<p>We had the same hunt for DD...who wanted a good orchestra and lessons but also a good LAC type of school. I have to say, she didn't find any orchestral program at the schools to be terrific. BUT she is happy where she is. I have to wonder about the instrument this OP's child plays. I would guess there may be more "opportunities" to play in the higher level orchestras on tuba than on flute. Our experience (in looking) was that schools that had any kind of music program tended to have better orchestras (you need good strings!!). Also, why the criteria for more rehearsals and touring. Fiddlefrog will correct me, but I believe the BU symphony (music majors only) only rehearses three times weekly and not every piece is rehearsed all three times. And that orchestra seldom tours...in fact LOTS of orchestras at major music programs do not regularly tour.</p>
<p>Thanks thumper, my request for multiple the rehearsals and possible tours are not requirements, but I think it does indicate something about the level and committment. Friends' kids are used to youth orchestra experiences, and schools orchestras and don't want to give that up. My view is that a college ensemble that rehearses only once a week is not going to be very challenging. As for tours...well, a lot of schools do manage to send their orchestras off, at least every other year, and that's usually a nice motivator as well.</p>
<p>As a current student at St. Olaf, I'm in a position to give a few more details about their orchestra. As a preface, I should say that St. Olaf's music department is incredibly open to non-majors participating in ensembles and taking lessons. The St. Olaf Orchestra is the top orchestra of two (the other being the Philharmonia). I don't have exact numbers on me, but at least a third of the orchestra are non-music majors. And of the music majors, the majority are not performance majors. (There are actually a small number of instrumental performance majors in the school as a whole - probably 4-6 violinists and cellists and 0-2 in the other instruments. Most music majors are doing a general BA degree, often with another major.) The performance level is quite strong - this year the orchestra is performing Bernstein's West Side Story Symphonic Dances, Ravel's La Valse, and Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra, among others.</p>
<p>The orchestra rehearses three times a week and performs 3-4 concerts a year on campus, in addition to a concerto concert and concerts with the choirs. It tours a region of the US each year, in addition to occasional international tours. This May, the orchestra will be touring Spain. (I'm going with them as pianist and am excited to see continental Europe for the first time.) All in all, St. Olaf is an excellent choice for a talented musician who doesn't want to pursue a career in music but still wants a challenging, quality musical experience.</p>
<p>I hope this helps.</p>
<p>Thumper, you're right on the money.
But I doubt you'd find many conservatory orchestras that rehearse more than 7-8 hours a week, and if they do than they only rehearse immediately before concerts rather than continuously throughout the semester.</p>
<p>Thanks much, bachlover. I know the music program is great there.</p>
<p>I've got to agree with thumper and fiddlefrog... my son's experience at Hartt was that it was rare that orchestral rehearsals topped the 7-8 hrs/per week mark. </p>
<p>bachlover, thanks. That's a great overview of the St. Olaf experience. BTW, Cosmos is an accomplished double bassist at UChicago, perhaps she'll chime in with a similar overview from her experience there. Of the schools listed, the premier group there is in all probability Yale, an institution filled with many conservatory level students pursuing non-music undergrad degrees. </p>
<p>nycm- a point or two to consider. A serious musician in a high quality precollege experience combining hs orchestra, youth symphony, private lessons may be disappointed musically at some of the institutions listed. It's often easier for a serious musician to play up to the level of their peers in a reach experience than down to a lower level in an organization of lesser quality or ability. Son has two former quartet partners (both cellists) at Columbia and Cornell. Both are conservatory level, pursuing non-music degrees. They have been able to engage in high level ensemble play, but each has found the orchestral experience less than expected. Just my experience and opinion for what it's worth.</p>
<p>binx and thumper have the best parent's perspective, each having gone through this with kids at the conservatory and serious amateur level. bachlover's personal experience at St. Olaf is a great take from a current student, and probably the best perspective possible.</p>
<p>binx commented on orchestras open to the community as potentially being "desperate". A valid point, but there's no reason (other than transportation or proximity) for a college undergrad not examining the possibilities of a high level orchestra outside of the university/college experience. The Washington-Boston corridor, Cleveland, Cincy, Chicago areas and other parts of the country have many fine amateur orchestras comprised of music students (hs,undergrad and grad), current instructors and college professors, retired pros and serious amateurs. Depending on the area your s ends up in, don't discount this option.</p>
<p>To be more specific about Williams, violadad is right about S's experience in the student orchestra. It is a bit lackluster. However, this is because of the students running it, not the level of the players. S was a serious musician, did elite summer programs and won music awards. He is second chair in second violin section to give idea of the level of play. And these are the kids who did not make the Berkshire Symphony Orchestra, although the auditioner did you, "You are not quite ready yet." The Berkshire Symphony Orchestra is open to any student, as is the student orchestra. S's violin teachers, who are certainly at a professional level, play in it. It's a good goal for a non-conservatory kid, and since half the personnel of the orchestra are Williams' students it's not a case of one token student to boost the school's offerings.</p>
