Stressful quandry

Parent Cafe
1

<p>I really need some objective perspectives on a quandry we are facing. </p>

<p>My son has been accepted to a top 40 LAC with an engineering program. He has been strongly considering studying chemical engineering. It was his #1 choice of schools to attend. He applied ED and was deferred to RD. Then, he was accepted RD, but not to the engineering program, but rather to liberal arts. This school typically does not have a pathway to move from liberal arts to engineering, though it may be possible once he is there. It sounds unlikely to happen given the competitive pool of kids at this LAC. </p>

<p>We are not eligible for financial aid so this LAC will probably cost around $230k when all is said in done (tuition, room/board, other expenses)</p>

<p>He has also been accepted to other schools. Two of these are very large universities, both in top 100 in USNWR, but not top 50. One of them, the more expensive and slightly less competitive, he was accepted to the engineering program. The other one, he was accepted to the liberal arts program, but there seems to be a clear, well-trodden pathway to their well regarded engineering program. </p>

<p>The pricing at these schools will range from $90k to $130k. The money we have set aside for college is in his name so he would have $50-$90k left to start his life, go to grad school, save, or whatever with these options. The LAC would utilize all the saved money and then some.</p>

<p>Son was really much more attracted to the LAC w/engineering style schools than to the large universities.</p>

<p>Our son's initial reaction was to attend the LAC regardless. . .which I understand. It's hard to turn away your #1 choice. This LAC is very popular and well known, with great teaching and a gorgeous campus. I understand the attraction.</p>

<p>I gently asked what he planned to study at the LAC, and after some discussion, he did agree that being able to move into the engineering program there seemed somewhat remote . . .in high school, he really is a B/B+ student - -and his science grades are not the highest. He's at a very competitive private high school so that has helped his admissions profile. SATs are 1960 with 720M. </p>

<p>I'm a little at a loss on how to best guide my child at this point. We are ultimately leaving the decision in his hands, and we can afford both options. I'm of the opinion though that $230k for a liberal arts degree may not be money well spent. This is a student who is unlikely to want to pursue grad school. He's bright, but not that academically driven. So I think he needs an employable major, and he's attracted to STEM. On the flip side, I know he'd be very happy at this wonderful LAC. He may or may not be at the larger universities, but socially he makes friends easily, LOVES sports, etc. so though he doesn't see himself at them, I'm not convinced he couldn't accommodate to the larger size. </p>

<p>I'm curious on what you would advise in this situation:</p>

<ul>
<li>Roll the dice, go to the LAC and hope he pulls off an unlikely transfer to engineering?</li>
<li>Go to the LAC and hope he will transfer if he doesn't get into the engineering (doubt he'd do this if he loved it)?</li>
<li>Try to steer him toward one of the two universities instead?</li>
</ul>

<p>I feel so badly for him because he was so excited to get accepted to the LAC - - until he realized it wasn't for the engineering school. Which unfortunately he didn't actually notice until about 12 hours after receiving the notification.</p>

<p>Thoughts?? Ultimately, it is his decision, but I know he will take our opinions strongly into consideration . . .and I therefore want our opinions to be well considered.</p>

2

<p>I think he should call the LAC and speak with a dean rather than just assuming he won’t be able to transfer to engineering. I think it’s a fair question, and you should get some honest answers on how easy or difficult it is.</p>

<p>The first year courses for a chem major and a chemical engineering major might not be that different – intro chem, physics, calculus. But if he decides later to transfer to a different university’s engineering program, they might make him retake some courses! I know someone to whom this happened. This student I know was at top 10 LAC, moving to a top 20 large, private university. It’s not that he hadn’t done well, just that the engineering school felt their physics was more rigorous than the LAC’s could possibly be. And to add insult to injury, previously, the LAC made him take physics even though he had AP physics in high school!</p>

3

<p>I’m never quite sure what people mean when they say “liberal arts” because technically liberal arts includes Physics, Chemistry and Math. So if he has no restriction on what courses he can take (other than maybe prohibition from a few first year eng survey courses) I see no reason why he can’t start out at the LAC, take Math, Chemistry, Physics and some humanities/GE just like any engineering student would, and then plot his strategy a year or so down the line. </p>

<p>It may turn out he isn’t cut out for engineering/STEM at all. THat happens to a lot of students. Or he may completely ace all his first and second year math and science courses which would likely leave him with a lot of options for moving into any sort of technical major somewhere. Although he might add on a semster or two extra.</p>

