Strong Physics programs at non-elite schools

[helpingthekid73]

My S is similar to yours in terms of stats and unknown major, not very outgoing and he decided that a small LAC would be the best for him. We have toured a few and the kids seem very open, the classes are all small and the kids in the stem programs were all doing research programs both during the year and the summer. Any way you could talk him into a visit? There were many athletes but lots of musicians and nerd too.

[AustenNut]

You may want to share the link that @merc81 provided with your family, as a lot of the students winning the top physics awards attended liberal arts colleges. When you don’t have to compete with grad students for research opportunities, there can be a lot more opportunities.

Any school that has offered a fly-in, I would take a serious look at. At the very least, run the Net Price Calculator (NPC) and see whether it offers any merit aid. I feel as though an invite to a fly-in is kind of like a “likely letter.” You’re likely to get in, and likely to get money.

With such amazing in-state options as IU and Purdue, I’d have a real hard time justifying an out-of-state public flagship experience if the price was going to be much higher than the price at IU or Purdue.

These are a couple of resources that may be helpful in brainstorming college possibilities:

Best Colleges for Physics

Top Feeders to Ph.D. Programs (this link will take you to the top physics PhD feeders)

Some schools from those lists that your son may want to consider are:

• U. of Arizona: Your son would get very significant merit aid here…probably likely to be less than your in-state publics or not far in price
• Brandeis (MA)
• Case Western (OH)…yes, it’s still considered midwest, but if it was about an hour east, it’d be considered east coast.
• Franklin & Marshall (PA ): The residential college system (think a bit like the Hogwarts houses) might be a really nice way to build a social network for your son…but it may be too small/liberal arts college for your spouse and son.
• Illinois Institute of Technology: Unless you’re in Indy or the region, being in a big major metro could be a nice change of pace while still staying relatively close-by if any medical issues arisse.
• Lawrence (WI)…yes, another midwestern school, but it’s out-of-state and has a really good reputation for physics, and it would be highly likely for acceptance
• New Mexico Institute of Mining & Technology: Not a liberal arts college, but would have a very intimate environment
• Rensselaer Polytechnic (NY)
• Rochester Institute of Technology (NY)
• Rose-Hulman (IN): I know, not only is this in the midwest, but it’s in-state! But that means that your health insurance should definitely have coverage in the area, it’s a completely different type of experience from Purdue/IU, its focus is entirely on undergrads, and should the need arise, this should be easy to get to (or get home)
• U. of Rochester (NY)
• Wesleyan (CT)

[groundhog74]

I was going to suggest University of Rochester as well. My math, possible physics minor, kid had it on his list. He is at Haverford and really likes it, but you said no LACs.

[tsbna44]

F&M no merit aid. But fine school. As always your lists are great.

[neela1]

@MITPhysicsAlum

One of the problems you are going to face is a lot of great physics schools are in the midwest: Illinois, Wisconsin, Chicago, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan State, Minnesota, Northwestern, Ohio State, and maybe half a notch down would be Iowa, Indiana, Kansas, Iowa State, Kansas State, Nebraska, and among 4-years, Creighton is quite strong.

Part of the reason is that the funding is evenly distributed across many states because of political reasons. Every Senator wants his state flagship to get NSF funding and defence funding etc. Post WWII a lot of the flagship state public get a lot of funding.

[MITPhysicsAlum]

@neela1

Part of the reason is that the funding is evenly distributed across many states because of political reasons.

It is not. I know, because I was a rotator in a funding agency. Massachusetts, per capita, has 11.6x the NSF funding per capita as Kentucky. If you include territories, DC has 137x the funding per capita as Guam.

The numbers are similar for other agencies - NSF is just the easiest for me to find.

Indeed, the highest midwest state is Indiana, at #14. The lowest is Kansas, at #36 with about a factor of 2 between them.

[thumper1]

@DadOfJerseyGirl

Great advice. He definitely needs safeties - east coast, or anywhere.

He has safety schools in the publics in his home state. If this student is happy with those schools as options, then I don’t see any reason to add more safety schools.

I guess my question is….why the east coast? Does he think physics is more demanding if geographically located on the east coast?

[MITPhysicsAlum]

@thumper1

.why the east coast?

According to the OP, that’s the parent’s idea.

[quote=“thumper1, post:47, topic:3618956”]
Does he think physics is more demanding if geographically located on the east coast?[/quote]

Because Stanford, Berkeley, and in fact Washington are a walk in the park.

[ucbalumnus]

@MITPhysicsAlum

Especially if physics is a capacity-controlled major.

Is physics that often a capacity-controlled major? The impression I get is that it is commonly a less popular major.

[MITPhysicsAlum]

@ucbalumnus

Is physics that often a capacity-controlled major?

Depends on the place. The ability of a department to handle a zillion students in the introductory sequence doesn’t mean they can handle a zillion students in upper division classes - especially labs.

There’s also tactics - physics can be a popular destination major for students who transfer out of engineering, and this can be part of a plan to have a place for them to land.

[Bill_Marsh]

@2CollegeHoosiers

Thanks for Rochester, I’ll look into it.

I really cannot convince him to look at LACs. I have done a lot of research into them and have even looked at a few lists of top lacs for physics but I don’t think he’ll budge. Especially since my husband is backing him up on this one.

Rochester is not an LAC. It is a major research university, bigger than Lehigh, for example, which you seem to be considering.

