn. Columbia had the first poli sci department, Penn had the first business school.</p>
<p>Columbia's Philolexian Society and Penn's Philomathean society are the two oldest student groups in America.</p>
<p>COLUMBIA WINS:</p>
<p>Columbia has better international name recognition as there is no state (or state university) with which it must share its namesake.</p>
<p>Columbia is in a much better city, which for some is a plus. For others, it is a drawback as it means less on-campus community.</p>
<p>Columbia is also in a better neighborhood. Morningside Heights has a lower crime rate than University City.</p>
<p>Penn's campus is nice but Columbia's is breathtaking.</p>
<p>Some Columbia departments are stronger (poli-sci, and certain regional studies for example)</p>
<p>Columbia has way more Nobel laureates. </p>
<p>Columbia has more left-wingers (depends on your POV whether this is good or not)</p>
<p>Columbia instills in all its students a strong Western civ-focused core (again depends on your POV)</p>
<p>PENN WINS:</p>
<p>Philadelphia < NYC (duh) which means less time is spent in the city and more time building campus community</p>
<p>Some Penn departments are stronger (business, life sciences/bioengineering, anthropology, certain regional studies for example)</p>
<p>If alumni donations are any guide, Penn students ultimately like their alma mater more.</p>
<p>Penn has more interdisciplinary studies programs between its four undergraduate schools.</p>
<p>Penn will have a much easier time expanding over the next 2 decades as it has a large parcel of empty land it bought from the post office.</p>
<p>Penn does a better job of respecting free speech, at least with regards to controversial speakers and the middle eastern studies depts.</p>
<p>Penn has less left-wingers0 (depends on your POV)</p>
<p>It'd be helpful if you could state your intended major. Also are you politically active?</p>
<p>
[quote]
They are both in relatively crappy neighborhoods
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Hmm...Morningside Heights is boring relative to much the rest of Manhattan, but it's not really comparable to Penn's area, which is severely lacking in shops, restaurants, and services by comparison. If Morningside were dropped into Philadelphia, it would certainly be the most densely populated, busy part of the city. So yes, relative to the rest of New York, Morningside is sleepy (I wouldn't call it crappy, which has different connotations). Relative to University City, it's bustling.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Columbia's Philolexian Society and Penn's Philomathean society are the two oldest student groups in America.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Eh...doesn't Whig-Clio at Princeton take the pie for this one?</p>
<p>Columbia is in a much better city, which for some is a plus. For others, it is a drawback as it means less on-campus community.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Some Penn departments are stronger (business, life sciences/bioengineering, anthropology, certain regional studies for example)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Should be mentioned that Columbia does not have an undergraduate business school/major at all.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Penn does a better job of respecting free speech, at least with regards to controversial speakers and the middle eastern studies depts.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Here you're confusing institutions with radical students and intemperate professors.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If Morningside were dropped into Philadelphia, it would certainly be the most densely populated, busy part of the city.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I've been to Morningside, University City, and the rest of Philadelphia and while Morningside is definitely more dense than UCity, to say it would be more so than the rest of Philadelphia is just silly.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Here you're confusing institutions with radical students and intemperate professors.
