<p>We are looking for liberal arts schools with orchestras that will be challenging and rewarding (rehearsing more than twice a week, possible tours? strong musicians who might have also qualified for conservatories) I know Princeton, Yale, Lehigh, Skidmore are all good possibilities, but are there others? Thanks</p>
<p>Furman's orchestra is great. Emory's orchestra is also wonderful. We have been pleasantly surprised at how good Miami Ohio's orchestra is, but I don't think it's to the level you're speaking to.</p>
<p>I'd love to know more about Lehigh and Skidmore... I'm surprised to hear they are so strong (not saying I know anything to the contrary...just wondering).</p>
<p>Lawrence comes to mind, as does Depauw. S has a friend, former quartet partner who is a conservatory class player, very happy at Depauw.
Mercer as well, particularly the strings. Columbia has a number of conservatory class musicians studying other disciplines, as does Princeton. I can't speak for those two orchestras, as I've heard varying opinions from different sources. Ensemble play at both those institutions can be at a very high level.</p>
<p>Also, a previous similar thread here: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/400593-best-music-liberal-arts-college-program.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/400593-best-music-liberal-arts-college-program.html</a></p>
<p>St. Olaf has an exceptionally strong orchestra - 2 in fact which is very unusual for a school of 3000 students. They also have merit scholarships for musicians and you don't have to be a music major to be considered for one.</p>
<p>Even with Eastman as part of the school, the University of Rochester has a strong student orchestra for non-Eastman students. And many of the Rochester students could have gone to Eastman but wanted a more rounded education. They can audition for private lessons at Eastman (taught by grad students) at no charge.</p>
<p>Don't know about touring, though.</p>
<p>I was going to mention St. Olaf as well, but shennie beat me to it by a few minutes, so I will settle for seconding that program.</p>
<p>oberlin, although i don't know if students in the LAC are allowed to participate.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the suggestions so far, but I was hoping to avoid the schools that also have conservatory programs (St Olaf, Oberlin, Lawrence, Furman etc.) because the way we understand it, their orchestras may be quite difficult to audition for (ie, lots of competition from performance majors)</p>
<p>Look carefully at the performing organizations/ensemble descriptions detailed on the specific schools sites. It is not unusual for a school to have tiered performance organizations, one open to BM performance candidates/other music majors, a second open to the student body/faculty as a whole. I've also seen instances where it's even open to members of the local community.</p>
<p>Sometimes it takes a bit of reading deeply to find the info.</p>
<p>Pay attention to consortium opportunities where smaller schools will pool resources allowing cross registration without additional tuition... Claremont Consortium, 5 College Consortium, Worcester Consortium (Holy Cross, Worcester Polytech, Becker and a few others, although I may have the name wrong.) </p>
<p>You may be searching for a bit of an elusive animal if you're looking for a top-notch orchestra rehearsing more than twice a week with potential touring at a non conservatory type environment that is not "competitive".</p>
<p>You may want to investigate community/regional orchestras in the geographic proximity of the selected schools. Many are of high quality, and often welcome accomplished players.</p>
<p>Oberlin has several top level groups. The orchestra, the chamber orchestra, the wind ensemble and the contemporary music ensemble are indeed very difficult to get into (but not completely off limits) if you are not a performance major.</p>
<p>Other ensembles there include the College-Community Winds and the College-Community Strings, which are still decent groups led by conservatory faculty and usually include some performance majors who are getting experience on a second instrument. They generally rehearse only once or twice per week, play only two or three concerts per year and do not do much traveling, hence they are not what nycm is looking for.</p>
<p>My guess is that the top level groups at St. Olaf may be slightly easier for a very talented non-performance major to break into, although I do not have any numbers to back that up. (Can anyone with first-hand experience there tell us about how many non-performance majors are in the St. Olaf Orchestra or St Olaf Band? I would like to know in case someone else asks me.) From the information on their website, it certainly appears that St. Olaf's second level groups rehearse, perform and travel more than their counterparts at Oberlin and, from the sheer numbers involved, those groups must have some non-majors playing in them. One way or another, there may still be something of interest there.</p>
<p>One LAC that has a surprisingly good music department with non-majors in most sections of its orchestra is Susquehanna. I have known and worked with several very talented music majors who attended that school. I see that their orchestra and chorus are appearing at Carnegie Hall in March. The school is not in the same league academically as a Princeton or Yale but, then again, those are major universities and nycm did ask for LAC's. SU offers music scholarships to both majors and non-majors and may be worth a look if only as a safety.</p>
<p>I think you'll find that the orchestras at the smaller conservatory programs will be much less exclusive than Oberlin's (for example). This would include St. Olaf, Furman, and Lawrence, and even Vanderbilt, because those BM programs are simply too small to staff full string sections.
