Strong Computer Science program at Midwest LAC? (And how small is too small?)

My son is starting to look for CS programs and hopes to apply to U Mich (in state) as well as Carnegie Mellon and maybe even MIT as “reach” schools. He’s got great grades, a 99+ percentile on PSAT 10 (still waiting on this fall’s score), and has already taken five college math classes as a junior. But with all the competition these days, we’re looking for some smaller colleges in the Midwest that might be safer bets but that still have strong Computer Science programs.

I just checked out two fairly strong LACs close to home (both excellent in sciences, sending a disproportionate number to grad school, etc.), and I was surprised to find that both only have 4-5 profs in CS, many of whom got their degrees back in the 1990s. Am I right to be worried about the caliber of a CS degree from such a program? And can anyone recommend a strong midwest LAC with a stronger CS dept.?

I wouldn’t worry about schools just because they only have 4-5 professors in CS. It’s likely that your son will be in relatively small classes with a lot of personalized instruction, which is a good thing. The main issue with the smaller schools is whether they offer the classes your son is interested in. I’d look at various schools and compare their CS offerings. Some schools may offer tracks or specialties like cybersecurity, AI, games, etc., that appeal to your son.

Not an LAC, but if your son is applying to places like Michigan, CMU and MIT, might as well look at Case Western. Very few LACs are well known for CS, mostly because CS programs build their reputations on graduate-level research and on how many successful tech businesses were created by alumni.

And I have to chuckle at the idea of avoiding professors who got their degrees back in the 1990s. The '90s weren’t that long ago. I personally would be more cautious about professors who got their Ph.D.s within the last five or six years, due to their general inexperience.

I don’t see how it’s possible that a school with 5 professors can offer adequate courses for a variety of CS subjects. The frequency would be so low that taking the courses would be a miracle even if they all were offered. I think you would need at least 8-10 professors/lecturers to realistically have a program with any sort of breadth. If there are truly only 4-5 professors, I can’t say I’d recommend going there. Agreed on the age of the Ph.D. overall, but an older greybeard department can be a hindrance if there is not any modern technology taught at all. That can be evaluated by looking at courses of course.

@TwoHearted

It seems you went from one extreme to the other. There are a lot of schools that are in the middle of CMU and Midwest LAC’s. They are also very different experiences, to the point that finding a student who would enjoy both is relatively remarkable. Why apply to MIT and the like but then look for LAC’s otherwise?

I went to a school that only had 4 or 5 full-time CS professors. There were also a few math and EE professors who split their time between teaching their main subjects and CS. It didn’t have a huge menu of classes, but it had enough to be a legit CS program. That’s why I originally suggested looking at the classes that were offered rather than focusing on the number of professors.

At the undergraduate level, you don’t need CS professors who are absolute experts in everything they teach. They just need to know enough to convey the general-level info that undergrads get taught. Kind of like in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

That seems like it was possible precisely because of the additional teaching help though. If there were only 4-5 professors teaching per semester, it would be hard to offer enough courses regularly it would seem to me. I agree, you don’t need super experts in every course for undergrad. But I think there is a notable gradient between your basic sufficient CS program and MIT, one that the OP’s son would be well suited for. That’s not to say you can’t be successful at a school with 4-5 professors and a smaller program with a middling selection of courses, but the path has a lot of advantages from those second-tier CS schools, like Case and others. I’m hoping the OP can shed light on the selected colleges thus far to be able to identify good options in that tier.

I have to admit, I was also scratching my head at the idea of applying to Michigan, CMU and MIT, but then also looking for local LACs to apply to.

http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19190340/#Comment_19190340 may be of help, but some things may have changed since then, so verify on college web sites.

Thanks for these comments–good points on both sides about the size question. (And a fair point to call me on the comment about PhDs from the 1990s!)

As for why LACs along with MIT: I guess I’m just looking for “safety” schools that are still strong options. Living in Michigan we could certainly apply to other state schools, but I’ll admit to a bias against large state schools with a strong party culture–and, having spent four years as a grad student at Michigan State, I would never want my son to go there as an undergrad. (An unfair bias, perhaps, and I know that UMich is also large with its own party culture–but I saw the scene at MSU firsthand.)

