<p>I already posted this on Columbia and then I just realized i might be getting a biased response.</p>
<p>I plan to major in history and plan to go into law.
I also would like to study abroad for at least a semester or up to a year.</p>
<p>btw.
im not looking for a UPenn > Columbia or Columbia > UPenn answer.</p>
<p>Rather: what are the types of things that distinguishes each from another?</p>
<p>Wharton and CAS offer a joint minor in Legal Studies and History...</p>
<p>I've tried my hand in the Columbia forum but most worth repeating is that Penn will let you take classes in Penn Law as an undergrad.</p>
<p>Our history faculty is stellar. They testify before Congress, they write guest pieces for the Wall Street Journal, etc.</p>
<p>And of course Philly is less likely than NYC to get nuked by those dastardly terrorists.</p>
<p>I posted this message elsewhere, but thought it'd be good to add it here as well given the topic:</p>
<p>I will provide my own ranking of top schools, but first I have to add a few thoughts:</p>
<p>1) I am shocked and amazed by the level of Penn-bashing on this – and several other Columbia -sites. A lot of the bashing is based on spurious data, half baked statistics or long-passed glories. The implied inferiority complex for Columbia students/alums is shocking and sad. You can’t lift your institution by tearing another one down. No other Ivy crowd spends ANYWHERE near as much time trying to justify why their school is a hair’s breadth away from the Holy Grail of HYP-dom!!!!</p>
<p>2) I (full disclosure – a Penn alum) have immense respect for Columbia. It’s one of the finest academic institutions in the world. But – to set the record straight - Columbia’s relative standing has slipped; it’s been falling for a long while. Columbia (like Yale) suffered dearly during the social/class crises of the 60s and suffered again (like NYC) during the financial crises of the 70s. The school is recovering, but it’s lack of leadership has caused:</p>
<ul>
<li>extraordinary academic strengths in economics, history, psychology, and other humanities have materially faded over time (Top 5 standing 20 years ago, Top 15 now)</li>
<li>faculty citations, publishing and overall visibility have declined substantially over time</li>
<li> alumni giving is piddling relative to Columbia’s main peers</li>
<li>the lowest endowment growth among top schools for the last 20 years; it’s falling from the #2 endowment (with a big gap ahead of the third ranked school) to #6 among private schools with Penn about equal and others closing in)</li>
<li>graduate schools are accused by many of resting on their laurels/coasting on their NYC connections vs producing innovative scholarship and service programs for the broader community</li>
</ul>
<p>3) Regarding the So-Called Gaming of US News - come on kids!!!! Do you really think that all the schools don’t manage their numbers vis-?-vis USNews. Most people suspect Princeton “games” it’s admissions yield, Penn “manages” its research spending, Chicago “adjusts” its admit ratios, and Columbia “games” its research spend and endowment figures. To claim everyone but Columbia does it is juvenile and disingenuous. They may all do it, but they’re all starting from stellar levels anyway, so the USN rankings are still relatively fair.</p>
<p>Two quick questions to wonder about- a) what would happen if the medical research spend was deducted from the research totals for the Ivies then the list was re-ranked. Cornell would be #1, then far down the list Penn, then Harvard, then Yale. </p>
<p>b) even more interesting, adjust the admit stats for total apps per seat, yield on students w/o fin aid (no buying of students), % of class filled via ED/EA and total yield on all admits. The revised rankings would be shocking.</p>
<p>On to the Rankings:</p>
<ul>
<li>Small clusters makes more sense for such rankings; absolute pecking-order ranking is almost meaningless for universities *
** These rankings are of the entire organization, not just the undergrad components **</li>
</ul>
<p>SUPER ELITES (global name recognition, THE best academic and financial resources)
Harvard / Stanford
(the absolute best in terms of overall academic scope and depth, well balanced academic strengths in many areas, extraordinary financial and human resources, committed and thoughtful leadership over decades, huge research programs, superlatives among their faculty, fanatically loyal alumni, aggressive and successful fund raising)</p>
<p>Among the two, Harvard may be the best in the world today, but Stanford has the momentum. In 10-15 years on its current trajectory, Stanford will hold the crown.</p>