[Bill_Marsh]

[quote=“collegemom3717, post:12, topic:3618956, full:true”]

@Eeyore123

I’m a big fan of URochester- but it’s CoA is $75K+. Even with merit, it’s hard to see why it’s a better option than Purdue, or why being on the East Coast is worth that much more. A lot of students want to go away- but lots of us want things that don’t make sense financially. I’m with @fiftyfifty1:

You’re correct about CIA at Rochester, but 58% of students without need receive merit scholarships there, so cost would likely be a lot less. And it’s not like Purdue would be free.

I think that Rochester is a great recommendation because it is the rare case of an exceptionally well resourced, top research university which is not exceptionally competitive for admissions. UR accepted 41% of their applicants last year, and 24% of those were international students. Given that international students typically have a significantly lower rate of acceptance, it is likely that the rate of acceptance for domestic applicants is actually higher than 41%. For this student, that makes UR begin to look like a great match, even approaching a safety.

But even more significant is the fact that this students credentials make him a very strong candidate for a merit scholarship at UR. Given their relatively high acceptance rate, he should really stand out in the applicant pool.

What makes Rochester a better option than Purdue is not its East Coast location but is it’s size and accessibility of resources. The student:faculty ratio at UR is 9:1 while at Purdue it’s 14:1. Large lecture halls are rare at UR with only 8% of their classes having over 50 students while at Purdue 20% of the classes are over 50. And small classes are common at UR with 80% of the classes having fewer than 20 students while at Purdue that same size is available in only 38% of the classes.

In 2021, UR reported an endowment of $3.7 billion, only slightly larger than Purdue’s $3.6 billion endowment in the same year. But Purdue’s resources are spread among 42,000 full time graduate and undergraduate students while UR’s resources meet the needs of only 10,000 full time undergraduate and graduate students.

[collegemom3717]

Relevant & fair points, @Bill_Marsh! Also, CDS says that the average ‘non-need’ based aid is ~$25K, which would put URochester just about in the OP’s preferred range.

[JustLookingAround]

William and Mary, alma mater of the nation, is a heavy research school that is very inclusive of undergrads. Jefferson Lab (Major groundbreaking Physics research) is 20 minutes away and there is a lot of receiprocity. https://www.jlab.org/

My son was very technical --very interested in research and we almost missed this school. It’s been very very good!

[2CollegeHoosiers]

What you say about the likelihood of changing his mind is a very valid point and something we have considered. He can be very opinionated and impulsive. This whole college search and application process with him has been like wrangling a bunch of feral cats. I don’t think he quite understands the enormity of the money involved and the need to have affordable back-ups in his desired area. And he wants to do it all himself but doesn’t do a lot good research. I think he mainly chooses schools from the rankings lists and by geography—I’m the one continually bringing him back to physics and math, asking, but is this going to be the place for that?

[2CollegeHoosiers]

@neela1

So you can think about which of the OOS publics to take seriously, if at all – say UT Austin, UIUC, UMich, UCLA, UMD CP. Some of these are still quite expensive.

Thanks for this info. He is applying to Michigan but we are aware of how selective and unpredictable they are. They have denied admission to students we know with perfect test scores.

UMD is a good suggestion as someone else mentioned. Texas schools are off his list for many reasons, many political, and I’m ok with that.

[2CollegeHoosiers]

@neela1

I have many close friends that are in academia in various fields. One of them was recently telling me that in order to get a faculty position in Physics at a good research university, these days, someone has to pass or retire. New slots are not opening up.

That’s definitely disheartening. I would guess that he’ll switch directions once in undergrad. I could be wrong, but he can be fickle and tends to have a lot of interests. So it wouldn’t surprise me.

[2CollegeHoosiers]

@merc81

If interested, you can see here where Apker (the nation’s top award for undergraduate research in physics) recipients attended: LeRoy Apker Award - Wikipedia .

I was asking one of my physics friends who no longer works in anything physics related if there was some kind of measure I could use for physics specifically. They didn’t know. This is what I had in mind. Thank you!

[2CollegeHoosiers]

@BuckeyeMWDSG

Also, apply for Eminence/Morrill scholarships Merit-based scholarships - The Ohio State University

Thank you, good suggestion. It’s a huge school and in the Midwest. But my nephew highly considered it and he was accepted into their honors program and was offered the Morrill Scholarship. He said the honors program made it feel like a small school within the larger school. Ultimately he chose to attend a different university (top 20) at a much higher price. The Morrill would have made attending almost free from what I understood. I thought they were insane for making that decision, but now here we are probably going to be faced with similar choices.

[2CollegeHoosiers]

@AustenNut

With such amazing in-state options as IU and Purdue, I’d have a real hard time justifying an out-of-state public flagship experience if the price was going to be much higher than the price at IU or Purdue.

I used to say the same thing a few years ago before my kids were in high school and then realized there were a lot of other factors to consider in selecting a college than major/ Academics and price. My older son is at college that is $10,000 more a year than our state schools but a much better fit for him in every way I can think of. When mental health and social issues started to play a part into the college search, fit became more important. So my son’s search for the “best” physics programs don’t really appeal to me. I’d like to make him happy by finding where he’ll thrive personally and academically.

That being said, I saw Wesleyan come up on another list and sounds like they have a fabulous physics program. Rose Hulman is well known around here but pretty narrow in the degrees it offers. So if he changes his mind, options are limited. But it’s a gem of a school. Case Western would work possibly. It’s about 5 hours from us. Definitely lots of good options on these lists.