<p>I am not sure if S is going to work hard enough to be accepted into it because he also sings in the choir, which he has also done since he was 4. He says he can't face giving this up, which he would have to do to make all Berkshire's rehearsals.</p>
<p>So, I don't think there's a ceiling on the opportunities at Williams, unless you're like my son and want to do everything without picking central focus. Sigh. Always his problem. He's in a production of The Tempest too. And looking to play piano in chamber groups. Oh yeah, there's that little thing about grades. He wants to be a doctor!</p>
<p>DD is enrolled as a non-music major at a very highly ranked school in California (masters level small university). They are very welcoming of non-majors for the very simple reason that they would NEVER be able to fill a full orchestra with their music majors only. The school has a VERY small music department. DD was a state ranked player in high school, and participated (and toured) with both a youth orchestra and choir. She, however, does music because she loves it. And she plays the oboe and English horn (and owns professional quality instruments...some colleges don't even OWN an English horn). Now...having said all of that, she sat in on lessons and orchestra rehearsals at ALL of her top choice schools. For her, the academic selection was a higher priority, but the music had to be there. She had to deal with a "compromise" situation with the orchestra. The school she is at has a great orchestra director, but moreso, she LOVES her private oboe teacher there, and the school also encourages private lessons at no additional cost to the students. DD tells me that the orchestra is "less than fantastic" but they do play some challenging pieces and by concert time, they actually do a fine job. They rehearse twice weekly for 2 1/2 hours each rehearsal (but not every piece is rehearsed each time).</p>
<p>Re: rehearsal time...I agree with Fiddlefrog. DS is in a conservatory environment now. At first he was a bit flummoxed regarding the lack of weekly orchestra rehearsals. BUT he quickly learned that the intense rehearsals just prior to the concerts was the school's MO. And it works. </p>
<p>Neither of my kids have ever "toured" with a college ensemble. I'm not sure it shows the "quality" of the orchestra. It DOES show the ability to finance such a venture. It is VERY expensive to tour an orchestra (need to rent some instruments, insurance issues, etc). When our kids toured with Youth Orchestra, EACH CHILD paid for their trips.</p>
<p>
[quote]
is in a conservatory environment now. At first he was a bit flummoxed regarding the lack of weekly orchestra rehearsals. BUT he quickly learned that the intense rehearsals just prior to the concerts was the school's MO. And it works.
[/quote]
In my H's experience (he went to Juilliard), this is the norm - the higher the level of musicianship, the fewer rehearsals together. It is expected that you come to rehearsals knowing your part absolutely cold, and understanding how to follow a conductor. The purpose of the rehearsals is not to learn the music but to allow the conductor to put it all together and to set the tone and nuances for the piece. And as you become more familiar with the conductor and his/her style, you are more able to anticipate the nuances when you practice on your own. My h (non-professional) now plays with some semi-professional orchestras that rehearse 3 times only before a concert; they can't afford to pay the professionals to rehearse more than that.</p>
<p>I'd still like to put in a plug for University of Rochester. Their orchestra is filled with non-music majors who could have gone to Eastman but sought a different path. They are premeds, engineers, history and English majors who want to keep playing at a high level. Some will double-major in Rochester's BA music major to continue with theory and performance; many don't. Some will be able to continue private music lessons with Eastman graduate students at no cost. The music abounds on the River (non-Eastman) campus at a very high level.</p>
<p>We examined this option (high level orchestra/musical opportunties, within a high ranking university/LAC) exhaustively; traveled to many schools, listened to many different ensembles, etc., spoke with directors. What we witnessed and learned was similar to what we had been told by students who had played at a similar level in high school, with pre-college conservatory prep, all-state, music camps, etc., and it is as Violadad described..."less than expected", or often disappointing. I am sure there are some fine non-conservatory high level music programs in LACs or universities; we just didn't find them.</p>
<p>Therefore, my S is thus going the conservatory route...and we're three for three thus far on invites from pre-screenings for auditions! Woot!!! (still waiting on two more) He will be giving up the top notch academics I would have liked for him, in favor of the top notch music. </p>
<p>It really depends on what a student is seeking. I can completely understand how some would prefer the focus to be on academics and are hoping to find the best possible music program in a university setting. But for the student entirely focused on the best music program, it certainly isn't found at the best universities, including Harvard!</p>
<p>memake,
D's housemate was in engineering program at Lehigh and played in the orchestra (idk the instrument). She is now in a graduate music program in Boston (idk which school).</p>
<p>Daughter of friend found lots of places to play viola while at Smith and is now at NEC grad school (and loves it--another perspective on NEC!). Amherst seems to have a hopping music scene.</p>
<p>Oh...a thought. We had a friend who was a viola player at Haverford. Apparently there is a consortium orchestra (maybe at Swat??). He loved it.</p>
<p>Thumper- a quickie from wiki: Tri-College</a> Consortium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>
<p>regarding rehearsal time, thumper,fiddlefrog and chedva are all correct that top level conservatory musicians don't need lots of rehearsal time for ensembles because the musicans are also spending lots of practice time on their own preparing, but in the case of liberal arts majors, sometimes the orchestra rehearsals are the only times musicans on campus get together, so having more than one rehearsal a week is important.
