Struggling at dream school, change majors?

Parents Forum
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<p>Your son may have a hard path in front of him, but if he REALLY wants to go to medical school, there are things he can do, besides getting better grades, that will help. He should limit his extra curriculars to a few (maybe 1 or 2) that he can be deeply, and meaningfully, involved in. If they are medically or service related, all the better. As someone else suggested, he should begin shadowing doctors to see if he really wants to be a doctor and to get exposure to the medical field. He may have to get a graduate degree (probably “just” a masters) to rehabilitate his undergraduate record.</p>

<p>If he brings his grades up dramatically as a sophomore and keeps them there, his freshman struggles will be discounted by the med schools. But if he continues to struggle, he should start looking at alternate career paths.</p>

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<p>While contemplating alternatives in case med school doesn’t work out (something that I think ALL pre-meds should do), your son might want to ask himself exactly what it is about a medical career that appeals to him.</p>

<p>Is it the science? Is it the opportunity to help people? Is it being an independent professional? Is it working in a health care environment? </p>

<p>A yes answer to any of these questions suggests different possible alternative career paths. </p>

<p>For example, the person who likes the idea of being an independent professional might want to consider preparing for a career as a certified public accountant.</p>

<p>The person who finds the idea of helping people appealing might be interested in a career in social work.</p>

<p>The person who wants to work in a health care environment might want to become a pharmacist. </p>

<p>The person who likes science might want to prepare to be a science teacher.</p>

<p>And each of these people would probably be appalled by the others’ choices.</p>

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<p>The good news for the OP’s son is that the intellectual demands of o chem, though quite high, tend to be different from the demands of first-year chem.</p>

<p>Does your son recognize patterns easily, mtlakes? Does he have good three-dimensional visualization and the ability to convert 2-D diagrams to 3-D? Does he memorize easily? Does he have a knack for languages? Is he attentive to detail? (For example, in those “Spot the Differences” pairs of pictures in the paper or magazines, does he find all of the differences quickly?) The more questions to which the answer is “yes,” the better his odds in o chem.</p>

<p>A comment that I have made to honors students over the years is this: In calculus and physics, once you have understood the concepts, you are practically done with the work you need to do. (If other posters disagree, then we have different definitions of “understand.” I elaborate on this point for the students, but it’s kind of a long discussion.)</p>

<p>In organic chemistry, once you have understood the concepts, you have a very long way still to go. You need to acquire flexibility in applying the ideas, and watch out carefully for the conditions that make one reaction or set of reagents applicable, and another not applicable.</p>

<p>It is useful in o chem to think from the start about the synthetic applications of each reaction that you learn. A lot of o chem texts are organized by functional groups (e.g., reactions of alcohols, reactions of carboxylic acids, etc.). It is useful to also organize your brain’s database by the transformations that particular reactions accomplish.</p>

<p>This does take a lot of time. Also, the curves can be pretty harsh when a class is full of smart pre-meds.</p>

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<p>I think a lot of good advice has been given. While I would not want to pile on harsh comments, and I think you have done the math regarding GPA, I did want to add a thought as to when do people throw in the towel. A lot of people throw in the towel after the first below the mean grade in chem, bio or physics. In a big university, compare how many students take gen chem to how many take organic - goes way down. Do people become doctors after getting a C or C+ in a core science - yes, but it is way harder that way. It is not a good reason to take a course because your buddies will be in it and you can study with them, unless they are great tutors and can help you get a great grade.</p>

<p>A few years back at my college reunion, the Dean of Arts and Sciences, who is a Physicist by training, said if you don’t have a good GPA in your major that you should switch to something you are good at. One educated man’s opinion.</p>

<p>People follow all kinds of tracks to med school as noted above. There are post bac programs where you can try to boost a low GPA with good science grades, but some of these require well over a 3.0 for admission. People can go to DO school or foreign med school if they can’t get into other programs if it is a dream that they do not want to give up.</p>

<p>I kind of banged my head against the wall during my undergrad years. I never liked being the small fish in the big pond. I probably should have found an easier major - it would have been less frustrating. However, the truth is, after all these years, I still read books about government and history for fun, which is what I studied in college. Some people want to study what they like, even if the grades aren’t as high as they might be in another field.</p>

