Submitted: Virginia should become independent

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Virginia
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<p>Transfer students don't count in the rankings. That's why Berkeley can be a lot more strict in their general admissions policy, even though they accept many transfers, thereby increasing their standards which are reflected in their US News Ranking. The only thing that I could think of would be affected by this would be parts of the scoring which are based on the number of students (student:faculty ratio, etc), which are only minor components.</p>

<p>Transfer applicants applying into A&S with a 3.4 from a CC school are accepted into UVA anyway, except those who don't meet requirements and the like. The transfer agreement program was created as a deal to let UVA be more independent in its dealings (there was that whole Charter thing going on). What this does is just raise awareness that it has always been possible to get into UVA with a 3.4 GPA from a CC. Additionally, at least according to some of the higher ups CC transfer perform as well or better than most regular students. I think I'll agree with that- I think the people here getting 3.0s would be getting 3.4s in CCs.</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE]
Sorry for that word, but that's insane.

[/QUOTE]
Tech and William & Mary are being told to do similar things. In fact, some of us suspect that the state telling UVA, Tech and W&M to increase VCCS students may be hurting schools like CNU and Radford, who traditionally have gotten many students from those schools. If you were graduating from a community college and had every state school in the system courting you, wouldn't you go for the biggest name of them all?</p>

<p>In an odd bit of timing, the politicians in Richmond are also discussing a</a> financial "bonus" for those who start in the VCCS before moving to one of the four year schools.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
well, there are other fine schools for top students to consider.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is the essence of it. These policy shifts are not only anti-UVA, they're anti-Virginia. Because even more than before, the best students will ultimately have to consider leaving the Commonwealth altogether, many never to return. </p>

<p>For the sake of some cheap P.R., and perhaps some votes from short-sighted souls who haven't figured out the ramifications, these politicians are selling Virginia down the river.</p>

<p>
[quote]
In April 2006, the University released its first transfer agreement with VCCS. This agreement guaranteed admission to the University's College of Arts & Sciences to associate's degree holders with at least a 3.4 grade point average and no grade lower than a C in a set of required classes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>These politicians have evidently looked not at Duke, Berkeley or Princeton, but at the University of Maryland and said "now there's a college we'd like UVA to emulate!" </p>

<p>
[quote]
William Stosch, the Republican majority leader in the state Senate, R-District 12, expressed his aim to increase the number of two-year community college transfers and his belief that education at a two-year college can be equivalent to studying at a four-year institution.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It would appear that Mr Stosch is pursuing a vendetta against quality higher education in the Commonwealth.</p>

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<p>Incidentally, for anyone researching this topic, the state senator's name appears to be "Walter Stosch" not William. See <a href="http://legis.state.va.us/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://legis.state.va.us/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>His email contact is listed through that page -- however I don't think anyone should bother him as publicity will be more effective. </p>

<p>Most people in Virginia don't even know what's going on--yet. A fair amount of education will have to come first.</p>

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<p>Schools that track CC transfer student success find little difference in grades for the transfers vs the 4 year students. The same thing is likely at UVa.</p>

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<p>FYI for those who like to follow state politics, one of my favorite political bloggers, Waldo Jaquith, created a website where you can see what bills are being discussed, what committees are up to, and how members are voting. It's brand new, so I'm sure the format will improve over time.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.richmondsunlight.com/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.richmondsunlight.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Current hot topics: new vanity plate slogans and the adoption of the Shenandoah mountain salamander as the official state amphibian.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Schools that track CC transfer student success find little difference in grades for the transfers vs the 4 year students. The same thing is likely at UVa.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That may be fairly true on an overall basis but, according to a 2003 SCHEV report, not at the state's most selective schools.</p>

<p>
[quote]
A March 2003 VCCS transfer report examined the academic performance of
2,695 transfer students who entered a community college for the first time in fall 1993 and transferred to a four- year institution within four years. The grade point average for all coursework attempted during the first year at the VCCS college was 2.84, compared to a 2.73 GPA for all coursework attempted during the first year after transfer to a four-year institution. Although students appeared to experience a “transfer shock,” or a slight drop in GPA, the grade point average at the four-year college was comparable to the GPA earned at the two-year college. Not surprisingly, the greatest drops in GPA were at the public institutions with the more selective admissions policies—the College of William and Mary, Mary Washington College, the University of Virginia, Virginia Tech, and James Madison University. The VCCS grade point average of students transferring to these institutions was over a 3.00, but students experienced drops in GPAs ranging from –1.02 at the College of William and Mary to a drop of -0.26 at James Madison University.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Graduation Rates also differ:</p>

