Strong Physics programs at non-elite schools

College Search & Selection
21

I will address the issues of “which college” when I have a free moment, but if this is an issue, I strongly, strongly, strongly suggest you reconsider the plan for a career in academia, or at the barest minimum come up with a Plan B.

  • The life of a physics professor is not hanging out in the faculty lounge in a tweed jacket smoking a pipe. It is a constant hustle for resources: funding, telescope time, whatever. Anxiety issues do not help.
  • Only a small fraction of physics PhDs get academic position. He will be competing with people who are getting into the schools now that you think he won’t be able to get into. The competition gets worse with time, not better. This will not help with anxiety.
  • Sometimes things just happen. The night you get telescope time, it rains. The accelerator explodes and takes a year to repair. You just got scooped on the paper you’ve been working on for a year. Your postdoc - the one person who can make the laser (fridge, whatever) work has just gone on family leave.

Severe anxiety is a terrible thing to add to this mix.

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22

Strong Physics background is good. It cannot be the case that it doesn’t matter where he goes. Clearly if he goes to MIT it matters. Or to the local community college :-).

And it is not about being snobbish. Standards are different between the top schools and the not so top. For example, if you are looking to a semester abroad or something Princeton doesn’t really like to accept credit unless it is from UTokyo, Cambridge and maybe one or two schools abroad. Within the US it likes course transfers from MIT, Caltech, Harvard, and may be a very small handful of other places.

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23

Academia is very snobbish, at the PhD level. But to get into a top PhD pro, they cast a wide net. Purdue will not be a limiting factor to any PhD program. However, I think it is important to think of what happens if he changes his mind. This is very likely. The percentage of people that actually make it to academia in Physics that have that as a goal in HS is likely very low.

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24

And here is a sobering note that I feel compelled to add. I have many close friends that are in academia in various fields. One of them was recently telling me that in order to get a faculty position in Physics at a good research university, these days, someone has to pass or retire. New slots are not opening up.

And academia has become very political. In order to get hired, you will need to fill some micro bucket.

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25

Assume you are meaning a tenure track position? The lack of TT positions is true in just about every discipline (maybe CS is an exception?).

Putting more pressure on the situation, is that ~70%-75% of college instructor positions are not tenured/TT…so the prospects are indeed bleak.

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26

Was talking to a dad PM the other day. Hispanic. His son was offered a fly in to Lehigh. You might reach out to them and ask about their program. We’ll your son should. Are you on their interest list ?

I think schools that have fly ins - you might find (or not) will be generous with a different ethnic group they are trying to attract.

Your hubby is right (imho) - no where is worth $80k. But it might be a school like Lehigh wants and needs you and $80k is $40k or less.

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27

Yes…but by their own criteria! to go into teaching Physics at university level, the overall fame of your UG uni is unimportant. Yes, obvs, MIT always gets an extra blink- but if you look at the prof CVs at MIT you will see that 1) most list only their PG unis, and 2) of those who list UG there is everything from UCSD to Swat. Where you got your PhD? very important. Who you have studied or worked with? very very important. The interest in your area of research? very very very important.

Having a child whose goal is teaching physics at university level is (in parent terms) like having a child whose goal is making a living as a professional artist or being a professional athlete. It happens- people do it- but it is a very narrow path, and even most of the people who ‘succeed’ barely get by. Happily, aiming for research is a more promising path.

But: these are very very early days. The boy in front of you today is going to morph almost unrecognizably over the next year, and as much again over the subsequent few years. What he needs most is to have his feet solidly under him. He will need to be looking at summer and in-term research internships by Thanksgiving of his first year. As noted upthread- physics departments at even the largest of universities are their own world (I think they have a sense of themselves as a de facto honors college!). Build from the inside out.

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28

How about William and Mary? It’s east coast and mid-sized with a very good physics program. It looks like an admissions match too. Another benefit is that is is close to the Jefferson Lab and the students can intern there.

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29

W&M is a great program, and they are super about research opps from Day 1. I do not think that it is a better program than the OPs in-state options. So, the question for the OP is whether an OOS adventure is worth $40,000 debt (~$60K OOS less the ~$50K w/o debt the OP has said they can manage times 4 years).

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30

Well, I’m pretty sure he hasn’t considered and isn’t aware of any of this. Or what others have also commented on. All very valid points.

I work at a university in a staff position in a department with faculty. To be blunt, many of them are snobby and condescending and there is little sense of community within that department. Other departments at our university are wonderful and their faculty have a better sense of camaraderie and actually socialize. Ours is so divisive. The undergrad and grad department in particular is competitive with one another. So while I don’t understand the politics, I do understand there’s a lot that goes on in academia beyond one’s control.

