Student Opinions on the USNWR Top 30 Nat’l Universities

[dstark]

<p>I’m not grumpy. :)</p>

[lgellar]

<p>

Now, if I was a high school student, I am supposed to be interested in Wake Forest because college students in a survey mentioned they like their interactions with professors? Give me a break. I had and have no interest in Wake Forest, or Vandy, or Duke, or many of the other schools listed, and I don’t care if the professors give me massages, or read me to sleep at night.

The point is that these schools must be doing something right if they’re doing that well in the survey.</p>

[dstark]

<p>"One of the questions that they ask is: “How involved is the faculty in your academic life?”</p>

<p>A series of choices were provided for students to respond to, eg,:

1. More than most. They know when I’m lying if I try to use the “my grandmother died” excuse for the third semester in a row."</p>

<p>What I want to know is why these students, at these good schools, are taking classes with the same professors three semesters in a row? </p>

<p>Can’t the students pass the class the first semester? Why did these students use the “my grandmother died excuse” in the first place? How did these students get away with this excuse for two semesters? I thought the relationship between the professors and students at these schools was so strong, that if a grandparent died, the professor would go to the funeral. </p>

<p>No wonder Harvard and Columbia scored so low. The students at these schools probably never took classes three semesters in a row with the same professor. How would you expect these students to respond? ;)</p>

[danas]

<p>I read response #1 as “I know who you are”. And maybe even “I can tell if you are having a bad day”. Such a person (am I hoping for too much?) would be able to read whether you, the student, would like more contact, or would rather be left alone. I guess I’m wishing for too much for $50,000 a year- mine and/or the endowment’s.
I graduated from a state flagship and had the same quality (distant) relationship with professors the one term I did at Harvard.</p>

[hawkette]

<p>IMO, the colleges that scored most highly on this question are often underrated and under considered by students looking for top colleges. But clearly something positive is going on at these colleges that indicate a high level of regard/interaction between students and faculty.</p>

<p>Wake Forest (79% say faculty involvement is better than most) is a college that I think often gets short shrift on CC and it definitely is unloved by the academic elite (witness its shockingly low PA score of 3.5). But I think that the students responses are a very strong testament to the relationship that Wake Forest breeds between its students and the faculty. The school’s nickname is “Work Forest” and with justification I’m told, but the students seem to revel in that and are very proud of their institution. The high caliber and grounded nature of Wake’s graduates is well known to employers. My impression is that a lot of that is attributable to the tone and the substance offered by the faculty. </p>

<p>Notre Dame (73%) is another college that gets modest love on CC and again is not a favorite of the academic elite (low comparative PA of 3.9-is there a pattern here?). Yet, Notre Dame students seem to think very highly of their relationship with their faculty. Like Wake Forest, ND grads are generally well-trained, very strong fundamentally, and work well with others. And like Wake, not many prima donnas in the bunch. Again, the faculty likely have played a role in developing/nurturing this and the students’ responses reflect this and appreciate their work. </p>

<p>One other interesting statistic about these two colleges is their percentages for students of color. These two rank at the bottom of the USNWR Top 30 for total number of minorities as measured by Black, Asian, and Hispanic. If you are one of these races and interested in an undergraduate experience that places a high premium on student/faculty interaction, then you may want to take a closer look at Wake Forest and Notre Dame.</p>

[UCBChemEGrad]

<p>

79% say faculty involvement is better than most

But they don’t say that…how are students in a position to compare? Have they taken classes at numerous colleges to form a comparison opinion?</p>

<p>No, the survey authors claim it’s “better than most” for them…students are saying that profs “know when I’m lying if I try to use the “my grandmother died” excuse for the third semester in a row.”…</p>

[UCBChemEGrad]

<p>

CC and it definitely is unloved by the academic elite (witness its shockingly low PA score of 3.5)

Name one program that Wake Forest is known for nationally. I can’t name one…hence that’s why WF has a lower PA score.</p>

[dstark]

<p>Where I live, students apply to schools all over the country. In 2006, two students applied to Wake Forest. They were accepted and chose not to go. In 2005, two students applied but were denied admission. In 2007, 2004 and 2003 , nobody applied.</p>

<p>So I guess Wake Forest is underrated. Actually, it is barely rated. Very few people care.</p>

<p>I have this feeling that these surveys and these threads aren’t going to make too much difference. And now that SAT scores are going to be optional…forget it. ;)</p>

<p>Notre Dame isn’t too popular either. It’s a little more popular at Catholic high schools.</p>

<p>At Marin Catholic, a Catholic school in Northern Cal, the school publishes a scattergram.</p>

<p>The password is mccollegeinfo. It may not be necessary to use a password, but if it is, type it in under guest. You may just have to refresh the internet page to access the scattergram. I believe the information is from 2003-2007.</p>

<p><a href=“https://connection.naviance.com/fc/colleges/scattergram_list.php[/url]”>https://connection.naviance.com/fc/colleges/scattergram_list.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[kyledavid80]

<p>

I concur that it is irresponsible to dismiss these data as “useless” simply because of the voluntary nature of the survey.