<p>Best of luck.</p>

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<p>JHS, thank you for this. My D at a top 10 LAC decided to drop pre-med after a freshman year where her worst grades were in chemistry (worse than math or foreign language, where she got some type of Bs). She got a C+ in Gen Chem I and a C in Orgo I (at her school, you can take Orgo I after Chem I) and told me she just couldn’t face two more semesters of chem. Your comment makes me think she made the right decision.</p>

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<p>I know many, many folks who started out premed, many who completed the premed requirements and applied to medical school, and did not get accepted. I also know some who did end up at medical school who did not start out premed. So there are many roads to “Rome”. Your son most likely knows that medical school admissions is unlikely if his grades are not up there. Sometimes a bad term or a bad grade here or there can be compensated for with excellence in more difficult courses thereafter and a very high gpa overall and in the premed courses even with some blotches. A year or so of grad school might make the difference. My friend who is a doctor did get a C in O-Chem, and did not get into medical immediately after college, but did eventually gain admittance and obtained her MD. </p>

<p>On a personal note, I did not have the grades for selective law schools or really any law school after college. But I worked in a specialty field with attorneys and took a lot of business and other such courses after college that brought my GPA up there and with exceptionally high LSATS, was accepted to top law schools. So it can happen.</p>

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<p>Our experience was just the opposite. I actively encouraged my D (actually, argued with her) to drop organic for the reasons that you note, Jhs. But stubbornly she stuck to it; even though it hurt her GPA, the “low” organic grade is her most treasured single grade in college.</p>

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<p>Bluebayu, just being curious, but what is your daughter doing now?</p>

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<p>There are <em>some</em> kids who have the kind of innate intelligence (super memorization skills, naturally well organized) and personality type that they can balance a very active social life and maintain a very high science GPA in college.</p>

<p>There are <em>some</em> kids who have worked very hard all through high school, have developed excellent study skills, and have the foresight and drive to turn down most social activities to study to reach a goal that will take another 12 years of hard work to reach.</p>

<p>Then there are the remaining 90% (I made up that statistic) of college freshmen premed majors. They weed themselves out of that track when they realize they are going to have to live the life of a monk for many years if they really want to remain on a premed track.</p>

<p>It appears that your son is going to have to go inactive in the fraternity, drop most of his outside social activities, and seriously concentrate on studying if he truly wants to continue on a premed track. He is in a major and track that sounds really sexy to an incoming freshman, but the reality of the time required to do well is a shock to most college freshmen.</p>

<p>I’m approaching this as a person who has 6 physicians in my and my husband’s immediate families My oldest kid dropped the premed track after one semester because he is a truly social person, and realized that in order to pursue med school he would have to commit himself totally to studying. He would have been a miserable person. He did some soul searching, completely switched majors and never looked back. His freshman roomate, also premed, stuck with it. He was sort of a social ghost for four years: in class, in a lab, with a study group, eating or sleeping. He attended very few football or basketball games, played no intramural sports, attended very few parties. He starts med school in the fall. My second child is still in college, is also very social, but has the kind of intelligence that allows him to remain socially active <em>and</em> get the high science grades. He will be a junior this fall, is still premed, has very high grades, but isn’t sure that he’ll apply to med school.</p>

<p>As parents what we can do is be supportive as our kids struggle to understand and learn to balance their personalities, intelligence types, majors and life. </p>

<p>(The aha moment for my oldest came during a freshman seminar course that was designed for premed biology majors. They took the Meyers Briggs (sp?). He was one of two kids in the class with his personality type, which is the exact opposite of the type almost everyone else in the class had. That moment clarified things for him. He <em>got</em> it… He would make a great physician, but the path to get there would go against his natural strengths and inclinations, and he didn’t want to be a physician badly enough to do that. It was wonderful that he figured it out during his first semester, freshman year.)</p>

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<p>Or, the Sparknotes version:</p>

<p>“Above all, be true to yourself, and if you cannot put your heart in it, take yourself out of it.” - Hardy D. Jackson</p>

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<p>I agree with eastcoastcrazy that there are all types of pre-med students and only a few go on to be successful med students (staying pre-med and getting accepted to med school). But I do want to note that son (one now an MS3) did have a VERY active social life and heavy ECs.</p>

<p>He was an executive officer of his eating club and was a D1 athlete. He also heavily participated in a non-medical volunteer program several times a week that took him off-campus and several years of research, both STEM and non-STEM. His major at his school is a tough one, one of the toughest, but not STEM, needed Calc up through Def Eq.</p>

