<p>That is good to know reeinaz. I wasn’t sure if the GC would approve the NACAC waiver if the student aready had 4 CB ones.</p>
<p>So, everyone can spend all day speculating, but I can tell you part of what’s going on because I am one of the low income kids you talk about. Well, I was and now my daughter is. There are several factors involved with URMs and SES studetns not attending elite schools.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>MONEY: I was accepted to more than one upper eschelon school back in the early 90’s when I went to college. However, at the time, the financial aid did not match what staying at my local, private university covered. As several have mentioned, there are many costs involved with college that do not involve tuition. Elite schools offered 1/2 - Full tuition academic scholarship, but what about room, board, travel, etc. Even a new wardrobe would’ve been required. I didnt’ even own a pair of boots or a winter coat. Where she is accepted and the total financial aid package (without loans) is the primary concern in considering where my D13 will be heading to university. </p></li>
<li><p>CULTURE: Many low income students come from cultures that do not promote children leaving home before they marry. This was the case with my generation and the one before me who had just come to our country. In my case, i was “too young” to go away to school because I was only 16. This is not going to be a problem with my daughter because she is now a second-generation American and we are culturalized to accept that it’s a part of normal progression. </p></li>
<li><p>FAMILY OBLIGATIONS: Do you realize how many students actually help support THEIR families? It may be a “no brainer” that students who receive a class-A education would have greater financial opportunities in the long run, but practically speaking, it’s hard to remember that when you’re just trying to make sure you have a place to sleep and food on the table every day.</p></li>
<li><p>They have to get IN!! Say you are on free/reduced lunch & qualify for application waivers. You have 8 free apps you can submit. So taking our generally-accepted CC strategy to apply to 2-3 safeties, 2-3 matches, and 2-3 reaches. What if they aren’t accepted by the 2-3 reaches they apply to? They can’t forego their safety/match applications in favor of more elite applications.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>To refute a few things …
- These kids don’t want to go there: maybe. A few times. They may feel ill-prepared because they didn’t have the same access to preperatory classes. Not that AP/IB isn’t available, it’s just not always taught at the same standard or by the same quality of an instructor. </p>
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<li>Ignorance: With comments like some of those I’ve seen here, it’s no wonder more lower income students don’t attend. They are made to feel inferior by those who think their families are IGNORANT for not allowing or encouraging them to go to schools they know nothing about!! They are UNINFORMED or misunderstanding of the process. They aren’t ignorant. SMH.</li>
</ol>
<p>If schools recruit low-income students more heavily and find the extra financial aid money by firing useless administrators and freezing faculty pay, that’s fine with me. In practice they seem to fund increased financial aid by gouging the full-pay students with ever-higher tuition.
A general question is whether one thinks there is too much or not enough redistribution in American society.</p>
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You shouldn’t be offended by this suggestion, because many higher-income students are ignorant, too. I would also say that anybody who doesn’t have a computer at home is likely to have a lot less information that those who do.</p>
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<p>I missed quite a few pages of this thread and don’t have time to catch up, but I have to agree with Hunt. In the dark ages when I was in high school we had to move to a private school area in FL for one year. I easily got in on scholarship, but most students were full pay. I had some decent friends, but they were incredibly unaware of how most with less income live. I distinctly recall one lunch conversation where I was asked how much my dad made. I told them the truth - $18000. Without missing a beat the student who asked said, “Wow, we have paintings in our living room that cost more than that.”</p>
<p>Then too, there were some students who made fun of the fact that my clothes weren’t in style or my grandma picked me up in an old car.</p>
<p>IMO, all were mainly unaware. I know I was until actually seeing how some lived (via true friends and purely listening to conversations).</p>
<p>When we moved back home the science teacher I had offered to write a recommendation for me to enter a top school in NYC. I had to tell him, that while we lived in NY, our hometown was a few hours from NYC and private schools weren’t an option.</p>
<p>Now, while working in our local public high school, I’ve seen even more diversity among the students (though we don’t get the upper classes much here - there are a few).</p>
<p>I’ve tried to prep my guys for all sorts of life - and tried to tell them that more is due to being unaware than aware and intolerant (though that happens too).</p>
<p>All that said, I’m glad for the kids who can break the mold of poverty and succeed. They often make very, very, good adults. Most don’t even care to try nor think they can. All of us (humans) tend to think the way we are brought up is the way things are.</p>
<p>As one of the posters who mentioned ignorance, I wasn’t saying they were inferior, just that there are some things about the process, not the material, that they may be unaware of due to low quality resources. Also, I say this as a low income, first gen, minority student. I don’t know enough about kids from inner city schools to know what all their obsticals are, but I know that disadvantaged rural kids generally fight a big battle with not knowing what exactly they have to do. Small public schools aren’t prepared to help these kids because they don’t know what is important, and consequently they don’t teach what is important to the students (I am not referring to academic material, although many rural publics are lacking there as well, but proper test prep, recommendations, access to fee waivers, top school financial aide, etc…)</p>