</p>

<p>Of course you would—the data pumps up ND and its reputation. Believe me, nobody who knows anything about statistics would really take voluntary response data seriously. It’s usually just something to muse about (like all the Princeton Review rankings, which are all mostly bogus, though fun to look at, largely because they’re based on voluntary response—not to mention they inherently commit the fallacy of interpersonal comparison).</p>

<p>(Now you see what it’s like to have your claims dismissed simply because you consistently support a certain school. :))</p>

<p>

So, I would think that the data would then skew towards the side that has more support (i.e. the side that more frequently represents reality).

</p>

<p>Naively simplistic logic like that really doesn’t reflect reality at all.</p>

<p>[Opinion</a> poll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_poll]Opinion”>Opinion poll - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>That has some good info on it.</p>

<p>

I know that at MIT, faculty are somewhat distant, but this is not a huge problem, since MIT students are EXTREMELY, HIGHLY, and INFINITELY motivated and utterly brilliant.

</p>

<p>Sweep, sweep, sweep with those generalizations.</p>

<p>

MIT does not fare too well in this survey, but that is not something to be held against it

</p>

<p>Isn’t it funny that 61% of MIT’s courses are under 20, and 14% are over 50, and it doesn’t “fare too well” in this survey? And that 61% of Berkeley’s courses are under 20 and 14% are over 50, and it doesn’t fair too well either? Yet you don’t hold it against MIT?</p>

<p>

as much out-of-class faculty assistance as, say, students at Notre Dame, who are, on average, less brilliant.

</p>

<p>Honestly, the students at ND are going to be no more “needy” than students at MIT; the same can be said of Berkeley and many other schools.</p>

<p>Really, such sweeping generalizations don’t help your case much…</p>

<p>

So don’t accuse me of trying to place my school on a pedestal, like it seems a disproportionate number of Cornell and Berkeley students seem to do around here.

</p>

<p>And Berkeley isn’t my school; I don’t place it on a “pedestal”; and “reality” is completely subjective here. I don’t have a bias so much for Berkeley as for a multitude of schools that are, in my opinion, underrated here on CC. I’m not here to bash or put down ND, though, like you seem to be for Berkeley.</p>

<p>Stating our skepticism doesn’t mean that we’re attempting to bring up Berkeley or bring down ND. Let’s look at it: ND has 55% of its courses under 20 and 11% of its courses over 50. Stanford has 74% of its courses under 20 and 10% of its courses over 50. And yet it’s ranked far below on this? If that makes sense to you… well, okay.</p>

<p>

Northstarmom does not promote a school in the way you guys promote Cal.

</p>

<p>Er, I’m sorry, but you missed the point of that example. The point was: Northstarmom is an example of one of the 30+ year-olds on CC who are successful graduates of top colleges (UCBChemEGrad being one too) and who also find the time to come on CC and help students out.</p>

<p>

I see a lot more help and a lot less arguing or selective picking threads/posts that have something to do with a school(defending/arguing for said school)

</p>

<p>Methinks you’re generalizing based on few observations. Search our posts; you won’t see it very much.</p>

<p>

As indicated in the opening post, the sampling here was not part of a scientific process. Many of the objections about the statistical basis of these results have some merit. I didn’t make up the question or the responses.

</p>

<p>Of course, hawkette, I know you have the maturity and the knowledge not to put forth such data as completely accurate and definitive, but rather as more data to think about in comparing universities.</p>

[lfecollegeguy]

<p>I don’t think posting on a college board meant for high schoolers and undergrad college students all day as a 30+ year old while perpetuating Cal bias defines UCBGrad to be successful. </p>

<p>Also, I guess if you consider arguing constantly, defending and pushing other schools down and refusing to admit any flaws to your alma mater “helping people out” then perhaps you should look at Northstarmom’s posts and see how they differ in quality.</p>

[kyledavid80]

<p>^^ now you’re just making ad hominem attacks. (Honestly, “all day”? Who gave you the authority to define “success”? And again, look at all the counterexamples…)</p>

<p>

you should look at Northstarmom’s posts

</p>

<p>…and again you miss the point of that example.</p>

<p>Oh well. I tried.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

What I want to know is why these students, at these good schools, are taking classes with the same professors three semesters in a row?