[/quote]
Perhaps, but I think professors count as part of the institution, whereas the sort of students drawn to it, while not part of the institution, are certainly a holistic factor. Columbia draws far more radicals than Penn (Penn doesn't have an International Socialists Organization chapter, for example).</p>
<p>Again, this is really contingent on one's opinion. Some people would no doubt consider the relative abundance of radicals to be a good thing. Capitalists like myself might feel otherwise.</p>
<p>Very good point pearfire</p>
<p>My major is history and I intend on becoming a lawyer</p>
<p>At the graduate level I would certainly recommend Columbia over Penn, but at the undergraduate level I don't think there would be much of a difference, if any.</p>
<p>If you are aiming to be a lawyer, it is worth pointing out that Penn allows its undergraduates to enroll in some courses at Penn Law.</p>
<p>Columbia mandates that you steep yourself in the great works of Western civilization which I think is good not simply for pre-law but for life as a citizen of this republic. Though to be fair you can educate yourself in the Western canon at Penn should you choose to.</p>
<p>I've heard a lot of things about Penn "gaming" the US News rankings. is that necessarily a bad thing? what exactly are they doing?</p>
<p>another thing my parents are worried about
If I go to Columbia can i get housing for 4 years? will that just end up being more expensive that living outside? am i gonna have to sell a kidney to get a room?</p>
<p>just the opposite. as long as you stay on campus, you are guaranteed housing for all 4 years, at rates that are comparable to that of other colleges around the country even those in areas with much less pricey real estate. in fact, schools in manhattan are probably the only places where school housing is LESS expensive than community-area housing. you're essentially paying $600-700/month for dorm housing, but on the market a room in an apartment share like what upperclassmen have would easily run you $1000-1200 on the open market in the columbia neighborhood.</p>
<p>Oh and Columbia is an Ivy ;)
Not sure about Penn...</p>
<p>ok and i read in the Columbia FinAid package that my finaid wont change much over the next 4 years. How true is this? </p>
<p>Also, I am VERY interested in studying abroad for a semester or two. Is thsi very likely? pricey?</p>
<p>Thanks
you guys are so helpful (I just wish the FinAid was as helpful....)</p>
<p>"Oh and Columbia is an Ivy
Not sure about Penn..."</p>
<p>^ Best response so far</p>
<p>stop baiting JohnnyK, if we're not careful he'll stick around. :)</p>
<p>If JohnnyK and Columbia2002 got into a brawl, who would win? Hmmmmm? I'd love to see that though. But for what it's worth- JohnnyK is one of the most successful people to have ever dare stand up against C2002.</p>
<p>Penn vs Columbia
They are VERY similar schools. Among the largest of the Ivies. They have similar total populations, roughly equal endowments, shared institutional leanings towards their grad schools (unspoken but true). Both located in large cities. Similar demographics, diversity stats, etc. Very international student bodies, Penn may have more student abroad programs. Both provide similar financial aid packages.</p>
<p>Academically, they are roughly balanced. Penn is slightly stronger in social sciences, Columbia is slightly stronger in humanities. Columbia trumps Penn in engineering and the hard sciences, but Penn has Wharton and Nursing (which have no undergrad equivalent at Columbia). Penn has an advantage in its interdisciplinary programs and research via its One University policy, while Columbia’s Core provides an outstanding intellectual underpinning for its students.</p>
<p>Grad schools – match point
Penn wins in Medicine (huge margin), Nursing (huge), Business (large), Dental (small)
Columbia wins in Education (huge), Social Work, (huge), Law (small), Engineering (medium)
Roughly a tie in Arts & Sciences; Journalism = Annenberg; Architecture = Penn Design
Can’t directly compare Penn Veterinary, or Columbia SIPA, Public Health or Arts</p>
<p>Overall, Penn allows possibly the greatest level of academic experimentation and exploration in the Ivies behind Brown. But Penn definitely has grades and they can be harsh especially in Wharton and Engineering. Penn and Cornell are rumored as the easiest Ivies to enter (yes, even with 16% admit rates), but the hardest ones to stay in. Tough places, but lots of fun. I don't know how Columbia is for grading or mentoring. </p>
<p>Each has huge arrays of on-campus clubs. Columbia is more politically active (sometimes termed radical), Penn more professionally oriented. Penn has its Learning Hubs (faculty, undergrads, grads, locals mix to discuss & work on projects in creative writing, civic service, technology, pure research). I don't think Columbia has a similar set of initiatives.</p>
<p>Penn, overall, gets the nod. It has more momentum, has placed better institutional bets in faculty recruitment, research initiatives and commitments to civic service. It’s come farther, faster than most peers and is showing signs of accelerating its gains within the ranks of higher education.</p>
<p>Well that was well-thought out. Almost too reasonable to be fun!</p>
<p>truazn, you have discovered my achilles' heel--I am a sucker for flattery, regardless of how disingenuous it may or may not be.</p>
<p>That being said, 3.5 years of living in West Philly ("urban warfare" may be too kind), I would undoubtedly best C2002 in hand-to-hand combat.</p>
<p>Restating red&blue's main point, I still think that Columbia is one of the best schools in the world. I would love to go to SIPA or the J-School for grad school as they offer me something Penn simply cannot.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Penn is slightly stronger in social sciences
[/quote]
</p>
<p>With the rather glaring exception of poli sci, that is... :-(</p>
<p>In terms of USWNR rankings at least... Penn's inexplicable quantum leap forward (what else can you call it) is due to strategic admissions---- manipulating anything and everything to get's rank ahead. Not that I blame them--- better ranking = better students so it's somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophesy.</p>