Anyway, at one point sophomore year, my son talked about wanting to be a high school teacher bc he was inspired by his math teacher at the time. He thought he was the smartest, coolest guy. He always came home sharing a different story from class that his teacher had said or done. So the possibility is there that he could be happy following that kind of track. Although when I have mentioned this recently (because one of the lac’s had a physics teaching major) he said no way, he wasn’t interested in high school teaching.

Anyway, he’ll have to figure this out. I’m just trying to suggest some options so he’s not terribly disappointed in the outcome and we’re not shelling out as much as we need to for mid-level schools.

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31

Lehigh has invited him to their fly in program and just extended their deadline. It also coincides with his fall break. To me it’s a no-brainer. I have been very interested in checking them out. I also have an old friend who attended Lehigh and works at NASA. I think of them highly so I don’t understand why my husband and son are so against it.

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32

Yes, this would be a good one! Good location too! And I think my husband would support this one. Hopefully my son too. Thanks!

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33

I would definitely try to visit Lehigh. It shows well to many HS students, and with good reason. Maybe have him do a virtual admissions session first, if he hasn’t already?

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34

If interested, you can see here where Apker (the nation’s top award for undergraduate research in physics) recipients attended: LeRoy Apker Award - Wikipedia.

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35

Ohio State offers Physics or Engineering Physics. https://physics.osu.edu/physics-programs-0

I’d suggest applying as an engineering physics pre major by the Early Action deadline (materials need to be received before the deadline), he should be offered honors admission which would allow him to schedule 1281H which can be used to meet pre-reqs for some additional physics courses.

Engineering physics pre-majors are grouped together for their university survey class (first semester course that introduces them to university procedures, academic resources, etc.) and he’d also be working on team projects in 1281H Engineering Fundamentals. If he decides not to pursue Engineering Physics he’d still have expanded the number of Physics and Computer Science classes available to schedule and hopefully would have made some friends.

The university has just revamped their general education requirements to standardize them across colleges, so switching over from CoE to Arts and Sciences should be smooth.

If he struggles with anxiety I’d be sure he was able to access his providers via telehealth or utilize Nationwide Children’s Hospital (provided care up to 21yo last time we used them) and get him set up before he has an emergency. The university has some resources, but seem stretched thin.

Also, apply for Eminence/Morrill scholarships Merit-based scholarships - The Ohio State University

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36

If they’re flying you in, they’re going to come with $$.

If it’s not his kind of school, I get it.

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37

According to Lehigh’s CDS they gave 80 of the 814 with no financial need merit money. The average average award was $16,367.

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38

Your son will get strong consideration at the top schools. These places have plenty of money, so it is unlikely you will end up paying more than at a state school - and perhaps less. My advice is to use every opportunity to see campuses and determine which is the best fit for him. Applying early can increase chances and eliminate the work and stress of the regular admissions process. Best of luck,

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39

Could be. I’m Assuming based on we’ll, they’re flying u in. Thx for the research. Still could br one of the 80.

In the end there’s lots of reasonably priced schools large, medium, and small. . Hope he finds one.

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40

OK, so now which school. First the lay of the land:

There are 160 or so schools offering a PhD in physics. Half of all PhDs come from about a dozen to fifteen schools: Princeton, MIT, Harvard, etc. They are excellent, but also, they are big.

The remaining 140-or-so schools are, with few exceptions, excellent. They are a mix of state flagships (15 is less than 50, and we can’t all be Illinois and Michigan) like Ole Miss, non-state flagships like UC Irvine, Kent State, Northern Illinois. and a few private schools, like Rice. ASny of these would position your son at a level at, near or possibly exceeding the big 15.

Then there are 4-year colleges. Some do very, very well in preparing students for grad school in physics: Reed, Harvey Mudd. Others do too, but are less well known. You should ask every place on your short list “How many of your students in the past 5 years went on to graduate school, and where?”

One of the problems you are going to face is a lot of great physics schools are in the midwest: Illinois, Wisconsin, Chicago, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan State, Minnesota, Northwestern, Ohio State, and maybe half a notch down would be Iowa, Indiana, Kansas, Iowa State, Kansas State, Nebraska, and among 4-years, Creighton is quite strong.

The other problem is that these “non-elite” schools are still pretty competitive, especially if you are out-of-state. Good schools are good schools, and while it might be easier to get into Michigan State than Harvard, it’s not hugely easier. Especially if physics is a capacity-controlled major.

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