Looking for smaller strong colleges, though, brought me to the question about strong CS programs in small schools. Some LACs that are very strong in traditional Humanities or Sciences don’t seem to have much of an emphasis on CS–in part because they don’t have graduate programs, as Simba9 notes. Oberlin, for example, looks like they have 6 FT faculty (and, I must say, a website that really needs an update: https://www.cs.oberlin.edu/).

I guess I wondered about strong LAC options I might be overlooking. But maybe the better option is to apply to a few somewhat-less-competitive schools that are still strong in CS–Case Western, maybe Purdue, …?

Small LACs can also have party cultures.

If Schenectady, New York isn’t too far away, Union College has a very good reputation for computer science.

Thanks–hadn’t encountered Union College yet in my searching. I’ll check it out.

@TwoHearted

Where does your son stand in all of these preferences?

There are certainly good options that are decent at CS, have low greek participation, and are safe or safer than Ivy’s. Case Western, WPI, and RIT are three of many options I’d recommend. LAC’s have their advantages but many do not have adequate CS programs, so you’ll want to look carefully.

Have you looked at Rose-Hulman?

I think that medium sized universities would be better for CS than LACs because of the size.

URochester is an excellent choice for your son. It’s “almost” midwest. It’s a very academic school with very strong CS, and very LAC like.

WashU has very good CS also.

Thanks for the additional suggestions. I’ll definitely look (or take a second look) at these:
Rose Hulman
URochester
Wash U
Union C
Case Western
WPI
RIT

Just from what I know already about some of these, they sound like better options than the smaller LACs I originally asked about. We’re still figuring all of this out (first / only kid, and mom and I are both total Humanities people). I appreciate the insights.

If you are concerned that the CS department may be too small, you can check the catalog to see what junior/senior level courses are offered, and the schedules to see how frequently they are offered. Typical courses:

algorithms and complexity
theory of computation, languages, automata
operating systems
compilers
databases
networks
security and cryptography
software engineering
artificial intelligence
graphics
hardware courses

I’m not necessarily saying go to a LAC, but I hate seeing LACs dismissed just because they might have small CS departments. For some students, the small classes and more personalized learning environment are more important than the number of classes offered. Just because a school has lots of different classes doesn’t mean a student gets to take them all.

The problem is that if the department is too small, the curriculum is focused toward the areas of specialization of the few faculty. For many students with a broad set of interests outside CS, this would be fine. However, for a top student like this, I think it would be a mistake and the medium sized research universities would provide the more personalized learning along with sufficient breadth to allow students to get into cutting edge research.

Another one, though not midwest, would be Brandeis. This has a very good CS department with 16 faculty not including lecturers and visiting, is a research university, but has an undergraduate class of roughly 900 per class.

Of course you might put UChicago in the mix too. Their CS department is quite good especially in theory and artificial intelligence. Not an easy admit though.

^^^ My previous comment was not specifically about the OP. People seemed to be dissing LACs in general for CS, as if you should never go to one. For a lot of people, LACs are going to work better than larger schools for CS.

I hear what you’re saying, @simba9 – in fact, my original post in part reflects my deep appreciation for the liberal arts model, having gone to (and for a short time taught at) a rigorous LAC myself. To be honest, I always assumed my son would go to a similar kind of college, but his bent seems so focused on computer programming (and on problem-solving, hands-on learning) that we’ve been looking at more specialized programs and schools where he could really run with his interests.

Originally we were thinking about a place like Michigan Tech, but we’re a little worried that it would be too focused on tech at the expense of a deep/wide culture of learning. (There’s also the fact that we could drive to Nashville from our home in Michigan in less time than it would take to drive to Houghton in the Upper Peninsula!) I’m not sure if the same would be true at places like RIT, WPI, or other “tech institutes.”

We’re definitely not ruling out LACs, just still thinking about the best fit for our kid. Since he (so far) seems to have the stats to get into a really strong college, and since it seems like practically every good college in the country is rapidly approaching $70K per year (!), we’re looking at all of our options. If the net calculators are even close to accurate, it almost seems like the higher he aims, the cheaper it would be: Stanford and MIT come in at something like 1/4th as much as some of the mid-level universities I’ve checked, and maybe 1/3 of what it would cost to go to our local LAC. (Provided he could beat the enormous odds and get in.)

Anyway, thanks for all of the ideas and suggestions!