4

<p>For engineering, overall U ranking doesn’t matter much provided the program is accredited by ABET. Engineering is notoriously difficult to transfer into, and with many regular engineering students struggling to finish in fewer than five years, adding in a transfer detour can easily mean six years of college before completing the BSEng. If he is serious about engineering, and he likes the place where he was admitted directly into engineering, I would encourage him to pay another visit to that campus.</p>

<p>If he’s not so set on engineering, and a possible extra year or two is in the budget, I’d have him revisit the big U that admitted him into the arts division as well. He may like that better.</p>

<p>He also should be offered the option of a gap year to reconsider his goals and his application list.</p>

5

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</p>

<p>This is the one I would pick if he is fairly certain he wants to study engineering. Forget about the rankings. They mean nothing. I know little about engineering but I have read that ABET certification is the most important thing for engineering programs–not some biased, for-profit rankings source. Employers don’t care.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if you have serious doubts about the sincerity of his interest in engineering, I’d choose the LAC.</p>

6

<p>Chem E is a difficult and rigorous major. The sequence or matrix you follow usually does not leave a lot of room for electives. My son is a mech e major and he needed calc through def eq and the engineering side seemed even more difficult.</p>

<p>Maybe there was a reason the LAC admitted him but did not place him in chem e. I would want to know why? Is it too impacted so its a lottery major or because they where hesitant for other reasons? Especially if there is no clear pathway to switch to chem e.</p>

<p>On the other hand many students switch their majors while in college. Our local 4 year had an engineering school that while they matriculate as freshman as pre-engineering many, MANY do not progress to the actual engineering school. They have problems in the calc sequence and the calc-based physics. They must maintain a certain gpa to move to the engineering school and one or two classes without optimum grades will prevent the movement to the engineering school of the uni.</p>

<p>Does the LAC have other majors besides chem e that would interest your son? Econ, finance, physics, biochem…</p>

<p>And do the bigger unis have other majors that would interest your son if he does start to take the chem e matrix and changes his mind? </p>

<p>Which one offers the most majors he might choose? Not which one offers the most majors but rather which one offers the most majors HE might like and enjoy? And maybe more than one?</p>

<p>Undergrad is one of the few times left in his life when he can take a class because it interests him rather than it being work focused. he should really make the most of ALL the opportunities afforded to him, regardless if its at the LAC or unis.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>Another suggestion is to post in the LAC’s forum and see if you can get any input from students/parents there who may have experience either being in or trying to get in to the engineering program.</p>

8

<p>Well, 100K will send you on a lot vacations to pretty places or buy a house in some areas or participate in study abroad.
I certainly wouldn’t spend it on a LAC that doesn’t even give me the major I was interested in. How pretty the campus is really isn’t a factor here. This to me is a no-brainer. Go re-visit the universities. Big universities generally offer things small schools can’t–sports programs, greater variety in majors etc. Engineering will be competitive no matter where he goes–it’s tough.
I do sympathize with your son’s disappointment but don’t let that be your ruling factor in deciding.</p>

9

<p>These are wonderful responses and very helpful.</p>

<p>LBowie - I do love the idea of calling the dean of the engineering school. This situation is a bit “out of the box”, and at least we would have an idea of what it might take to actually effect the transfer.</p>

<p>happymom and sally - - Your thoughts are more in line with mine. Why not go to a school where they like him already for their engineering program? It’s a good program, and the school has many other options if he doesn’t like it. He would have a much easier time transferring out of the engineering program into something else than the reverse. He is the type of kid who isn’t perfectionistic, so even if his grades weren’t terrific, he’d probably just persist in the program and end up with the degree. Throw some co-op in there, and I feel he’d be well situated to find employment. I think where I am most struggling is how vociferously I should be putting forth this viewpoint with my son . . .I don’t want to “force” him into a situation, and then he forever regrets not going to his first choice LAC. Thank you both for your thoughts!!</p>

<p>katwkittens - - For a number of reasons that are too boring to go into, my son is taking two AP science courses at once this year . . .and his grades in them were not good. Which I think is why he wasn’t competitive for this LACs engineering program. It’s a very competitive LAC. Of course this is a concern for college performance too . . .but his hs is extremely rigorous . . .so I don’t think he’ll do any worse. My concern is that he doesnt love school so I don’t see grad school as being likely . . .which means he would need a bit more of a work focus now, in the undergrad years. I think if the LAC had business type courses, my son might be interested in those, but their business school is also separated. So he can’t try out accounting or finance. The only majors I see as really viable at the LAC are math and chemistry and economics . . .but I think he’d have to have an eye on grad school afterward . . .However, I love your thinking so I’m going to print out all of the majors for the three schools . . .and let my son do a comparison and see what might be appealing to him if chem E doesn’t work out . . .</p>