<p>MIT
For what it does – hard sciences, engineering, quantitative social sciences, there’s no better school. Not even Stanford. Down a notch due to it’s relatively narrower mission/focus.</p>
<p>Princeton / Yale
Amazing resources, strong names and deep traditions. Third position in this cluster due to (a) Yale’s focus on arts & humanities to the clear detriment of its science and engineering areas; and (b) Princeton is the most balanced academically among the SUPER ELITES (with the possible exception of Stanford), but it’s not a major research school. Unique focus among the SUPER ELITES on undergraduate education.</p>
<p>ELITES (broad & deep resources; large research programs in multiple areas)</p>
<p>Penn / Columbia
VERY similar schools. Among the largest of the Ivies. They have similar total populations, roughly equal endowments, shared institutional leanings towards their grad schools (unspoken but true). Both located in large cities. </p>
<p>Academically, they are roughly balanced. Penn is slightly stronger in social sciences, Columbia is slightly stronger in humanities. Columbia trumps Penn in engineering and
the hard sciences, but Penn has Wharton and Nursing. Penn has an advantage in its interdisciplinary programs and research via its One University policy, while Columbia’s Core provides an outstanding intellectual underpinning for its students.</p>
<p>Grad schools – match point
Penn wins in Medicine (huge margin), Nursing (huge), Business (large), Dental (small)
Columbia wins in Education (huge), Social Work, (huge), Law (small), Engineering (medium)
Roughly a tie in Arts & Sciences; Journalism = Annenberg; Architecture = Penn Design
Can’t directly compare Penn Veterinary, or Columbia SIPA, Public Health or Arts</p>
<p>Penn, however, gets the nod. It has more momentum, has placed better institutional bets in faculty recruitment, research initiatives and commitments to civic service. It’s come farther, faster than most peers and is showing signs of accelerating its gains within the ranks of higher education.</p>
<p>Duke / Cornell
Great schools, significant research enterprises, distinguished alums. Duke is outstanding in the professions and life sciences. Cornell is extraordinary in engineering, the hard sciences, veterinary medicine, natural sciences, management. A notch below the other ELITES, because Duke is “relatively weaker” in certain humanities and hard sciences; Cornell is weaker in the social sciences and arts. Both have slightly lower levels of financial resources, and are slightly less selective</p>
<p>WUSTL / Northwestern
Very strong schools with particular areas of world class scholarship. WUSTL in hard sciences, social work, medicine, architecture. Northwestern in business, advertising, journalism, arts and humanities. Fewer financial resources, global recognition than other ELITES</p>
<p>USC
Great resources in the sciences, engineering, communications, film, business. Very international student body. Good momentum, solid financial base.</p>
<p>UberIntellectuals (heavy focus on research, intensely intellectual, limited social scene)</p>
<p>UChicago
No Ivy (except possibly Yale in the arts, Harvard in social sciences) can match Chicago for sheer intellectual firepower. Many of the key schools of thought which have framed American life in the last fifty years (economics, social policy, foreign affairs, legal theory) were developed in Hyde Park. Conservative government’s intellectual underpinnings are here. Extraordinary intellectual depth, broad research program, strong financial base. And reinvigorated leadership.</p>
<p>CalTech
Pound for pound, no school can match CalTech in engineering and hard sciences. Not even MIT or Stanford. Strong endowment, loyal alumni base.</p>
<p>Johns Hopkins
Deep focus on health care, medicine, public health. Life sciences complex only matched by USCF, Penn and Harvard. Great strengths in humanities, international affairs, arts.<br>
Intensely research driven. Rumored to have turned down joining the Ivy League amid fears doing so would weaken its commitment to academics.</p>
<p>Other great schools</p>
<p>Other wonderful places to learn include Dartmouth, Brown, Williams, Swarthmore, Haverford. But they are much smaller, narrower academic platforms and can’t reasonably be compared to the research driven institutions listed above.</p>
<p>To humor those who want a strict Ivy Plus ranking (with nods to schools with momentum):</p>
<p>Stanford
Harvard
MIT
Princeton
Yale
Penn
Columbia
Duke
Cornell
Brown
Dartmouth</p>
<p>That’s all folks!!!!!!</p>
<p>Jesus that was well thought out and written</p>
<p>hes from penn, duh</p>