I really appreciate all the great suggestions! Thanks to everyone</p>
<p>I should amend my comment: when I said Amherst has a hopping music scene, i didn't mean Amherst College but the 5-college consortium. Just in case.</p>
<p>FWIW: D's orchestra at Miami-OH meets MWF 2-3:30. It's pretty consistent. If there are two orchestras preparing at the same time (such as concert and opera), they just meet in different places. They occasionally may call for additional or extended rehearsals, and are expected to put in extra time in private practice, at lessons, and in department (eg. strings or brass) seminars.</p>
<p>S's schedule at Juilliard calls for orchestra M/Th 9-12:15. However, the orchestra staffing changes with each concert, so if he's not in the upcoming concert, he doesn't have rehearsal. And if he is in it, they are apt to change the orchestra rehearsals to all over the board, at the whim of the conductor, so I'm not sure why they even put it on the schedule!</p>
<p>D also plays in a string quintet. The other violinist in the group is not a major, and did not have room in his schedule this past semester for orchestra. And I think the violist is a minor. So there are other ops for musicians to get involved.</p>
<p>Something else for the OP to consider when looking at schools. If your student wants to take private lessons, be sure to ask about the arrangements for non-majors. At Miami-OH, I believe they told us it was $80 for the entire semester - a paltry sum! At Emory, though, I think it was $80 per lesson! (We had already decided that if she went to Emory, she would continue with her current $60/hour symphony-member teacher.) At St. Olaf, she would also have had to pay a fair amount. And at some schools, non majors take from different teachers than majors - usually someone lower on the totem pole - perhaps adjunct, or a TA.</p>
<p>Thanks, Binx, for all the information about the costs! That can really add up. I know some schools (Princeton) are fairly generous in paying for lessons IF the student is a member of the orchestra, but I suppose this is a case where it will be very helpful to know the rules in advance!</p>
<p>Re Oberlin: My son is a current sophmore and plays viola. He is not a music major. He didn't want the committment of playing in the conservatory orchestra even if he had made it in (not likely) so he never tried out. The only other option for him was community strings which he did for one semester but was disappointed in the strings only aspect. He says there is a group trying to get together a full community type orchestra for non-majors, but I don't know the status of that.</p>
<p>When son was looking, his dad took him to visit St. Olaf. They came home with a CD from the top orchestra. I was very impressed. They weren't quite at the level of a top conservatory orchestra, but pretty darn close. </p>
<p>And I know lots of kids from our youth orchestra who are disappointed by their orchestra experiences at LACs so if it is really important to you, try to attend a rehearsal when you visit to get an idea of how they play.</p>
<p>Because of the small size of liberal arts colleges, the number of top level musicians is bound to be limited (Oberlin, with a conservatory, is an obvious exception, and a consortium would also be a different story -- e.g. the Amherst consortium); at bigger schools, especially in the coastal states, where there are lots of students who studied instruments for years and were in youth orchestras in high school, there is a large number of musicians from all majors. The UC's are filled with talented violinists and cellists, for example, so their orchestras are uniformly quite good. The UC Berkeley orchestra rehearses twice a week and has several concerts a year; UC Davis also has a decent orchestra; UCLA and UCSB similarly have good ensemble opportunities.<br>
Columbia pays for lessons, even for nonmajors, from a list of adjuncts and for students who are in the Columbia/Juilliard program.<br>
Princeton also pays for lessons from a list of adjuncts.
Harvard awards some money for lessons on a need-based basis to musicians; there is a $6,000 additional fee for students in the Harvard/NEC program.
Yale lessons are generally from graduate students in the Yale School of Music, for a fee that is not unreasonable.</p>