On the other hand, if your child is a wind, brass, or percussion player you'll have more difficulty even at those colleges.</p>
<p>Furman's is not a conservatory program. And they offer both a BS and a BA (They don't offer a minor, but contend that their BA is similar to most school's minor.) My D was going in as a double major with the BA, and they gave her quite a nice violin scholarship, even though she wasn't a performance major. (She ended up not going there, because she got a better offer. She also got into St. Olaf with money, as a non-major (not even a minor.) She didn't go there, either.)</p>
<p>All this to say, yes, I think Furman's (and St. Olaf's) orchestra is excellent. No, it's not a conservatory. And yes, it is easy enough for non-majors to participate.</p>
<p>You might be able to find some music/media clips on department webpages--these might aid in determining quality of various LAC orchestras. S, a singer, listened to many choral groups online and crossed off some LACs/Unis because the sound wasn't what he was looking for. (Some were not good, some very good but just not the sound he wants.) He also looked at recent repertoire and sat in on a few rehearsals but only a few.</p>
<p>Williams has a student symphony orchestra which is just okay, and it also fields the Berkshire Symphony Orchestra which is excellent. Staffed half by professionals and half by Williams' students by audition. Level of play is very good as is the repetoire.</p>
<p>The orchestra at U. of Maryland is open to the whole school. The music school is very small so there's probably quite a lot of space. Not a small LAC, but still.....</p>
<p>I guess we're using the term "conservatory" too loosely. What I meant was "schools that offer a BM," which Furman and St. Olaf do but Williams and the Ivy League schools do not.</p>
<p>Thanks, fiddlefrog, I think that's what I meant as well. I'm looking for schools that do NOT offer a BM, but which still have good orchestras that a talented young musician (in a good pre-college music program) would find rewarding. So far, I have found:
Brandeis
Cornell
Davidson
Duke
Emory
Harvard
Lehigh
Princeton
Rollins
Skidmore
Stanford
Swarthmore
Vassar
Wellsley
Williams
University of Chicago
University of Mary Washington
Yale
Miami
Pomona</p>
<p>I can't remember what instrument, nycm, so YMMV. </p>
<p>My D plays violin, and did not expect to major in music, but very much wanted a place where she would be welcome to play, and could continue lessons. We scanned websites looking for hints that all were welcome. (And ruled out those who combined their orchestra with community members - like William and Mary does. Figured they're a little too desperate.)</p>
<p>The schools she ended up applying to were Emory, Miami U of Ohio, Furman, St. Olaf, Denison, and Allegheny. I can recommend them all. We also visited Davidson, but she didn't care for the orchestra or teacher. (Adjunct faculty; wouldn't give her a trial lesson, just a few minutes meeting; knew squat about the program.)</p>
<p>We did not really differentiate between degrees offered, except to rule out places, such as Indiana, where we knew she would be competing with conservatory students. At each school she had a trial lesson and spent a long time feeling out the teacher for whether or not she would be welcome within the orchestra, etc. She did this at the lesson so they would be able to gauge her ability, and give us a sense of whether she'd fit in.</p>
<p>All these schools fit the bill. </p>
<p>Allegheny is one you might consider. We had heard bad things about the orchestra, but were pleasantly surprised to find that it was on the upswing, and they are making a concerted (sorry) effort to recruit musicians. They don't give music scholarships, but they give nice other scholarships, and in the scholarship letter, they mentioned her music and "encouraged" her to continue with it as an EC. I'm sure it helped get her the scholarship.</p>
<p>D absolutely loved the Denison program. (They offer a performance degree among others, but they are definitely NOT conservatory level. D was applying as a double major there.) That was probably one of her favorite teachers.</p>
<p>As I said, Furman welcomed her as a BA (like a minor), and gave her a $10k scholarship for music. St. Olaf also gave her a scholarship ($7,500) as a non-major. So even though they are top quality programs, they obviously welcome everybody. In fact, I remember St. Olaf's website reporting a huge percentage of their students being involved in the music programs somehow, regardless of major. </p>
<p>I guess what I'm trying to say is, even as a non-major, there is a lot of value in visiting, meeting teachers, looking at the options. Don't get too hung up on the type of degrees offered. </p>
<p>By the way, if Davidson's orchestra meets your desired level of quality, you would be blown away by Miami U of Ohio. (Just a plug.)</p>
<p>UC Berkeley has a good orchestra (and fantastic academic music program) -- better than Stanford, which is only so so; San Francisco Symphony Youth Orchestra is first rate and includes college students -- by audition; it tours, including Europe's finest venues (Concertgebouw, Musikverein, Theatre de Champs Elysees, etc.). It is easily accessible from Berkeley; not so easily from Stanford, but it is not impossible.
Columbia's orchestra is not much fun, from what I gather.</p>