<p>
[quote]
The four-year graduation rate for native juniors ranged from a high of 57.0% in 1998-99 to a low of 53.6% in 1996-97. The four- year graduation rate for those who transferred with an associate degree ranged from a high of 31.6% in 1998-99 to a low of 25.2% in 2000-01. The gap between the two rates has increased by six percentage points over the past seven years. One in four of the 2000-01 cohort of transfer students completed the baccalaureate degree within four years, compared with better than one in two juniors.

[/quote]
</p>

<p><a href="http://www.schev.edu/Reportstats/ConditionOfTransferInTheCommonwealthReport2003.pdf?from=%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.schev.edu/Reportstats/ConditionOfTransferInTheCommonwealthReport2003.pdf?from=&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Pages 20 - 25</p>

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<p>super.nova</p>

<p>Thanks for your work.</p>

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<p>I may be biased on this opinion, because I'm actually trying to transfer to UVa from VT, but i'll try to keep my emotions out....sorry in advance if I just rant, please don't shoot me. This matter is slightly personal for me.</p>

<p>First, the largest school attended by my senior class was NoVa (a VCCS school in, well, NoVa haha). And for a reason. Most of those students were graduating with below a 3.0, or with around a 3.0 but 1-2/no APs/honors/higher classes (such as pre-calc, physics, ect. Those type of classes are not required). Their SATs (if they took them) hover around 1000-1100 and they think they did great. Now, they're going to attend NoVa were (I've heard from personal account) classes are easy, professors are willing to give out extra credit and such, and overall, its easy to breeze through with a 3.4.<br>
Then take a student like me. I graduated highschool with a 3.6, after taking 8 APs, all honors possible (something like 9, but as honors went away, AP took their places), and a 1380 SAT. I'm now at VT for engineering, a very well-respected engineering program, but its just not for me. So, i'm working madly to crank out amazing essays, get amazing recommendations, and make my application stand out to adcoms. I also have a 3.1 college GPA, and a 3.2 in my major.
Now, heres my first anger cry: How can you compare GPAs from a VCCS and a 4-yr public instituion like VT? Obviously VT classes are much more demanding, and the overall atmosphere of a 4-yr institute is much more demanding (most likely living on their own for the first time, social struggles, ect). And while this may not be true for all, I think the general consensus is that larger schools like VT, W&M, ect are going to be a lot tougher than VCCS, which leads to lower GPAs. Why should someone be penalized for having the grades out of high school, chose to attend a 4-yr school, get a slightly lower GPA as a result, and yet still be chosen over VCCS students? I think this whole thing will lead to the almost removal of sophmore transfers, because now they'll feel that HS records shouldn't matter (as in the case of VCCS transfers) and thus only concentrate on junior transfers. And that is the absolute worst thing UVa can do for its transfers, because for someone like me with a specialized program (engineering) its extremely difficult to meet UVa's junior transfer requirements and meet the current school's requirements. I'm having to take 17 credits this semester, and i'm still behind by 2 classes (but luckily 3 APs will make up for other classes, so i really won't be behind in the end).</p>

<p>Second grip: VCCS transfers don't have to do an application (a typical one that is), no recommendations to try to deal with, no HS transcripts, no essays, basically, no work! Meanwhile, 4-yr institute students are trying to keep up with classes, keep up with ECs and activities, AND write an application, write essays, organize recommendations, AND sleep and eat every once in awhile.</p>

<p>The only thing I support about this is that they are limited to CAS. And they have to meet class requirements. Other than that, I do not support this agreement, for UVa, VT, or W&M. These are too fine of institutions to take students who messed around during high school, got it easy post-college, and now decide "Oh I want to go to UVa! Or VT! And only because I can!". The universities should be concentrating on those who have worked hard, whether it be HS and college (soph transfers) or just college (junior transfers) but have made an effort to go to a good school otherwise and complete a bachlor's. </p>