<p>What I am saying is not all students need to be social ghosts. When filling out the AMCAS there is just as big a slot for NON-STEM activities as there is medically related. The adcomms want physicians for the MD programs, researchers for the MD/Phd programs. There is a reason why only 40% of these very high stat kiddos get accepted to med school. And some wonder why those with lower stats get in when others with higher ones don’t.</p>

<p>It’s kinda like the ivy admits for undergrad, a certain stat threshold is necessary but after that is all the other stuff that gets you an interview and then after the interview it is the whole package. Yes, it is the numbers that get you in the door but its everything else, the ECs, the volunteering, the shadowing, the research, the YOU that gets you accepted.</p>

<p>And that’s not even discussing the scholarships!</p>

<p>Again son did not aim for a high GPA, he was mindful of it but he did not let it dictate his schedule, something his pre-med advisor and he did not agree on. However, his mentor and research preceptor did agree on his expanding his knowledge base for as long as he was there.</p>

<p>Son followed his heart, and is on a full-tuition+ scholarship for all of med school and more. He turned down several ivy med schools (including HMS) for one where they are ranked #20 for research but #1 for primary care. He figured out through undergrad that he wasn’t crazy about research but loved interacting with people. He liked being part of a team, playing an active leadership role and looking beyond medicine to see what role he would play in the healthcare field.</p>

<p>Based upon this knowledge he found out about himself he will also be completing his MBA and MPH along with his MD in a joint program. His searching (for lack of a better word) during undergrad lead him to his econ major and senior thesis in healthcare and research at Harvard in Public Health. So trying different things rather than just playing it safe with regards to his GPA allowed him to discover all his different paths and options.</p>

<p>It doesn’t have to be lock-step, it is a process of discovery and knowledge. The greatest gift we give our children is time.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>D chose the “harder” college/no grade inflation, though had better scholarship offers at “easier” places–where in hindsight she likely would have had more attention from professors and a better GPA.
She stuck with pre-health (said about 75% changed out) in spite of average grades in some classes. D is very social, had a fun college experience, lots of activities, studied abroad, etc. Now she is applying to dental school (all she has ever wanted to do) with a marginal GPA (3.0>3.5), decent scores. Was advised to repeat a few classes at local school to raise GPA (grade replacement allowed). Holding breath to see if she gets interviews. But looking back, she wonders if she should have aimed only for the goal–easiest school, highest GPA. Her high school friends, who had similar GPAs/SAT scores back then who went to state u. got 4.0s and are already admitted to med school. She feels like a loser, but can only move forward from where she is.</p>

<p>Another story–H intended to be pre-med at ivy. Got C in first science class, changed major to history. Still, (after years of partying/chasing women;) ) graduated with only a 3.0. Spent 3 years working/volunteering (Peace Corps), went back to do pre-med post bac (got near 4.0 at state school)–which took another 2 years of classes/application process. He had also taken a gap year after high school. He was admitted to several med schools at age 29–7 years behind his “peers.” He is a theater/music/people-person and is in primary care. A very crooked road. Finished residency at 36, did a fellowship at 43.</p>

<p>A couple options: transfer to easy school and improve GPA. Change major and plan on doing post-bac program. Stay at current school and buckle down, cut back on activities to improve GPA and hope it works (D tried to do this with little success–too distracted by friends and fun activities, just couldn’t spend 100% of time studying, couldn’t say NO to friends with whom she’d already established relationships.)</p>

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<p>My youngest sister went to a public university with a well-deserved party-school reputation. Nominally she was a history major, but her real major was Tri-Delt. She graduated with a 3.3 GPA, which was awesome at the Tri-Delt house. Everyone thought she was super-smart (which she was). She had a similar GPA in high school, with a less-than-challenging curriculum (no calculus, no science after 10th grade).</p>

<p>At 33, in the throes of an early mid-life crisis, having quit a stock-exchange job, she realized that she had always wanted to go to medical school. She had none of the prerequisites, or even preparation for the prerequisites, except for high school biology and trig half her lifetime before. She entered a post-bac program at a large, competitive public university. She worked her tail off, for the first time in her life. There was no margin for error. She got A+ or A in all five required math/science courses, did OK on her MCATs, and was accepted at several non-prestigious medical schools at age 37. She was 43 when she finished her residency. She loves being an emergency medicine specialist; she was really born for it.</p>