<p>It’s so hard because of course in my mind I am worried that he really doesn’t have a basis for the chem e decision other than really liking chemistry and a sense of strong job opportunities (he’s pretty pragmatic) - - so the chances of a switch are high. But I’m also thinking he doesn’t have a strong pull toward anything else . . .he’s been talking about engineering for a while because it employs a lot of math which he really does like the best.</p>

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<p>gouf78 - -It is very hard for me to take the money totally out of the equation here. I mean if you aren’t sure about something, does it make sense to spend a boatload of money on it? I feel he could explore more, take an extra semester or switch majors more readily, etc. if that money were available. At the LAC, his options will just be more limited . . .and I do feel a little like the focus should primarily be on the academic program options as opposed to the comfortable feeling there . . .sigh.</p>

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<p>While his stats are good, is he a good enough student to compete at the higher ranked school in the engineering department? He will be up against straight A students that scored in the 2200+ range on the SAT with 800 math scores. Does he realize that? If he doesn’t go engineering, it may not matter as much. I guess based on the limited information you provided, he will have a hard road to follow for chem e. He will need at least a 3.0 to even be considered for a job in chem e. Is that realistic given his science grades are not high? Also, I just have a hard time spending THAT much more money for any school, but that is me.</p>

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<p>I know what you are saying as a LAC with engineering is very appealing. My D was accepted to one and was the majority of the type of schools she applied to. She wanted a medium sized school with a better M/F ratio and a good engineering department. </p>

<p>My other child went to a STEM heavy school. With a heavily male enrollment.</p>

<p>In the end, both kids had limited options for electives. They both had classes and were friends with the people in their majors. At graduation, my S had a bigger ratio of women in his major than D did. They both got good support in career services and both got great jobs. </p>

<p>I don’t want to be negative about the LAC because it was wonderful. But in the end I’m not sure her classes were much different in makeup than her brothers. And all those great electives, kinda hard to enjoy when you are taking 3 other major intensive classes and 2 labs.</p>

<p>I guess I’m saying that I’m not sure the LAC is worth all that extra money and not being in the engineering school.</p>

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<p>Step 1 is a searching evaluation of why, and, how, he knows he wants to be an engineer. If that seems solid, the list of schools he applied to must be reevaluated. (The fact that he didn’t immediately search the acceptance letter for the “school of engineering” suggests that maybe he’s not wedded to it.)</p>

<p>You have the freedom that comes with being prepared full-payors anywhere. That also means he has the freedom to transfer, if needed, without concerns about losing merit aid, but hopefully without losing too much time and credit. You presumably want to stay within budget for the degree. This young man could be 22 or 23, and debt-free with a degree and a nice condo down-payment in hand, if money is not wasted. So these decisions matter.</p>

<p>There are private, respected engineering schools (such as rochester inst of tech and Rensselaer) that may have been within his reach. If schools like these were overlooked in the search, maybe he should pull together a list of engineering schools that he might transfer into, and make sure his first year program will help with that goal. I would say “gap year” if preserving first-time eligibility for merit aid were an issue, but for him, it’s not.</p>

<p>The other thing that remains to be seen is whether he really has the single-mindedness and drive that he will need to succeed as a HS “B” student in an engineering program. His math SAT is encouraging, of course. Time will tell.</p>

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<p>I feel for you OP, I have a similar situation with S3. He preferred the “style” of the smaller LACs with engineering but he’s been accepted to stronger more highly recognized engineering programs at large publics. The difference in costs are not an issue since the engineering colleges, even our state publics, are expensive and the merit at the other out of state publics offset, so pretty close to the finaid letters from the privates. S3 will decide in 2 weeks. For the first time my H and I are counseling him to go to the publics because of the depth and breadth of the majors tangential to engineering (construction, operations, etc.)…something that isn’t available at the privates. For our other 2 we counseled they go to the smaller schools since their majors were not as narrow or preprofessional as engineering. But like others said, engineering at the smaller colleges is very enticing. If the kids (yours and mine) complete the engineering degree the potential job outcomes and salaries will not be much different than from the large public engineering programs and the smaller programs…but the scary part is between freshman fall and senior spring - what happens if they can’t complete or don’t want to complete - what are the other major options? This is what we are encouraging out son to look at closely.</p>