<p>I'm sorry, but to every other transfer, this process it totally unfair. Now naturally, the thing to say would be "Oh had I known this I would've screwed off during high school, gone to NoVa for two years, then transfer to UVa". But, I hold college, as well as education, as a very high priority in life and I hold it in great regard. I think that route is low, unproductive, and will not graduate the caliber of students that UVa, VT, and W&M have graduated since their foundings. If UVa is so worried about their numbers, this will most likely only make it worse. Some of the entering VCCS transfers will have not worked the caliber that it takes to succeed in UVa, ever. Do you think they will be successful at UVa? Most likely not. Some probably will. There will be those few. But let those few apply like every other transfer.</p>

<p>To sum it all up, why waste a spot on a 2.6 HS grad, a 3.4 at VCCS, and who knows if they have a good resume/essay skills/recommendations. UVa has other transfer applicants from places like W&M, VT, even JMU, who although they might have a slightly lower GPA, they have worked extremely hard to get the GPa, have put many late nights into their applications, and WANT to succeed at a higher institution. Or they just don't fit at their current school. Not to mention those OOS who got rejected for first-year, pulled a 3.5 in college, and are now re-applying because UVa will forever be their first-choice. Is this really going to help UVa's reputation? Or the overall student body of UVa?</p>

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<p>shoebox:</p>

<p>It sounds from reading Dean J's stuff (and I apologize if I have it wrong, Dean J) that UVA is getting pressure from the General Assembly to do this. You might want to write to your representative(s) there.</p>

<p>I hear you. I hope you get the transfer.</p>

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<p>As usual, Tarhunt is on target.</p>

<p>I love the VCCS students I've met, but as I wrote above, I think the pool is not increasing dramatically enough for all the state schools to have the numbers Richmond wants us to (there's a SHEV graph of projected vs. actual numbers somewhere). To my knowledge, the targets for the universities were not revised after those numbers came out.</p>

<p>VCCS isn't full of kids with 2.6 high school GPAs, by the way. My favorite interaction from last fall was at one of the more rural CCs. I met a 16 year old who had exhausted the curriculum at her home high school. They didn't know what to do with her other than send her to community college. She's finishing an Associates at seventeen! She was brilliant! Students like that are fairly normal at some of the more rural CCs. There's one CC I can think of where the kids pile into cars and go back and forth between the HS and the CC because they've taken all they can in certain subjects. They're the opposite of the students shoebox says to be at NOVA.</p>

<p>Just understand that while you may know the VCC in your area, you don't know the products of the entire system.</p>

72

<p>shoebox,</p>

<p>I don't know much about transfers, but you make a pretty good argument against the fallacies of the current system. Unfortunately, there are more voters in VA community colleges than there are in unhappy students at 4-year colleges who want to transfer. I think Tarhunt is right that the UVA administration had to pay a price to the General Assembly for the agreement to gain more operating autonomy. Unfortunately, it looks like students in circumstances like yours are being asked to pay the price. I second the suggestion to write your representative(s). </p>

<p>Also, thanks for cleaning up your posts and writing. It is now much easier to follow your thinking.</p>

73

<p>Dean J - Yes, I was in reference to the NoVa system for pretty much my entire arguement. That's also why I said that not all VCCS students will be like that. However, my interaction with NoVa students has been pretty mediocore. The friends that I had that attend there now where on a totally different academic level than me all throughout high school, and now into college. Apperently, the transfer ageement isn't widely known there, for somewhat of that reason. Again, the VCCS system is 100% high school failures. There are always those who just cannot afford a 4-yr school, and there are those like you mentioned above. But on average, I think it's safe to assume that a majority of those in the VCCS would not be at UVa, VT, or W&M simply because their high school scores wouldnt cut it. However, why should someone who has the resources in HS to take as many APs as they want, and not be forced to go to CC, be penalized in the end? They'll have the credentials to get into a 4-yr, but if they decide to transfer, they'll be hurt in the end by the agreement because their high school has enough courses that they didn't have to enroll in a CC. Its almost like its a complete reversal from previous years: student's with poor high schools were being somewhat penalized, while student's with top-notch high schools we're getting an edge. Now, those students at the lesser schools are getting the upperhand by being able to take CC courses.
I have a question regarding something you said however. You stated that ["I think the pool is not increasing dramatically enough for all the state schools to have the numbers Richmond wants us to (there's a SHEV graph of projected vs. actual numbers somewhere). To my knowledge, the targets for the universities were not revised after those numbers came out."]. Does this mean that there are very few CC students applying under the agreement thus far?</p>