</p>

<p>I did, at NU, in a specialized honors program that had about 15 students in it at the time (though the program has grown since then). We were on the quarter system, taking 4 classes a quarter. For each of my first 2 years, I had two classes a quarter (=6 classes of the 12 I was taking each year) with this group of profs, my junior year was off and then I had a year-long capstone course my senior year. Many of the same profs were repeated. It wasn’t good or bad that they were the same profs. They invented the program, after all. Sorry, I don’t see that as a con.</p>

[dstark]

<p>It was a joke. ;)</p>

<p>I actually think most students at Wake Forest and Notre Dame pass their classes the first time they take it, including those who filled out the survey. :)</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

I thought the relationship between the professors and students at these schools was so strong, that if a grandparent died, the professor would go to the funeral.

</p>

<p>As a Myers-Briggs INTJ, the idea of a professor going to my (hypothetical) grandmother’s funeral just gives me the shudders. Send a card if you must, but GO AWAY and give me some damn privacy already.</p>

[dilksy]

<p>“Sorry, I don’t see that as a con.”</p>

<p>It’s not always a con, but if you don’t like a professor’s style of teaching/running a class, or they don’t really like you as a student, you’re pretty SOL.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

read response #1 as “I know who you are”. And maybe even “I can tell if you are having a bad day”. Such a person (am I hoping for too much?) would be able to read whether you, the student, would like more contact, or would rather be left alone.

</p>

<p>I’m just fine if they teach the class and teach it well and make me think and discover new insights. I can be excited by what I learn in a classroom and then go process it myself, do more reading on the topic, etc. </p>

<p>They don’t need to engage with me on a personal level after hours and I needn’t go have drinks with them in order for that to happen.</p>

<p>I’m really not shy at all IRL, but I am definitely a M-B I :-).</p>

[bclintonk]

<p>

@danas

My kids and I have always been on the consumer end of the equation. That’s the paying end. I’ll bet I have higher expectations for profs and educational institutions generally than you do.

</p>

<p>In point of fact, danas, you don’t know the first thing about my “expectations for profs and educational institutions generally.” Let’s set aside the gratuitous insults, shall we?</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

No, the survey authors claim it’s “better than most” for them…students are saying that profs “know when I’m lying if I try to use the “my grandmother died” excuse for the third semester in a row.”…

</p>

<p>And there’s an element of “they know too much about me” which pushes that response over into negative, for me. For me, the most positive response that I could give would indeed be “I interact with them in the classroom, and have reasonable access to them during office hours and such as needed to discuss specific issues.” Nowadays, that would presumably include reasonably timely responses to emails. </p>

<p>How often would you / did you all expect to see profs during office hours anyway? I wouldn’t have ever had a need unless there was a specific issue that needed discussing (I’m not understanding XYZ topic and I would like to go over it privately; I have a question on the requirements for a paper and I couldn’t get to the prof before or after class; etc.). I think there’s merit in being low-maintenance, personally.</p>

[thejoker0909]

<p>“Stating our skepticism doesn’t mean that we’re attempting to bring up Berkeley or bring down ND. Let’s look at it: ND has 55% of its courses under 20 and 11% of its courses over 50. Stanford has 74% of its courses under 20 and 10% of its courses over 50. And yet it’s ranked far below on this? If that makes sense to you… well, okay.”</p>

<p>Look, to the person who posted that response, its wrong to think ND is better than/on par with Stanford. No offense to ND, but ND is a step, though a small one, down from HYPSM, and a few others. To be sure, ND is still a top twenty school, but not a top 5. </p>

<p>However, its important to note that though that stat points to smaller class sizes for stanford, it does not necessarily state that the faculty attention is that much better. At a place like stanford, where there are so many grad students and such a strong focus on research, its easy to see how faculty dedication for ugs could be worse than at a place like ND, Dartmouth, Princeton, or many other LAC-style universities. </p>

<p>btw, though ND only has 55% of classes under 20 total, there is small classes where necessary. For example, the intro to calc class may be large, but almost all the arts and letters courses are much smaller.</p>

[lgellar]

<p>

It’s not always a con, but if you don’t like a professor’s style of teaching/running a class, or they don’t really like you as a student, you’re pretty SOL.

Pretty awesome recommendation letter I would imagine if someone’s had them that long though. </p>

<p>Actually, having fewer professors but for longer periods of time is better because you don’t need all of them to write recommendation letters, and the ones that you will want writing recommendation letters will be able to write very good ones.</p>