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<p>I would say that if your son is “not academically driven” then majoring in engineering is going to make him miserable, especially at a competitive school. STEM is a very broad area and with some guidance I am certain he can find an area that would suit him. If $ is not an issue, I would let him go to the LAC that he had his heart set on and find another area within STEM to major in. I think the school might have been sending a subtle message in where they placed him. Engineering is a real grind at the competitive schools!</p>

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<p>If your son is interested in math but not up for the grind of engineering, then by all means look at Econ as a major. Econ can be as quantitative as you want it to be. Some students get a BA and stop at Calc 1 and one course in stats. </p>

<p>Others, turn it into a quant major by adding Calc2, linear algebra, econometrics, and aother stats course or 2. Do a summer interhsnsip in social media analytics. </p>

<p>How about adding a minor or second major in geography or geology with a GIS emphasis? You then have a very employable combination that is both business like and techie.</p>

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<p>I think I would try to ascertain why he was not accepted to the engineering department of the two schools that admitted him to liberal arts instead. It could be that these schools did not feel he met their criteria for admittance to an engineering program. If that’s the case, you need to seriously consider the fact that your son may not be able to handle the rigor of an engineering major, and would have to transfer to a liberal arts major at some point. That would suggest enrolling at his #1 LAC and pursuing a degree in the arts and sciences.</p>

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<p>I won’t comment on the financial aspect because that’s quite personal. I think there may a larger issue than costs. All of the following is written in the spirit of being honest and provide the best advice with the information I have (your post). It’s not meant to be disrespectful. I advise science majors at a large top science university and my majors take many of the same classes as ENG majors. I teach CHEM-E majors as well as our own. I read red flags here - based on your own words.</p>

<p>“in high school, he really is a B/B+ student - -and his science grades are not the highest”. </p>

<p>The last part is what concerns me the most. Perhaps these universities see this too and offer him positions in LA instead of ENG. You have to consider, based on their experience, they may be right.</p>

<p>There are a few other comments that give me pause, but the statement that he is weaker in the sciences makes me concerned. Too many students choose a major that might not be their forte and struggle. I know this may generate some comments for others about “how should I limit this student’s dreams….etc ” Unfortunately, I witness the aftermath of such decisions each year. My experience tells me it ends poorly much more often than not. Not all science majors may be a good fit either. Keep in mind there are two types of sciences- more quantitative sciences (physical/chemical) and more descriptive (a straight biology major, for example). He should examine his science grades in detail. If he performed more poorly or had to work extra hard in calculus, physics or chemistry, pursuing a quantitative major might not be the best for him.</p>

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<p>The other thing to look at at any school he goes to and pursues engineering is what kind of support systems they have. One highly regarded engineering school we looked at for S (Big 10) had what I considered a throw you to the wolves approach. They were great but they were very clear that freshman year was hard and competitive. It was not the atmosphere that was right for him. He needed a more nurturing environment and did very well.</p>

<p>I think if looked at S in high school you would think he couldn’t do well either. He went to a competitive school and graduated in the top 40% of his class. He went to a tier 3 STEM school and thrived there. It was small enough that he really got individualized attention at a not as competitive school. He did very well in college, got great internships and has a great job now. Boys can take time to mature.</p>

<p>Another thing I would think about and see if chem e’s take longer to graduate than other majors and how that impacts your costs. We were told at one big 10 school that you could not get through their chem e in 8 semesters. Both children have told me that as a engineering majors chem e’s on average have more students who take longer to graduate.</p>

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<p>SteveMA - I am also concerned about his ability to compete at the more selective engineering programs (especially the one at the LAC). At the larger university for which he was admitted to liberal arts, I’m not quite as worried. They allow the kids to take the same curriculum as the engineering students, and if they get a 3.0 or above, they can matriculate. He’s a strong math/chemistry student. Physics is harder for him, but he’s capable of a 3.0 in it. The science he is really struggling with is actually biology . . .I’d feel the most confident if he went to the school where he was accepted for engineering.</p>

<p>deb and momofthreeboys - Thanks so much for the empathy with the issue!! I just feel like my son should TRY the engineering . . .and I feel like that door may be closed prematurely. I just struggle with the concept of guiding him vs. overly pressuring him on the decision and how to best do that when my bias is “go to the school that took you for engineering”.</p>

<p>HarvestMoon - Well I definitely think that the schools that didn’t take him for engineering are saying 'we have better students with which to fill our limited enrollment programs"! But my son has been accepted to other strong programs i.e. Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology (which has some things we loved, but some issues with gender imbalance and location). I’m definitely not convinced he can’t do engineering though . . .not sure if he will love it and stick with it. It’s hard to know that with a 17 year old. I do think some boys mature later . . .</p>