<p>I say this from experience. If I hadn’t had Upward Bound I would not have known about many things that have helped me now. They gave me the in on my search. Had I not visited some of these schools, I wouldn’t know anything about the admissions process of what kind of financial aide they give. My school prepares students for tech, CC, and occasionally state university. They don’t prepare students for anything higher, they have to do it themselves. Pretty sad when the guidance counselor knows nothing about the national merit scholars, and to make things worse, I don’t come from the worse public around. In fact, many other schools in my area are much worse. This is why I say ignorance (which shouldn’t be such an insult, all it means is they don’t know) is a factor</p>
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<p>The school where I work (and my kids attend) had a principal who actually told us:</p>
<p>“Public school isn’t here for the academically talented student. They will do well no matter what. Public school is here for the average student and around here the average student works at ____, joins the military, or goes to community college.”</p>
<p>He was telling the truth. Our school does those things fairly well. Thankfully, we have some new leadership in and I’m seeing small steps of progress, but progress is slow when resistance is high. Our guidance counselors aren’t that uninformed, but they don’t have much experience with selective schools due to the preparation and ability of the students (fine with state schools and equivalent privates).</p>
<p>The preparation at our school is woeful. If students do not do more outside of class, they go off to 4 year college thinking they are prepared and need a quick learning curve to succeed. Some do actually do a bit outside of class. I really root for them to get in places as I know they will succeed.</p>
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They aren’t talking about elite colleges, simply selective ones. Come on, that’s over half of these students. I can’t believe that it’s just a matter of not applying because they’d rather not attend a selective school. Rejecting an option is not the same as making a choice without knowing the options. I think most of the 53% probably fall into the latter category.</p>
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<p>Ok, let’s assume that you are correct. Then what? We hold a gazillion workshops and meetings – let’s even pretend that they are no cost – to tell all of these low income students about 140+ selective colleges. Get them all fired up to apply. Hold pep rallies. Bring in professors to wax eloquent. And after all is said and done, tell them, ‘oh, btw, you won’t be able to afford nearly every “selective” college on this list because only a few “elite” colleges meet full financial need.’ </p>
<p>Again, what is the point?</p>
<p>Just because a low income kid has the talent, the grades and lots of money provided through grants or scholarships so that s/he can go to an elite school doesn’t ensure inevitable success. Such a kid would have to have a lot of intestinal fortitude and maturity to brazen through the college years among the privileged element that naturally gravitates to these schools and who are armed with a sense of entitlement and a big wallet. And then there would also be issues with socializing among the middle class kids who may not have the tons of money but undoubtedly had much softer lives growing up. And what about the possible lack of emotional support from friends and family back home who might be jealous over said student’s new status? It takes a driven, determined individual from low income circumstances to rise above these challenges. Adequate funding is only one part of the equation.</p>
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<p>Yes, a lot of people are now concerned that [income</a> in the US is being redistributed too much in favor of the top 1%/0.1%/0.01%](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States]income”>Income inequality in the United States - Wikipedia), while [intergenerational</a> economic mobility in the US is low compared to most other developed countries](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States]intergenerational”>Socioeconomic mobility in the United States - Wikipedia). Such conditions could lead to economic stagnation and political and social instability.</p>
<p>Agree with Poetgirl #5. The people really should worry about college cost are middle class famillies.</p>
<p>Middle income households ($50,000 per year is the median in the US) probably count as “poor” in the context of cost and financial aid at expensive private schools (or some out-of-state public schools) whose list price is as much as their entire income.</p>
<p>Of course, if “middle income” means [url=<a href=“Romney: Middle-Income Reaches to $250,000 - WSJ”>Romney: Middle-Income Reaches to $250,000 - WSJ]$250,000[/url</a>] per year household income, then the issues are different, although at least some such households can comfortably pay list price anywhere.</p>
<p>For a family with 200k income live in some states, after payroll tax, fed, state and local tax, property tax, mortgage and insurances. What’s left is not much more than college cost per year.</p>
<p>Perhaps the answer is organizations to fill the role of college counselors - not the school guidance counselors, but someone to walk the higher performing low SES kids through the process. They can’t necessarily do anything about the cultural issues, and the stresses from the home environment such as those helping to support their families. These counselors could fill the same role as the private counselors used by higher income families.</p>
<p>As for some of the other roadblocks, some schools are doing what they can to remove some of them. My D applied to attend several multicultural open houses at selective colleges, and was accepted to attend one. Many of them pay for transportation to these events, and offer application fee waivers not just to those chosen to attend, but to some of not all who are not able to attend. If students feel they need to save their fee waivers for safety and target schools, they can ask the reach schools for a fee waiver. But they probably don’t know they can do this.</p>
<p>The college where we attended the open house encouraged parents to attend with the student (and paid transportation and hotel room for them), and while the students attended classes, the parents had a workshop to complete the CSS profile - a scary prospect for those already uncomfortable with FAFSA.</p>
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<p>As I said, in *our *case it IS true. And in the case of 1-2 other friends of his that I can think of right offhand. One didn’t get a good FA package from her first choice but she got a great one from her second. Guess where she went? Neither one guarantees to meet full need but the second one did anyway. </p>