<p>dajada - My biggest concern is that UVa/VT/W&M are simply lowering their standards. I understand that GA wants more and more instate students in their schools. Fine, I support that, 110%. I love Virginia, I support the measures it takes to support the education systems, and after graduating from one of the top counties in VA (Fairfax County) I feel priviledged. Just like I do at VT. However, if the schools are so worried about admitting a certain number of IS students, then they should also focus on the IS students tranferring from other schools. They may actually lead to better numbers for the univeristies, which is mostly what they seem to care about. Instead, the 60% of VCCS students they want to accept by 2009-2010 will leave a mere 6.66% for other IS students from 4-years, which is insane. Especially if they have higher numbers. And if they make an agreement with the other schools, namely engineering, how can they compare a VCCS "engineering" Assoc.D with a student from somewhere like VT? Even with a lower GPA (as long as its above a 3.0), I would assume the VT student will do better. This entire thing is just insane. If these schools are so worried about rankings, this whole agreement will just tank them. It seems like the agreement is just a way for the GA to ensure more IS students attend these schools, which is fine. I just think theres a better way to attract IS students. Have the agreement, but say it's not guarenteed admission, just a very increased priority. Or extend the agreement to other public schools. Say, a 3.4 VCCS or 3.0 from other 4-yr publics is guarenteed. Theres ways to increase IS admission, and this agreement is not it.
Also, thanks for letting me know I should clear them up. I've noticed less people are attacking my posts, which is nice =P I have a tendency to just go on and on when i'm writing, then I go back and edit accordingly. This lets me have all of my ideas down, but then I go and fix and put them together. I blew through my posts, so I never got to that second step =P</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE]
Does this mean that there are very few CC students applying under the agreement thus far?

[/QUOTE]
That conclusion can't be made. As you know, the transfer admission deadline is March 1st.</p>

<p>All I said was that a target was made when the projected rates were at X. When the actual rate was less than X, I did not hear about the target being adjusted.</p>

<p>Of course, I'm not the transfer dean. There may be something in the works of which I'm not aware.</p>

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<p>Dean J - I guess I still don't understand your comment. Did they expect a certain amount of CC transfers to enter, and they didnt? Or did they set the standards the way they did, and thus when fewer transfers enrolled, they still did not adjust the standards? Or does Richmond expect a certain number of these transfers to enroll, and the number is not being met, and thus Richmond still hasn't changed anything?
Sorry for the hassle, I'm just not seeing what you're addressing.</p>

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<p>Everyone at NOVA isn't a failure either. Just because they went to community college? Some people can't afford college. Some people need to help out their families. Most people in NoVa may be rich (in comparision to the rest of the country anyway) but not everyone is and not everyone here exists in the bubble of privilege that most of us are lucky to have. </p>

<p>I'd be interested to see how some of these statements pan out. Do the CC transfers really fail out and ruin UVa? I would imagine that the people transferring from CC are generally ambitious people who chose to make use of the CC first because that was the best option for them. Let me tell you, I have not heard ONE person EVER say anything to the effect of "Oh, I should screw around, then go to NOVA and get into UVa directly." Uh uh. That's not what's going on here. </p>

<p>I don't think the generalizations are really necessary. Do you consider there might have been a significant reason for their lack of high school success that might require them to need some more time for a second chance? Address problems in the system, but don't generalize. This is just so typical of people from Northern Va. Everyone at CC is a joke and failure. You know, they could have just not gone anywhere. They're choosing to try to turn their lives around, or they're doing the best they can. I never really see any of the typical privileged NoVa kids going to CC, maybe they should consider that without the tutors, SAT classes, and activities that money can buy, they might be in the same place.</p>

