<p>“So why, at some of these institutions, is one more likely to find a student with a second home than one with a Pell Grant?” …</p>
<p>Because so many kids with “a second home” are snobs without even realizing it and kids from low income neighborhoods don’t want to spend four years with snobs who look at them as projects to be “adored” and “helped” and told how amazing they are just to be able to get to the same school as the kid with the “second home.”</p>
<p>
Maybe the low income kids think that’s how it would be, although I don’t think that’s true at all.</p>
<p>It is true however that full pay students at private schools often have had a very different childhood than those with full need, including a perspective that everyone they know and care about comes from the same background.</p>
<p>While because of the magic of television, 
lower income students are aware of the opportunites students from high income families recieve, but how aware are those students of families who struggle to get their kids a pair of shoes when they need it, or who dont have appliances like a washer & dryer or a furnace that works?</p>
<p>My D had friends who assumed that when she needed money, she could just ask her parents!
:rolleyes:</p>
<p>I certainly agree that well-off kids often don’t undertand the financial realities of kids from different backgrounds–but that is not the same as saying they are snobs who look down on poor kids. I do recall a few snobs from my own college days, but they looked down on about 90% of the students in the college. Most students, in my experience, were people of good will who could learn about this issue.</p>
<p>Still dont have access to the paper but it appears that they released similar findings at a CB conference released here:
<a href=“College Board - SAT, AP, College Search and Admission Tools”>College Board - SAT, AP, College Search and Admission Tools;
<p>Their case is made much better than in the magazine article. I am still concerned that their under-matching for the lowest quartile is compared only to the “affluent”, which I am guessing is the 9th and 10th decile. It would be nice to know to what extent this effect goes on- maybe it happens to all kids in 1-8th deciles in which case its different causes that what we are lead to think.</p>
<p>Maybe the problem of missing applications would be ameliorated if selective college accepted the Common App without requiring supplements.</p>
<p>I’ve read about kids who did not hear about the SAT until senior year. Lots of people have not heard of the SAT subject tests, which are much lower-profile but the SAT but which are required by many selective colleges. High school juniors aspiring to selective schools and taking pre-calc and U.S. history should be taking the math level 2 and U.S. history subject tests at the end of the academic year, while the material is still fresh. My kids will know that, but many kids will not.</p>
<p>My definition of a snob, is someone who assumes that access to money makes for a “better” person, and that proximity to those without access will rub off on them. :p</p>
<p>I agree that money doesn’t mean someone is a snob, and I will go farther to say that most people are not, especially college aged students who had a privileged lifestyle because of their parents work & investments, not their own.</p>
<p>However, families where very few members ever attend college, may be getting pressure from family & friends to keep their ambitions low. </p>
<p>Even our family, knew very little about private colleges where the COA was about equal to our gross income. We hadn’t enough income to have 529 accts, the most we had were regular purchases of savings bonds. Attending a state university, was going to be the most we could consider, even with merit aid. Which would have probably been fine.</p>
<p>It was very exciting news to find out that some schools met 100% of need.( which I found out from our neighbor)
It would be even better news if they weren’t so ultra competitive for acceptance that they aren’t looking for students who have overcome obstacles, but are only B+ students, but you have to start somewhere.</p>
<p>As a College & Career Counselor at a medium-sized high school in THE most diverse district in the state I can tell you that resources are available to students and their families. Whether or not these resources and my services are utilized are another story. I see about the same 50-75 kids on a regular basis who “know what the want to be when they grow up.” I host workshops for both students (during the school day) and parents (in the evenings) on topics from admissions essays to financial aid. I also bring admissions officers from colleges/universities all over Washington and surrounding states to talk to students as early as their freshman year (although all ages are welcome).</p>
<p>As far as motivation to go to college and opportunity. Last year alone almost 80% of dependent, undergraduate students received a PELL Grant as part of their financial aid package. I find that there are more opportunities to receive financial aid at private schools because they have donors and alumni willing to throw money at students. Yes, they cost more but the excess in funds makes up for that factor quickly.</p>
<p>Lots of presumably educated kids (well, applying to HYPS and other greats,) still ask on CC when deadlines are, if they need SAT2s, whether first semester senior grades matter, etc.</p>