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<p>I speak of a gap in our case that was quite small. We covered it with help from extended family.</p>
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<p>I’m not talking about a merit lottery, I’m talking about need-based aid, sometimes combined with merit aid (which is how it went for S, all of his offers included both). Of his accepts, two met full need or very close, and 4 came close but not close enough for us. So he chose one of the two that did meet need.</p>
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<p>S didn’t pay for any of his apps. They were all straight-up free, “VIP invitation to apply” or “apply by Dec 1 and we’ll waive the fee” apps. Also, he took full advantage of the “send 4 free scores” offered with each test. I went back and only paid for 2-3 ACT scores, at a cost of, as I recall, $11 each. </p>
<p>If a family qualifies for free/reduced lunch, as I believe the families we are discussing would, then the family is entitled to fee waivers for 2 ACT sittings, 2 SAT sittings, 2 SAT subject tests and a number of applications limited mainly by how often he wants to fill out an app waiver form. </p>
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<p>I said they met his full need (within a few hundred dollars). I didn’t specify how much our need was and I won’t.</p>
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<p>Lorem, I think we should be careful not to mix different concepts. Your example is about not every school offering an admission to a candidate that presents an extraordinary application package. Your example is real and it is further supported by the example of Silverturtle (with a lot of additional parallels.) In a world of single digits admissions, schools make decisions, and it is known that schools might be prone to pass on someone they KNOW will be snapped by another school (or think they will) or think the student will pass on them. </p>
<p>You should also note that one of the first things I wrote here is that our schools have done a much better job addressing the racial inequities than the SES’ --and that was also paraphrasing Mr. Marx, by the way. </p>
<p>Fwiw, I do understand the points raised by some here regarding the apparent limitations placed on certain groups of students --call it quota if you want. And, yes, we should not be naive enough that the availability of financial assistance plays a major role in filling all the slots. This is not different that what athletic coaches do when playing with their numbers in sports that do not have head scholarships. They start with the must haves, dole a bit to the next slots, and then try to convince walk-ons to join. </p>
<p>So, yes, there ARE limits to the amount of available money and even higher limits to the spots offered. And there many, many different groups to “make happy” as the development office is calling, and the alumni, and the lady who wants more Emily Dickinson, and the coaches, and the ethnic lobbying groups, and a bunch of people threatening to play the discrimination cards. And that does not even account for the backbone of this country … our massive middle-class with their BWRK! In all of that, it is a given that the disadvantaged is hardly the most vocal or the better represented. And to boot, that applicant IS expensive! </p>
<p>All of that is true, but it does not change much to the point I made, and that more efforts should be made to give MORE people a chance to compete. Does not mean a guaranteed chance of success, but a ticket to lottery. Could this be viewed as cynical (or be glorified rubbish as my esteemed friend BB calls it) in light of the limitations on open spot? Maybe, but it matters none as we should not fear … trying. And we should not fear … succeeding. </p>
<p>And trying to lift more boats we must!</p>
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<p>Quick estimate based on $200,000 wage/salary income (as opposed to types of income favored with lower tax rates or lack of payroll tax like long term capital gains) of married couple:</p>
<p>PITI on mortgage = $56,000 (28% of income typical lending limit, assuming that the family buys as expensive a house as it can get a mortgage for – but there are a lot of houses cheaper than that which can be bought)
payroll tax = $10,000
California state income tax = $10,000
Federal income tax = $30,000</p>
<p>Subtracting that from $200,000 gives $94,000 after payroll tax, income tax, and PITI on mortgage.</p>
<p>Not sure how many colleges people typically consider cost anywhere close to $94,000 per year.</p>
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<p>It takes time! Eight years ago, I started working on this precise issue in a school that had never heard of programs like Gates or Questbridge (for good reasons.) There was little to no desire to do more than to graduate and go to the state school. The only exceptions were the athletes who dominated one particular sport. Without interested students, the GC and principal showed no interest. It took three years to get the second successful applicant. Three more years later, the message was clearly understood. Students competed for higher GPAs. The administration did a 180 turnaround and started supporting the applications and … the mentoring. </p>
<p>Result? Last year, 11 students received the Gates Millennium scholarship. That is ten percent of the entire graduating class. And to top colleges they go! </p>
<p>The road less traveled is often the most rewarding, but there is a reason why it is not chosen often!</p>
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<p>I agree fully. We are grateful that my son has been granted an educational opportunity that we otherwise could never afford. This opportunity did not even exist when my first son finished high school.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, this is a problem with multiple variables and it doesn’t much help to raise awareness if there is only enough financial aid available to offer nearly-free rides to a few hundred students on each of less than two dozen campuses nationwide. The odds are so bad of getting one of these slots, the average low-SES student might have better luck buying lottery tickets.</p>
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<p>My son wrote a few lines in one of his essays about having taken the road less traveled only to find himself mired in a bureaucratic swamp!</p>