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<p>Shoebox:</p>

<p>I believe Dean J is saying that UVa and other schools made arrangements with the state to increase the enrollment of community college transfers by certain amounts each year. The agreed to amounts, or targets, were based on projections (probably the expected number of community college graduates each year). Dean J indicates that the actual numbers turned out to be less than the projected numbers. Therefore, UVa may have some basis to seek a reduction in its target for community college transfers this year. However, she does not know if UVa’s targets have been, or if they will be, reduced.</p>

<p>From everything I have seen, this policy is not UVa’s decision. It appears that the legislature is requiring the state’s universities to accept more community college transfers. I don’t think this policy has anything to do with instate enrollment. The article suggests that the legislature sees this as a cost saving issue – the state saves money if students attend community college for their first two years.</p>

<p>Of course, there are other issues involved, which is why everyone suggests that you contact your legislators.</p>

<p>I again wish you the best of luck.</p>

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<p>This automatic CC admissions scheme is very bad for recruitment of highly qualified students. My kid was initially interested in UVa. His face had a real look of alarm when he discovered this scheme. For that and other reasons, he applied and now attends outside of Virginia.</p>

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<p>Princedog -
1) I didn't say everyone. I know there are people who just simply can't afford college and chose that route. I did point that out too. I'm just saying that why let someone else in to such a great university when they've worked hard for a couple of years over someone else who has busted butt for 5, or 6? I just think they should look at the caliber of school a bit more. Sorry if you interpreted it that way, I did not mean to totally bash all NoVa students. But stereotypes exist based on a majority.
2) I don't think all CCers will bring down the average just because they're CCers, that was not my point. But if they're trying to bring in 60% CCers, then that leaves 6-7% roughly for other IS students, and there might be more IS students from other schools with high GPA/scores/better records than the CCers. Is that fair to them? I'm not saying UVa's caliber will go down. It just might be much lower than it could be. Also, I would assume a 3.4 from a 4-yr that is somewhat on par to UVa (not some no-name school) would be more used to the rigors of UVa, therefor overall do better than the 3.4 CCer. It's common sense really.</p>

<p>My point is that I applaud the state for trying to help CCers in state institutions. I just don't think it should be a 'guarenteed' admissions deal, especially when we have such high caliber schools in VA. I think, instead, they should set a quota for IS transfers and take the best from 4-yr and CCs. My 3.2 in engineering at VT is much better than a 3.4, or even 3.6, from a VCCS, simply because you can't get the same type of education from a CC as somewhere like VT. Much like an art major, I think a 3.2 from VCU art school is better than a 3.6 from VCCS, just because its a school that focuses on art, thus making a student more prepared. I guess thats why they've limited the transfers to CAS for now.</p>

<p>Don't get me wrong, I think students can use a CC to fix their high school mistakes and do well in life. I just don't agree with the automatic admission when there are more qualified transfers out there, even though they have a slightly lower GPA.</p>

<p>super.nova - thanks for clearing that up! Thats what I figured she meant, it was just confusing because so many posts were being made. Frankly, everything these days is about money. It's really sad too, especially when the GA is financing the schools only 8% of their budget. I think this should be left up to the schools, and I really hope UVa takes the inciative. It just does not look promising, and it angers me.</p>

<p>PS- i plan on drafting a letter this weekend to both my Rep and Senator. If anyone has any suggestions, or comments they would like me to include, please feel free to post whatever =) I think that the response will be interesting, and i'll be sure to post both my letter and the responses accordingly. Thanks for the support from everyone, I really hope I can transfer successfully. Everytime i'm at UVa, or look at the SEAS dept. website, I fall more and more in love with it.</p>

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<p>The guaranteed admissions probably doesn't apply to the engineering school. The prereqs appear to be exclusively for CLAS. Also, as I've already said, the admissions office has indicated that CC students with 3.4s and all prereqs are practically guaranteed admits in the first place, and they perform on a better level than the average student at UVA that was admitted from high school.</p>

<p>I think there's a big misinterpretation that the IS students who got into UVA from high school are these really bright kids that would outperform some 'lowly' CC transfer. This is not the case. Most students at UVA would probably fair no better in a CC- they really are not amazingly intelligent. If you want to improve the quality of UVA, then halve the size of the school and you'd get rid of the people who drag it down. Why don't we just do that? It's because we're a state school, and we're designed to serve the state. It's the same deal with this program.</p>