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<p>Interesting stories. Atomom, there is something I don’t understand. Why is GPA so important when it can differ from school to school? I had a brief discussion with S and asked how badly he wanted to stay on the premed path. I suggested transferring to an easier school to boost the GPA. And suggested all the social and ECs had to stop. It would be study, study. Did he want it THAT MUCH? He has some thinking to do before we talk again. When I suggested switching schools, I saw a quick, subtle look of panic in his face. So begins the process of realization. Back to the GPA, I know it’s used in conjunction with MCAT, but why wouldn’t a lower GPA at a rigorous school trump a higher one at a lesser school? Some of his friends that are at our state flagship, who are good students but were under him in hs, made deans list. S mentioned he felt that whatever he eventually does, seeing that he took hard courses and challenged himself would be beneficial. I agree to a point, but I still, don’t think he understands the importance of the 3.5+. Do you challenge yourself at the expense of the GPA? The other frustrating thing is other programs, PA, grad, etc. ALL need high GPAs. The process seems to favor taking the “easy way out”.</p>

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<p>Well it does, kinda, particularly if one presents a strong MCAT. But what that means a 3.5 might be competitive from a top 20 Uni, but a 3.7+ may be needed from directional state U. Regardless, a 3.5 is kinda a floor for unhooked applicants from all but the tippy top schools. (Even MIT’s students, arguably the top STEM school in the world, average a 3.7 for acceptances.) A <3 is not competitive.</p>

<p>Also, your definition of less rigorous is not the same as grad/professional schools. For example, beyond HYPSM, the top 30 and probably top 50 and perhaps the top 100 schools are all considered somewhat similar – remember, the MCAT is the equalizer. OTOH, there may be a significant difference between say, Duke/Dartmouth and the local directional state U. But just know that directional state U has much less forgiving curves. Of course, the flagship in most states is always considered rigorous by the local instate med school.</p>

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<p>Grad schools (at least for PhD programs) will look at the specific courses listed on the transcript, because the admissions at that level are generally run by the faculty. A more challenging curriculum will be recognized.</p>

<p>On the other hand, as far as I can tell, for medical school, once the student has met the science/math admissions requirements, there is no preference for a more difficult curriculum over an easier one. There must be some sites that have charts showing GPA and MCAT score, and admissions rates.</p>

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<p>Here you go:</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/157998/mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/157998/mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>from the Association of American Medical Colleges. It’s a chart showing medical school acceptances by GPA crossed with MCAT score.</p>

<p>If I wanted to obtain a rough estimate of someone’s likely MCAT score, I would take the overall SAT percentile, subtract from 100, double that result, and subtract from 100 again. Then look up the MCAT score that corresponds to the resulting percentile. That is, assume that the percentage of students who will outscore him is twice what it was on the SAT. This might be an overestimate of his likely score, though. Maybe people with MCAT experience can say whether this puts things in the right ball park or not.</p>

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<p>Another comment: A study at my university showed that students who took calculus-based physics in college did better on the physics-related questions on the MCAT than students who took the non-calculus-based physics in college. This happened even though no calculus is required for the physics questions. From what I have heard, the MCAT is fairly difficult. I think that it rewards the challenge of the curriculum indirectly.</p>

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<p>The SAT is not an especially good predictor for the MCAT because the SAT is more an IQ test than MCAT is. ACT score is a better predictor, but still not a reliable one. ACT score ±2 is the usual ballpark for an MCAT score.</p>

<p>But that rule of thumb assumes that: 1) a student will prepare rigorously for the MCAT; and 2) has a firm grounding in the material covered by the MCAT.</p>

<p>Since the pool of students taking the MCAT is much smaller than the pool of students taking the SAT or ACT, the MCAT is much harder to score in the top 20-25%–which approx what’s needed to be a viable applicant for DO or MD school.</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/students/download/320554/data/combined12.pdf.pdf[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/students/download/320554/data/combined12.pdf.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I am learning so much from everyone. I agree the MCAT is an equalizer. My S is one who challenges himself. So it appears a 30 is sort of a minimum to have a chance at admission? I never heard the correlation to the ACT. When you say the overall SAT percentile, what do you mean? I can’t wait to sit with him and show him all these charts!</p>