<p>if you wanted a suicide note, go to the cornell forums</p>
<p>^ ouch, echoing the others though, great post and thanks!</p>
<p>Wow, Red&Blue
Good job, but doesnt Berkeley deserve a spot? At least in the Brown Williams range?</p>
<p>Thanks for the reminder AznN3rd. I've definitely been remiss in listing the top public schools:</p>
<p>My take:</p>
<p>UC Berkeley (the only true academic peer to Stanford and Harvard; awesome in engineering, hard sciences, humanities, arts, natural sciences, law, business...you name it, Berk is great at it. Add a stunning environment, solid funding and leadership. Not nearly as radical as people pretend)</p>
<p>U Michigan (an academic supernova, on par with the ELITE schools above, strong in almost all areas)</p>
<p>the Other UC Schools, particularly UCLA and UC San Diego, are all very powerful institutions, extraordinary pockets of excellence in many areas. </p>
<p>U Virginia
(very strong educational programs, not as global or as big of a research enterprise as the other schools listed above)</p>
<p>Other leaders - U North Carolina, U Mass (espc in the humanities), U Illinois (obviously in engineering, also the social sciences)</p>
<hr>
<p>Special cases:</p>
<p>UCSF - in the life sciences, they are a juggernaut. Huge range - biomedical science, medicine, nursing, pharmacy, dentistry, etc. ENORMOUS research funding, outstanding academic firepower, leading edge service/outreach. The only real peers in range and quality are Johns Hopkins, Penn, Harvard, perhaps Washington U.</p>
<p>US Service academies - not research institutions (the Feds pay the Ivy Plus schools to do that), but unrivalled at producing leaders. Strong educational programs and super selective (on par with HYP).</p>
<p>I think it is worth noting that Berkeley as as a graduate school is a league above its undergraduate school, which suffers from large class sizes etc. that are the inevitable function of a public school.</p>
<p>Columbia University Faculty have won many Nobel prizes in the last 10 years, e. g. Horst Stormer (Physics) Richard Axel (Medicine), Edmund Phelps (Economics), Joseph Stiglitz (economics-although he just came to Columbia), Orhan Pamuk (literature-new Faculty addition in SIPA), Eric Kandel (Medicine), William Vickrey (Economics-awarded 1996 now deceased), RObert Merton (SEAS grade-Economics 1997/I know this is not fair, but it's a recent one), RObert Mundell (Economics-1999), Richard Hamilton (foundation for Poincare Proof-over 40, but would have received Fields Medal otherwise with Pearlman), wow....Columbia University is def slipping...lol. What is wrong with playing of the fact that Columbia is located in NYC (the greatest city by an objective measure in the US and maybe, just maybe the world)? Part of the college experience is gaining real-world (read internship) knowledge while in college to apply to various fields. While it is true any IVY will allow one to be competitive for a Wall-Street position, most other industries require work experience prior to the entry level job, e.g. Journalism, TV, Marketing, Fashion, etc. Perhaps all students want to go to Wall Street? Also, the Columbia area has improved (due to gentrification) by leaps and bounds. The endowment investment returns have finally started growing competitive to Columbia's peer schools, e.g. 18% last year. Renovations to labs and facilities throughout campus etc...I am tired of writing, but I await your response ;)</p>
<p>Fact is that compared to Columbia before WWII that is INDEED slipping, champ.</p>
<p>Oh OK...JohnnyK....last 10 years of scholarship at Penn vs. Columbia? Read above post on Columbia...not talking terrorism here, but faculty quality and influence (Nobel Laureates are pretty influential) ;)</p>
<p>Wow, Columbia has more Nobel laureates than Penn. IT must be a better school. At least we learn how to recognize fallacious arguments at Penn.</p>
<p>I am glad you learn that at Penn considering I never berated Penn. In my most recent post I simply wished to compare faculty achievement during the last 10 years, not say this means Columbia is a better school than Penn....you said that, not me :P</p>
<p>Pro: Penn is Penn.
Con: Columbia is Columbia</p>
<p>honestly, just think about it</p>
<p>Pro/Con is a juxtaposition construct USUALLY used to compare different aspects of the same thing....your use? I hope you don't go to Penn...LMAO</p>
<p>Sorry to disappoint but I indeed go to Penn. I maintain efficiency by omitting the obvious nonexistence of Penn cons and Columbia pros.</p>
<p>You also fail at obvious sarcasm.</p>
<p>The internet needs a noobblocker.</p>
<p>Clearly.......</p>