<p>Honestly, I don’t know how much we can presume low-income kids are held back by family and local social pressures. We can’t assume they all want to go far away. For many, the local best opp is the best fit-- and the place where they can be empowered and be the cream. Make local contacts, be able to stay in close contact with family, whatever.</p>
<p>most of these students are unlikely to have met a teacher, counselor or older student who ever attended a selective college.</p>
<p>And therein lies one significant argument for Affirmative Action at selectives or higher. Trickle down. Not “gimme” opportunities, not turning more low income kids into high income, highly consuming folks, but the value in their simple influences on the next generations.</p>
<p>Much as the first women admitted to med schools influenced others.</p>
<p>Terrible argument. </p>
<p>“Sorry kid, you cant get the slot you deserved because we cant be sure that you are going to be teacher, counselor or role model to low SES kids. What there are 6 low SES kids in your family? Sorry we dont like that kind”</p>
<p>Argbargy, you didn’t read what lookingforward said. She didn’t say that slots should be reserved for those who intend on being teachers/counselors for low SES kids. She merely said that there is a trickle-down effect in pulling low SES kids into better schools and getting them educated, and she’s right.</p>
<p>“And therein lies one significant argument for Affirmative Action”</p>
<p>“one” “significant” “argument.” Not the reason 33,000 kids get denied admissions at Harvard or 90%+ at other most selectives. I don’t understand why he or she keeps challenging and mocking. It’s ■■■■■-like. If we suspected this was a hs kid, we’d call it that.</p>
<p>He’s annoyed. He wants the schools to have a different mission than they do. He wants to define “meritocracy” according to his strengths and he fails to understand that others value other things as highly, if not more so, than the SAT.</p>
<p>He mostly posts on the SAT forum. So, we could call it obsessive, if we weren’t so annoyed. Perhaps he needs help.</p>
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</p>
<p>True. Even with net price calculators now on college web sites, many students and parents asking “which college?” questions seem to have no idea how to figure out which colleges are realistic financially if the student just got admitted with need-based aid (versus those that would require big merit scholarships versus those that are completely out of reach).</p>
<p>% of Pell recipients is actually something I looked at when S was considering colleges. I will do the same when D makes her list, it’s actually rather important to me, along with racial diversity and all the “regular” criteria.</p>
<p>There are also non-monetary costs associated with going away to college. Many of these low income families have multiple children with a single parent. If the oldest stays at home and attends the community college, he or she can still live in the home and be able to help out. There is a cost associated with the loss of that help. If having an older sibling at home allows the single parent to hold down a second job, it makes a big difference.</p>
<p>Add to that the stories their parents have heard about financial aid from the kids who would never have gotten into an elite school, and they expect to end up deep in debt. Perhaps the kid in the apartment next door went to a for-profit school, and had not out-of-pocket expenses, but ended up $50,000 in debt, and while he has a job, it’s not enough to pay off his loans AND move into his own apartment. If Harvard or Yale’s program is twice as long, and cost twice as much per year, you can only imagine the debt they anticipate - even though they have been assured they will get aid. After all, the neighbor’s kid got “aid” too. They expect 4 times the debt, and doubt it will result in an income high enough to pay off that debt, so why bother?</p>
<p>Some of it is cultural. Where I live, many of the talented-low-income kids are Hispanic, or children of immigrants from cultures where young people live at home during college. </p>
<p>Let’s face it our elite schools, and LACs, are based on the British example where ‘boarding’ or on-campus living are considered a crucial part of the overall educational experience. In much of the world, that’s a foreign – or at least not so widely practiced - concept.</p>
<p>" He wants the schools to have a different mission than they do."</p>
<p>Yeah, I want them to stop screwing over kids and playing favorites based on group membership. </p>
<p>It makes it worse when people congratulate themselves on how “enlightened” they are when there are real kids being hurt here. The kids bare the brunt of it while other adults pretend they are such humanitarians. Spare us. </p>
<p>That’s OT and lookingfor should be ashamed for trying to smuggle it in here (jk)</p>
<p>On topic, looking at the data it is possible that there might be a decent number of kids who are not getting steered to the school which they merit. That I think is a problem worth addressing. First off it would probably be a good thing is college stopped advertising phoney baloney prices. I think that is discouraging families making $41K from even looking around at what is out there.</p>